Resolve, Strength vs Might and Casting Time

[divjak]

 

 

I don’t think cast time issue should be fixed by any attributes, it needs to be fixed by itself, from its own mechanism.

 

If a fireball has same power as Minoletta’s Bounding Missile, then they have to be at same cast time. Now they are not. If a level 1 Spell is as strong as a level 3 Spell, then it should has longer cast or recovery time, versa vice.

 

I don’t think fix a problem by changing another feature is a good idea.

I think it depends on how you view casting time in general. Personally I see it as a new mechanic, as casting time wasn't at all the same in PoE 1. If they've removed a mechanic that effected casting time originally (interrupts being ubiquitous), and removed an advantage that went along with that mechanic from an attribute (Concentration), to me it makes logical sense that Resolve should now benefit from a new advantage that reflects the mechanistic changes that have been made in PoE 2 (longer casting time).

Honestly I prefer they first fix cast time inconsistency. Then add whatever spell bonus to Res.

 

Any test or playthrough or feeling is based on a unpolished spell system now, which is inaccurate. Like we all feel fireball and summon spell takes years to cast, but spells like Bounding Missile are Ok to me. They are powerful and has a fair cast time.

 

its not inconsistency, but balancing, fireball and summons have the bigger effect on battle than magic missile, only cast time i feel is off  is for conjured melee weapons 

Edited January 7, 2018 by divjak

[Jojobobo]

I agree to an extent. The devs wanted casting times to be longer and that’s fair; however, you can’t lengthen them to the point they aren’t fun anymore (as is currently the case) and then just put there a stat to ameliorate it. That’s poor design. The stat would be an absolute must-pump for all casters if they wanted to contribute anything to a fight before melee mopped the floor.

 

Casting times should be adjusted on their own. If you then want to have a stat influence them, it can be done though I expect balancing to be pretty tricky.

I agree there definitely needs to be adjustment to casting times whether or not benefit was added, and I'm sure there will be at some point.

 

In terms of it being poor design to tack on a benefit to a stat, I think that's a fairly subjective point. You could say for the sake of argument that Concentration was tacked onto to Resolve in PoE 1 to deal with the interrupts for example. Certainly when accuracy was added to Perception, it isn't became a stat you couldn't realistically dump on 90% of builds in PoE 1.

 

I would also say that arguably now Resolve is a must pump for casters due to the damage benefit, so changing the manner in which it's a must pump doesn't really change things too much in my opinion.

 

I guess for implementing all of this, how balance would be achieved is:

 

1) Adjust casting times first so they feel innately balanced.

 

2) Introduce the Resolve casting benefit, and if it's too powerful, iterate until it feels better (with the original casting times already giving a guideline).

 

3) Possibly consider making it so you could dump a little out of Resolve and make up for it to an extent in Dex to better enable weapon-summoning characters to do their thing.

 

As you say though, this is a very complicated and resource intensive balancing act. However, I would still massively prefer it to the very lazy current implementation of Resolve, where they just moved benefits from Might into it and said "job done". Regardless of how anyone subjectively feels about Strength vs. Might, it doesn't objectively appear to be nuanced mechanics building to just shift benefits from Might into Resolve.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Jojobobo

[divjak]

resolve is not pumping casters for damage benefit, cause now if they wont to do damage with weapons, including wands, scepters, or rod, they need strength for that as well.

 

Resolve now splits focus of a build, as for pure offensive caster you need both strength and resolve,which is why the new system is mechanically weaker, now if you pump res and dump might, you'll have more deflection, and weaker attacks, yaaay

 

 

also messes up some classes like chipers, all in all its a bad decision, based on the outcry from some DnD fans, that made this game far less interesting mechanically.

Game is now mechanically weaker   

 

 

 

 

as for cast times, spells are now per encounter, having fast fireballs spam every battle would take any difficulty from the game, now its not a problem, people who dont like to be challenged, can play on easy 

Edited January 7, 2018 by divjak

[Wormerine]

that's true, but I think they included describing might as some form of spiritual strength just to appease to people with preconceived notion that for magic you dont need any form of fitness.

 

Might over strength system is way more robust and customizable system, which why I think is mechanically stronger and thus better for the game

As may it be, it caused confusion. I saw multiple people claim that might represents “strength of your soul”. I am not sure where that came from - I assume pre release explanation. Those are sort of issues which come up when you try to appease everyone - everyone will find some issue with the system because it is not fully committed to anything.

