Dexterity

[Dashel84]

Been combing the forums for this but keep coming up with the same answer...

 

What is the point of this stat? It seems to only affect action speed and not recovery time. With my (very basic tests) an extra 10 dex equals an extra swing about every 5 swings with an average speed weapon. (worse with a fast weapon?)

 

Which means it does what it says on the tin I guess - which means it does strictly less damage then might thanks to DR reduction. I can see it may be useful for a miniscule extra chance to proc status effects, but thats all.

 

It also increases casting speed which is the only use I see for it - melee character spells like pally are practically instant cast (or are!)

 

So am I right in thinking that paladin/barb/fighter/monk should never choose dex over might? Outside of stun-on-crit builds where the difference should still be minor?

[MasterCipher]

The math is not straightforward. DEX does affect recovery, but it's a coefficent applied to whatever recovery still remains after other more impactful modifiers like armor and weapon "haste". You can get away with skipping DEX on a lot of weapon focused builds - I'm in the process of dropping it from my fighter and paladin. Just be mindful of non weapon actions that will suffer like drinking potions, using scrolls, etc.

[Elric Galad]

Dex makes you act (1+ (3% × Dex)) faster, with few exceptions (mostly movement). It is obviously useful and quite straightforward. So it's more DPS, more buffs, more CC.

 

The most interesting is for DPS as it is basically ANOTHER MULTIPLICATIVE FACTOR that stacks with everything.

 

Its interest might be more limited for characters with limited ressource. But that's its only limit.

[Raven Darkholme]

Dex is not good, almost as bad as Constitution but slightly better.

Stuff like Durgan enchants and Alacrity are much more powerful.

Keep in mind, that if you get early Curio Shop and Botanic Garden in your stronghold you will have an almost unlimited supply of Alacrity potions.

[Kaylon]

Dex in theory adds a straightforward increase of your total DPS, however things are not that simple...

 

Here's an example:

 

Let's say your superb weapon does on average 20dmg every hit with 10mig/dex. With 20mig it will do 24dmg every hit instead - that's a 20% increase in dps.

Now if you increase your dex by 10 your dps will be increased by a straightforward 30% which is better than 20%...

 

But...

What happens when you hit an enemy with 15DR?

With 10mig/dex you'll do 5dmg/hit while with 20mig you"ll do 9dmg/hit - that's a 80% increase in dps from mig which is far better than the 30% increase from the dex...

[Jojobobo]

To add to what everyone else has said, Dexterity isn't as worthwhile in terms of DPS as lowering recovery through Two Weapon Style/Durgan enchants/weapon speed enchants/Armored Grace (kinda)/Gauntlets of Swift Action/Swift Aim/Lightning Strikes/Frenzy/Deleterious Alacrity of Motion.

 

Melee weapon attack have two phases, the attack itself and recovery. While Dexterity shortens both of these phases, it's hard to get Dexterity to such a level where its reduction of attack + recovery is greater than eliminating recovery entirely or almost entirely through a combination of what I mentioned above.

 

For more details on all of these, you should see one of the speed threads.

[Boeroer]

For a ranged caster however or a guy who wants to reload his gun as fast as possible, DEX is still a great stat. It's also not as bad for a chanter as everyone thinks. It reduces the recovery time after an invocation was used a lot. This can be very important, because you will stop singing chants for quite some time after an invocation. Pick up your singing quickly can be crucial.

It's also good for using scrolls quickly or drinking postions. A potion of Alacrity or a healing potion is of no use if you can't sip it quickly enough while getting interrupted.  

[Elric Galad]

To add to what everyone else has said, Dexterity isn't as worthwhile in terms of DPS as lowering recovery through Two Weapon Style/Durgan enchants/weapon speed enchants/Armored Grace (kinda)/Gauntlets of Swift Action/Swift Aim/Lightning Strikes/Frenzy/Deleterious Alacrity of Motion.

 

Melee weapon attack have two phases, the attack itself and recovery. While Dexterity shortens both of these phases, it's hard to get Dexterity to such a level where its reduction of attack + recovery is greater than eliminating recovery entirely or almost entirely through a combination of what I mentioned above.

 

For more details on all of these, you should see one of the speed threads.