 

I like might as a combat system and over all, I agree but because I am a pain in the butt I will have to try and make a correction: might was more elegant and clear. But it wasn’t more customisable. Strength/resolve gives character building more nuance by separating physical and ability power. It allows you to create character which is strong in both AND differentiate each other (he is spiritually strong priest and can heal a bunch but not strong physically in combat). As such I would say strength/resolve has more nuance and gives more character possibilities. Whenever the advantage it gives is worth the change to strait forward system of PoE1 - I am not so sure.

[Jojobobo]

as for cast times, spells are now per encounter, having fast fireballs spam every battle would take any difficulty from the game, now its not a problem, people who dont like to be challenged, can play on easy 

I always play on PotD solo in PoE 1, so I'm well aware of challenge. Introduction of a benefit doesn't mean that the benefit is broken if casting times are adjusted in accordance to that benefit. Further, the way Dexterity is currently implemented means that there's diminishing returns in buffing it higher - see this PoE 1 post. Casting speed would be implemented I would say by the same system, and as buffing it is asymptotic there's no way you're ever going to become a complete spell-spamming machine by this system.

 

I like might as a combat system and over all, I agree but because I am a pain in the butt I will have to try and make a correction: might was more elegant and clear. But it wasn’t more customisable. Strength/resolve gives character building more nuance by separating physical and ability power. It allows you to create character which is strong in both AND differentiate each other (he is spiritually strong priest and can heal a bunch but not strong physically in combat). As such I would say strength/resolve has more nuance and gives more character possibilities. Whenever the advantage it gives is worth the change to strait forward system of PoE1 - I am not so sure.

I think this is all entirely subjective, as to me the new system is more simplified - not less.

 

While it's true that weapon-summoning casters are going to need both Strength and Resolve, this is going to be a minority of character builds. This is because (a) it's already a little bit of a niche concept to begin with and (b) it's now discouraged by the mechanics as inherently having to split between Strength and Resolve makes you more divided and likely less damaging strong than a pure caster or a pure melee/ranged weapon guy - unless they make summoned weapons crazy strong, but that's also not a good approach to game balance.

 

Therefore you now have a system where nuanced builds slip between the cracks for a lot of people, as they lack power, and 95% of builds will be dumping one stat or the other. This has now removed a complication from character building, and by providing a dump stat weirdly it allows for you to have a greater effective pool of character points to easily play with in character creation - which has far reaching implications for overall game balance when you think of it.

 

I think objectively they've made a lot more problems for themselves than they realise with making the change, though I guess that's maybe why they're beta testing it so they can get a feel for how these changes play out.

[Wormerine]

 

I like might as a combat system and over all, I agree but because I am a pain in the butt I will have to try and make a correction: might was more elegant and clear. But it wasn’t more customisable. Strength/resolve gives character building more nuance by separating physical and ability power. It allows you to create character which is strong in both AND differentiate each other (he is spiritually strong priest and can heal a bunch but not strong physically in combat). As such I would say strength/resolve has more nuance and gives more character possibilities. Whenever the advantage it gives is worth the change to strait forward system of PoE1 - I am not so sure.

I think this is all entirely subjective, as to me the new system is more simplified - not less.

 

While it's true that weapon-summoning casters are going to need both Strength and Resolve, this is going to be a minority of character builds. This is because (a) it's already a little bit of a niche concept to begin with and (b) it's now discouraged by the mechanics as inherently having to split between Strength and Resolve makes you more divided and likely less damaging strong than a pure caster or a pure melee/ranged weapon guy - unless they make summoned weapons crazy strong, but that's also not a good approach to game balance.

 

Therefore you now have a system where nuanced builds slip between the cracks for a lot of people, as they lack power, and 95% of builds will be dumping one stat or the other. This has now removed a complication from character building, and by providing a dump stat weirdly it allows for you to have a greater effective pool of character points to easily play with in character creation - which has far reaching implications for overall game balance when you think of it.

 

I think objectively they've made a lot more problems for themselves than they realise with making the change, though I guess that's maybe why they're beta testing it so they can get a feel for how these changes play out.

Do you need resolve for weapon oriented wizard build? Deflection helps, spell damage isn't needed (I might completely miss how mechanics work with this update but summoned weapons aren't affected by resolve, right?). Staff is long range weapon allowing to attack from behind tanks, there is also a ranged AOE summoned weapon. which is really effective. I do feel some balancing need to happen (too long summon time for weapons) but it works. 