Even if it's not false I don't get the point of comparing non-mutually exclusive stuff. Also it depends on how much Dex you compare. 10 Dex is better than speed gauntlet of course. 5 Dex may not be, unless you already have no recovery.

 

Dex vs Mig vs Per is the real question here. I tend to raise Dex for Characters who already have big damage modifiers such as Rogue or Cipher.

 

For fighter, I tend to balance Dex and Mig.

 

For Buffing priest, Dex is the second best stats after Int. Mig might be raised for healing or damage so Dex and Mig could be balanced.

 

For a versatile character, Dex is good because it applies to every action, from weapon swing to CC or buffs. Its drawback is limited ressources...

Edited June 16, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Raven Darkholme]

For a ranged caster however or a guy who wants to reload his gun as fast as possible, DEX is still a great stat. It's also not as bad for a chanter as everyone thinks. It reduces the recovery time after an invocation was used a lot. This can be very important, because you will stop singing chants for quite some time after an invocation. Pick up your singing quickly can be crucial.

It's also good for using scrolls quickly or drinking postions. A potion of Alacrity or a healing potion is of no use if you can't sip it quickly enough while getting interrupted.  

The problem with drinking potions is not getting interrupted and has nothing to do with Dex, the problem with drinking potions is the stupid day 1 PoE bug which still didn't get fixed, where you keep autoattacking, even tho auto attack isn't even switched on instead of drinking the damn potion. I got killed by that so many times but it's only annoying for healing potions, since you chuck all your buff potions before you even attack. Does anyone btw know how I disable that useless icon on my ability bar so my pocket slot is spammable again and I don't have to click on the icon everytime the AI ****ed my potion?

 

 

 

Dex vs Mig vs Per is the real question here. I tend to raise Dex for Characters who already have big damage modifiers such as Rogue or Cipher.

 

 

Why would that be the question? PER is a much better stat than DEX and Might lol.

[Jojobobo]

 

To add to what everyone else has said, Dexterity isn't as worthwhile in terms of DPS as lowering recovery through Two Weapon Style/Durgan enchants/weapon speed enchants/Armored Grace (kinda)/Gauntlets of Swift Action/Swift Aim/Lightning Strikes/Frenzy/Deleterious Alacrity of Motion.

 

Melee weapon attack have two phases, the attack itself and recovery. While Dexterity shortens both of these phases, it's hard to get Dexterity to such a level where its reduction of attack + recovery is greater than eliminating recovery entirely or almost entirely through a combination of what I mentioned above.

 

For more details on all of these, you should see one of the speed threads.

Even if it's not false I don't get the point of comparing non-mutually exclusive stuff. Also it depends on how much Dex you compare. 10 Dex is better than speed gauntlet of course. 5 Dex may not be, unless you already have no recovery.

 

Dex vs Mig vs Per is the real question here.

That's the point I was making, even if I didn't explicitly spell it out - by minimising recovery it's easier to shift points out of Dex (or at least, leave it base 10) and into something like Mig or Per as you get diminishing returns by taking both high Dex and minimising recovery, unless it's in the instances that Boeroer mentioned (spell/invocation casting, long reload ranged weapons) where Dex can be of greater value than just reducing recovery.

 

Quite possibly, there's a sweet spot where a combo of some of the recovery reducing items/abilities/talents and some dex is faster than either high dex or zero recovery - but it would take a more dedicated man than me to figure it out particularly with all the variables (reload times changing per weapon, different armour choices, etc.). In a simplistic melee example, zero recovery and more Mig/Per with base Dex seems the easiest way to go.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Elric Galad]

You're not getting diminushing return by stacking Dex and recovery because Dex is a multiplicative factor for DPS. You would get diminushing return if they weare additive.

 

For Per... I doubt it is stricly better. Per is like... 2% additive Damages per point (it depends a lot on situation) ? Worse than might. It is only valuable to avoid misses or for crit build. But as long as you have a priest to buff Acc, it will be important but not so critical.

 

There are builds for which Per is far better than Dex of course (crowd controllers) and a few for which Per is irrelevant (like a buffer/healer).