 

I do believe str/res make characer building more convoluted (figuring what your class will benefit from most when doing damage is more difficult to figure out now) but it does bring new possible depth to tactical combat. That statement is made assuming that what we have is first concept test rather than a working system. If Obsidian would commit to stick to str/res some serious rebalancing is required. I find idea of str/res especially apprealing with presence of multiclassing. 

 

My worry regarding str/res is not if its worse and better, but if current ability and class design can handle that change. Are classes benefit enough from both str and res to favour those abilities. Does str wizard have enough spells to make him interesting (combined with int based spells I would say yes). 

 

This system plays more into how I plan my party. If I build my wizard around hard hitting spells I probably won't plan on using him as a weapon DPS - its just not his role in the party. I am confused by people who are upset that their battlemage won't be hitting hard in melee AND hitting hard with fireballs, because it is not how I would design my character - those are two seperate roles which overlap rather than compliment each other. But that's just a way I think.

[Jojobobo]

Do you need resolve for weapon oriented wizard build? Deflection helps, spell damage isn't needed (I might completely miss how mechanics work with this update but summoned weapons aren't affected by resolve, right?). Staff is long range weapon allowing to attack from behind tanks, there is also a ranged AOE summoned weapon. which is really effective. I do feel some balancing need to happen (too long summon time for weapons) but it works. 

I think with Wizards having a huge repertoire of spells to use, even if you want to make the main focus on summoned-weapons people will still want to be using spells too. I know when I play PoE 1 with a melee centric Wizard, I will always be using offensive spells too.

 

Besides, if a melee Wizard is just going for Strength, that makes the issue of a known dump stat worse not better. It would mean there's truly very few situations where many classes would take both Strength and Resolve, with the exception being I guess a melee tank.

[Ninjamestari]

Something that has always bothered me about the classic intelligence wizard of DnD is that they are supposed to be the smartest character in the room by the way of their meta-game reliance upon intelligence for the basic premise of their class to function, and yet the vast majority of wizards that I've played with or role-played as approach their issues by exploding them with fire, which strikes me as a very simple solution for a character that is supposed to be the most intelligent person most people will ever know. 

 

Intelligent people like blowing stuff up, as it is usually the most efficient method of dealing with a problem. I mean, intelligent people have been coming up with more powerful ways to blow **** up for all of human history, and we've come up with some pretty powerful stuff. The simple solution is usually the intelligent solution. Only an idiot would begin to waste time doing an elaborate plan if they have the capacity to just blow **** up; cunning is the last resort of an intelligent mind, and the first resort of a dishonest one.

[Akos]

 

Something that has always bothered me about the classic intelligence wizard of DnD is that they are supposed to be the smartest character in the room by the way of their meta-game reliance upon intelligence for the basic premise of their class to function, and yet the vast majority of wizards that I've played with or role-played as approach their issues by exploding them with fire, which strikes me as a very simple solution for a character that is supposed to be the most intelligent person most people will ever know. 

 

Intelligent people like blowing stuff up, as it is usually the most efficient method of dealing with a problem. I mean, intelligent people have been coming up with more powerful ways to blow **** up for all of human history, and we've come up with some pretty powerful stuff. The simple solution is usually the intelligent solution. Only an idiot would begin to waste time doing an elaborate plan if they have the capacity to just blow **** up; cunning is the last resort of an intelligent mind, and the first resort of a dishonest one.

 

Not really true. Intelligent people build their bomb, or tool, or weapon, and then someone with far less intelligence but a significant more amount of might misuses their invention to further their aspirations. The Wright Brothers probably didn't envision the B-52 bomber, Albert Noel thought Dynamite would be a peaceful deterrent, Einstein was under the false impression that the American people were better equipped to morally handle Atomic weapons for the safety of the world. Often times the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and there are many examples throughout recent history of great strides in scientific engineering that are then used by lesser men with a greater capacity for violence. It's a very interesting subject, but definitely not in line with the point I was trying to make. 

 

I could try to be more more clear with my argument: A strong character can rely on using strong explosive magic, but lacking the Intelligent for using crowd control spells effectively he likely wouldn't consider their implementation since he lacks the long term strategy of a more Intelligent mind. An Intelligent mage without the physical power to unleash a torrent of fireballs would likely prefer to divide and conquer his adversary by using his magic so that fireball mage can more effectively do his thing; After all there's always that annoying dextrous rogue that just nimbly dodges all of your super powered fireballs. You could certainly have a powerful wizard who is also very intelligent and thus has more options available as well, although the way the game is set up this means you'd need to have to give up something else to make that kind of character. My point is that these characters are available to us with the way Might is in PoE, but muscle mage loses his identity and purpose if wizards have no want of strength. Might as it is now gives us greater role playing options. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Akos

[Wormerine]

I think with Wizards having a huge repertoire of spells to use, even if you want to make the main focus on summoned-weapons people will still want to be using spells too. I know when I play PoE 1 with a melee centric Wizard, I will always be using offensive spells too.

 

 

Besides, if a melee Wizard is just going for Strength, that makes the issue of a known dump stat worse not better. It would mean there's truly very few situations where many classes would take both Strength and Resolve, with the exception being I guess a melee tank.

Yeah, but there are plenty protection, debuff spells to use, which don't benefit from resolve. In case of summoned weapon mage Investing in resolve is benefitial, but so is dexterity, perception, intelligence and constitution (the least in my opinion) and that is the goal no?

 

Similarly, every specialized build will have a dump stat. I don't think the goal is to make every stat important to every build, but to have every attribute interact with the class in a way that makes it possible to build around said attribute with said class. The problem with resolve is that spellcaster just didn't benefit from it at all. Whatever you wanted to do, it was a dump stat. 

 

Still, my worry stays - do classes have enough variety in them to support both str and res builds.

[hilfazer]

 

Similarly, every specialized build will have a dump stat. I don't think the goal is to make every stat important to every build

 

 

It's not. Builds are about focusing on some stuff while giving up on other.

It's enough if a stat is useful to a class.

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

I don’t think cast time issue should be fixed by any attributes, it needs to be fixed by itself, from its own mechanism.

 

If a fireball has same power as Minoletta’s Bounding Missile, then they have to be at same cast time. Now they are not. If a level 1 Spell is as strong as a level 3 Spell, then it should has longer cast or recovery time, versa vice.

 

I don’t think fix a problem by changing another feature is a good idea.

I think it depends on how you view casting time in general. Personally I see it as a new mechanic, as casting time wasn't at all the same in PoE 1. If they've removed a mechanic that effected casting time originally (interrupts being ubiquitous), and removed an advantage that went along with that mechanic from an attribute (Concentration), to me it makes logical sense that Resolve should now benefit from a new advantage that reflects the mechanistic changes that have been made in PoE 2 (longer casting time).

Honestly I prefer they first fix cast time inconsistency. Then add whatever spell bonus to Res.

 

Any test or playthrough or feeling is based on a unpolished spell system now, which is inaccurate. Like we all feel fireball and summon spell takes years to cast, but spells like Bounding Missile are Ok to me. They are powerful and has a fair cast time.

 

its not inconsistency, but balancing, fireball and summons have the bigger effect on battle than magic missile, only cast time i feel is off  is for conjured melee weapons 

 

 

I mentioned Minoletta's Bounding Missile, not magic missile If there are like 3 or less enemy left in the battle, Bounding Missile will be superior to Fireball for sure, and it is devastating if you empower it. So I say fireball and bounding missile are of a same power level. And I didn't mention summon in my post

Edited January 7, 2018 by dunehunter

[Ninjamestari]

 

 

Something that has always bothered me about the classic intelligence wizard of DnD is that they are supposed to be the smartest character in the room by the way of their meta-game reliance upon intelligence for the basic premise of their class to function, and yet the vast majority of wizards that I've played with or role-played as approach their issues by exploding them with fire, which strikes me as a very simple solution for a character that is supposed to be the most intelligent person most people will ever know. 

 

Intelligent people like blowing stuff up, as it is usually the most efficient method of dealing with a problem. I mean, intelligent people have been coming up with more powerful ways to blow **** up for all of human history, and we've come up with some pretty powerful stuff. The simple solution is usually the intelligent solution. Only an idiot would begin to waste time doing an elaborate plan if they have the capacity to just blow **** up; cunning is the last resort of an intelligent mind, and the first resort of a dishonest one.

 

Not really true. Intelligent people build their bomb, or tool, or weapon, and then someone with far less intelligence but a significant more amount of might misuses their invention to further their aspirations. The Wright Brothers probably didn't envision the B-52 bomber, Albert Noel thought Dynamite would be a peaceful deterrent, Einstein was under the false impression that the American people were better equipped to morally handle Atomic weapons for the safety of the world. Often times the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and there are many examples throughout recent history of great strides in scientific engineering that are then used by lesser men with a greater capacity for violence. It's a very interesting subject, but definitely not in line with the point I was trying to make. 

 

I could try to be more more clear with my argument: A strong character can rely on using strong explosive magic, but lacking the Intelligent for using crowd control spells effectively he likely wouldn't consider their implementation since he lacks the long term strategy of a more Intelligent mind. An Intelligent mage without the physical power to unleash a torrent of fireballs would likely prefer to divide and conquer his adversary by using his magic so that fireball mage can more effectively do his thing; After all there's always that annoying dextrous rogue that just nimbly dodges all of your super powered fireballs. You could certainly have a powerful wizard who is also very intelligent and thus has more options available as well, although the way the game is set up this means you'd need to have to give up something else to make that kind of character. My point is that these characters are available to us with the way Might is in PoE, but muscle mage loses his identity and purpose if wizards have no want of strength. Might as it is now gives us greater role playing options. 

 

 

Intelligence doesn't exclude the capacity for violence, our cowardly culture simply is so afraid of it that everyone has to pretend like they don't enjoy using force. Some people pretend so hard that they begin to believe that lie themselves, but it's all bull****. Winning a conflict always brings in a rush of happiness for everyone, and if that conflict is physical, the rush is even more powerful. It's simply our basic biology at work, and it is a universal phenomenon in pretty much all animals, including us humans. Also, if you think that intelligent people don't like to blow **** up, then you really haven't met many intelligent people. Also, an intelligent character definitely wouldn't consider using crowd control against enemies he can simply kill with a thought, you're confusing a very specific interpretation of moral virtue with intelligence here.

 

That being said, Might doesn't give greater role-playing options, as it excludes the character that is weak physically but wields considerable magical might. It restricts us to playing the muscle-wizard. I've got nothing against the idea of using physical strength in better channeling magical powers in other contexts, but the whole idea behind a spell is that it's arcane, it is secret knowledge, that gives it power, not muscle mass. I've got nothing against special talents that let you utilize Strength for spells in some way, or specific spells that for example conjure a powerful force-field that you need physical strength to manage properly, but that can be just as easily done with spell/talent design without sacrificing the traditional mage.

[Jojobobo]

 

I think with Wizards having a huge repertoire of spells to use, even if you want to make the main focus on summoned-weapons people will still want to be using spells too. I know when I play PoE 1 with a melee centric Wizard, I will always be using offensive spells too.

 

 

Besides, if a melee Wizard is just going for Strength, that makes the issue of a known dump stat worse not better. It would mean there's truly very few situations where many classes would take both Strength and Resolve, with the exception being I guess a melee tank.

Yeah, but there are plenty protection, debuff spells to use, which don't benefit from resolve. In case of summoned weapon mage Investing in resolve is benefitial, but so is dexterity, perception, intelligence and constitution (the least in my opinion) and that is the goal no?

 

Similarly, every specialized build will have a dump stat. I don't think the goal is to make every stat important to every build, but to have every attribute interact with the class in a way that makes it possible to build around said attribute with said class. The problem with resolve is that spellcaster just didn't benefit from it at all. Whatever you wanted to do, it was a dump stat. 

 

Still, my worry stays - do classes have enough variety in them to support both str and res builds.

I would say spellcasters did benefit from it, just that they did so the least. Partially spells like Spirit Shield and Crowns for the Faithful compromised the original interrupt mechanic in PoE 1 but giving both Wizards and Priests an easy way to dump it.

 

I'm still not convinced on the Resolve/Strength split, or even if it is the best possible option I think it's still good to trial options like Resolve factoring into spell-casting and see if it plays better - even if it is a resource intensive approach. If anything it would make it clearer that Resolve/Strength is the best possible option moving forward - but it's difficult for anyone to be objective about the new system without an appropriate alternative to compare it to (seeing as Resolve sucked at the start of the beta, I don't consider that a valid comparison).

[illathid]

 

 

what's wrong with muscle-bound mages? 

 

 

Everything

 

 

Sounds like a personal problem to me. Maybe you didn't get enough practice with your IMAGINATION as a child?

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ninjamestari]

 

Sounds like a personal problem to me. Maybe you didn't get enough practice with your IMAGINATION as a child?

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

Actually I did, I also gained the wisdom to realize that not everything that comes out of an IMAGINATION is gold, most things it produces are actually quite stupid. Muscle mages being one of those things.

[Akos]

 

Intelligence doesn't exclude the capacity for violence, our cowardly culture simply is so afraid of it that everyone has to pretend like they don't enjoy using force. Some people pretend so hard that they begin to believe that lie themselves, but it's all bull****. Winning a conflict always brings in a rush of happiness for everyone, and if that conflict is physical, the rush is even more powerful. It's simply our basic biology at work, and it is a universal phenomenon in pretty much all animals, including us humans. Also, if you think that intelligent people don't like to blow **** up, then you really haven't met many intelligent people. Also, an intelligent character definitely wouldn't consider using crowd control against enemies he can simply kill with a thought, you're confusing a very specific interpretation of moral virtue with intelligence here.

 

That being said, Might doesn't give greater role-playing options, as it excludes the character that is weak physically but wields considerable magical might. It restricts us to playing the muscle-wizard. I've got nothing against the idea of using physical strength in better channeling magical powers in other contexts, but the whole idea behind a spell is that it's arcane, it is secret knowledge, that gives it power, not muscle mass. I've got nothing against special talents that let you utilize Strength for spells in some way, or specific spells that for example conjure a powerful force-field that you need physical strength to manage properly, but that can be just as easily done with spell/talent design without sacrificing the traditional mage.

 

 

There is a massively different emotional response to winning a video game vs blowing up an entire culture and watching as people helplessly squirm to death. While your theories on humanity are interesting, thousands upon thousands of case reports on PTSD and the effect killing other people has upon the human psyche would tend to disagree with your ideas on what you consider a casual sociopathic nature of man.

 

You seem to be under the impression that damage > crowd control, but this is definitely not the case within this game. Lobbing a fireball at an enemy without lowering his defenses means he's going to shrug it off. The intelligence wizard is still *very* powerful. 

 

I suppose the exact nature of magic is up to the person defining the game; although I'd go back to my argument about the in-game definition of Might and the way that it is treated as my example for why damage is determined by strength and not intelligence. My point still remains that both a Might and Intelligence based caster both have a purpose in this system. Bookworm mage still thrives. Your proposal wishes for only bookworm mage to thrive at the expense of all other role playing options. I'm definitely not in favor of this, and am in fact quite tired of being tied to only a single option for role playing the tired wizard archetype. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Akos

[Ninjamestari]

It's not the killing part that causes PTSD, it's the constant fear of death and the utter inability to relax even for a moment. And plenty of those PTSD soldiers actually miss being in a battle. Men are warriors by nature, violence and killing is part of what we are, and denying that leads to these pathetic whiny excuses we call men these days. True manhood is forged in the fires of life, and violence and death and war are an essential part of that fire. Even our current pax americana that seems to be coming to an end slowly is built upon the capability to inflict unimaginable violence, yet war adapts and people find new ways to bring their enemies down. Only the foolish, naive and the weak actually believe that progress means moving away from our violent natures, when reality is quite the opposite, our capacity for violence and overall death and destruction has never been greater than it is now.

 

I really don't get this attitude you have against archetypes, the wizard is a universal archetype that exists in reality as well. Not as far as magic and spellcasting go in the mythical sense, but in the sense that the learned and intelligent men create stuff that might as well be magic from the perspective of the common man. Magic is not a feat of the body, it has never been, it has always been a feat of the mind, and I have no idea why anyone would want it to be otherwise, other than to be an even more pretentious hipster stuttering around proclaiming how 'different' one is. Different =/= good.

[Boeroer]

There is a massively different emotional response to winning a video game vs blowing up an entire culture and watching as people helplessly squirm to death. While your theories on humanity are interesting, thousands upon thousands of case reports on PTSD and the effect killing other people has upon the human psyche would tend to disagree with your ideas on what you consider a casual sociopathic nature of man.

You seem to be under the impression that damage > crowd control, but this is definitely not the case within this game. Lobbing a fireball at an enemy without lowering his defenses means he's going to shrug it off. The intelligence wizard is still *very* powerful. 

 

I suppose the exact nature of magic is up to the person defining the game; although I'd go back to my argument about the in-game definition of Might and the way that it is treated as my example for why damage is determined by strength and not intelligence. My point still remains that both a Might and Intelligence based caster both have a purpose in this system. Bookworm mage still thrives. Your proposal wishes for only bookworm mage to thrive at the expense of all other role playing options. I'm definitely not in favor of this, and am in fact quite tired of being tied to only a single option for role playing the tired wizard archetype. 

 

Huh? Who are you and when did you emerge? Doesn't matter though - I like your style!

Edited January 9, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

It's not the killing part that causes PTSD, it's the constant fear of death and the utter inability to relax even for a moment. And plenty of those PTSD soldiers actually miss being in a battle. Men are warriors by nature, violence and killing is part of what we are, and denying that leads to these pathetic whiny excuses we call men these days. True manhood is forged in the fires of life, and violence and death and war are an essential part of that fire. Even our current pax americana that seems to be coming to an end slowly is built upon the capability to inflict unimaginable violence, yet war adapts and people find new ways to bring their enemies down. Only the foolish, naive and the weak actually believe that progress means moving away from our violent natures, when reality is quite the opposite, our capacity for violence and overall death and destruction has never been greater than it is now.

 

I really don't get this attitude you have against archetypes, the wizard is a universal archetype that exists in reality as well. Not as far as magic and spellcasting go in the mythical sense, but in the sense that the learned and intelligent men create stuff that might as well be magic from the perspective of the common man. Magic is not a feat of the body, it has never been, it has always been a feat of the mind, and I have no idea why anyone would want it to be otherwise, other than to be an even more pretentious hipster stuttering around proclaiming how 'different' one is. Different =/= good.

What you wrote there is simply disgusting.

[vanyel54]

True manhood is forged in the fires of life, and violence and death

Only the foolish, naive and the weak actually believe that progress means moving away from our violent natures

 

Wow ! Is this your Bleak Walker / Barbarian character speaking or you ? Really terrible thoughts...

Count me in the weak and naive by the way.

 

Magic is not a feat of the body, it has never been

 

In POE1, Magic do not came from body. How many times do we have to say that there was no Muscle Wizard in POE1. Might wasn't Strength.

[Ninjamestari]

What you wrote there is simply disgusting.

 

Reality often is to those weak of mind. Only those who have seen, and accepted, the ugly side of life can truly appreciate its beauty, and often it comes with the realization that the 'ugly' side is the very reason life is so beautiful. Truly accepting the possibility of death as an outcome is the best cure for nihilism in the whole wide world, and the ugliness of the world tells us why our actions matter, there are no second chances and this life we have here is everything.

 

 

True manhood is forged in the fires of life, and violence and death

Only the foolish, naive and the weak actually believe that progress means moving away from our violent natures

 

Wow ! Is this your Bleak Walker / Barbarian character speaking or you ? Really terrible thoughts...

Count me in the weak and naive by the way.

 

Perhaps a Cipher/Bleak Walker ^^

 

In POE1, Magic do not came from body. How many times do we have to say that there was no Muscle Wizard in POE1. Might wasn't Strength.

 

But it does include Strength, and the more muscular Aumaua have more Might as their racial while the smaller creatures have a penalty to it. High Might means the character has both high physical strength and spiritual power, at least according to the in-game description. It really doesn't matter how many times you claim the opposite, it doesn't change what reads in the in-game description.

[Boeroer]

 

What you wrote there is simply disgusting.

Reality often is to those weak of mind. Only those who have seen, and accepted, the ugly side of life can truly appreciate its beauty, and often it comes with the realization that the 'ugly' side is the very reason life is so beautiful. Truly accepting the possibility of death as an outcome is the best cure for nihilism in the whole wide world, and the ugliness of the world tells us why our actions matter, there are no second chances and this life we have here is everything.

 

What does that have to do with that absolute shartload of cowplop about "true manhood" that you posted before? You wouldn't recognize true manhood even if it would bite you into your mankini.

[Ninjamestari]

What does that have to do with that absolute shartload of cowplop about "true manhood" that you posted before? You wouldn't recognize true manhood even if it would bite you into your mankini.

 

Awww... you're so cute. Our biological role is to die in battle, if it wasn't only about 1 man would be born for every 10 women.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Ninjamestari

[Boeroer]

Maybe your biological role is to die in battle. Although I guess you wouldn't be of much use in such an event.

My biological role is to die on my sofa with a cold beer after propagation. Which I already did thrice. So where's my beer?