[Boeroer]

 

For a ranged caster however or a guy who wants to reload his gun as fast as possible, DEX is still a great stat. It's also not as bad for a chanter as everyone thinks. It reduces the recovery time after an invocation was used a lot. This can be very important, because you will stop singing chants for quite some time after an invocation. Pick up your singing quickly can be crucial.

It's also good for using scrolls quickly or drinking postions. A potion of Alacrity or a healing potion is of no use if you can't sip it quickly enough while getting interrupted.

The problem with drinking potions is not getting interrupted and has nothing to do with Dex.

 

Of course it has something to do with DEX. When you are able to sip the potion more quickly the chance of getting interrupted is decreasing - this is especially important if you fight enemies with high interrupt values but slow attacks, like Ogres. RES also helps a lot of course. If you can just shrug off the hit without being interrupted you can sip your potion more quickly - but with more DEX there's a chance that the enimation is finished before you even get hit. So - if drinking potions while standing in the centre of battle is your thing and you want to be the best at it () you need both high RES and DEX. I have exprience with this because I recently tried to kill Ogre mobs just with Battle Forged and potions of Flame Shield (pimped by Turning Wheel and Scion of Flame). It works by the way.

[Elric Galad]

You're not getting diminushing return by stacking Dex and recovery because Dex is a multiplicative factor for DPS. You would get diminushing return if they weare additive.

 

For Per... I doubt it is stricly better. Per is like... 2% additive Damages per point (it depends a lot on situation) ? Worse than Might. It is only valuable to avoid misses or for crit builds. But as long as you have a priest to buff Acc, it will be important but not so critical.

 

There are builds for which Per is far better than Dex of course (crowd controllers) and a few for which Per is irrelevant (like a buffer/healer).

[Boeroer]

You're not getting diminushing return by stacking Dex and recovery because Dex is a multiplicative factor for DPS. You would get diminushing return if they weare additive.

 

For Per... I doubt it is stricly better. Per is like... 2% additive Damages per point (it depends a lot on situation) ? Worse than might. It is only valuable to avoid misses or for crit build. But as long as you have a priest to buff Acc, it will be important but not so critical.

 

There are builds for which Per is far better than Dex of course (crowd controllers) and a few for which Per is irrelevant (like a buffer/healer).

PER is extremely important for any interrupt build - more than for crit builds. Other than that... it's impact on ACC is a bit overrated I think. Sure - early game it's great to have like +5 ACC - but there are many ways to buff ACC and it increases per level. So after some levels +5 ACC isn't a big deal any more. But for interrupts it's great throughout the whole game. 

[MaxQuest]

You're not getting diminushing return by stacking Dex and recovery because Dex is a multiplicative factor for DPS. You would get diminushing return if they weare additive.

Yes and no)

 

While it's true that speed increase provided by Dex is linear (i.e. at 20 DEX you get: x1.3, at 30 DEX you get x1.6, and so on).

The action duration decrease suffers from relative diminishing return.

Let's say that your action duration is 80 frames at 10 DEX.

At 20 DEX it is going to be 80/1.3 = 61.5

At 30 DEX it is going to be 80/1.6 = 50

 

So for first 10 DEX, we get an x1.3 increase (80/61.5)

And for next 10 DEX, we get an x1.23 increase (61.5/50)

 

Now, there is also inter-action delay, which becomes more relevant the lower your action duration is, and furthermore increases the diminishing effect.

 

P.S. Ofc all that doesn't mean that DEX is bad. It is still very important, but has to be mixed with other stats, such that you would get the highest value from all the bonuses being multiplied. It's like 5x5 > 4x6 > 3x7>and so on. The more balanced the stat spread is the better. But that point of balance shifts from build to build, as it spindles around abilities you use the most.

Edited June 16, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Elric Galad]

For sure, you'll get diminushing return for stacking Dex itself

 

My point was that Dex is as interesting when you have no recovery as when you have some. It will be exactly the same DPS multiplier in both cases.

 

And yes, when I wrote it I knew I was neglecting a bit inter action delays.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Elric Galad

[MaxQuest]

My point was that Dex is as interesting when you have no recovery as when you have some. It will be exactly the same DPS multiplier in both cases.

Understood now. And yeap, (inter-action delay aside) this is absolutely true Edited June 16, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

For a ranged caster however or a guy who wants to reload his gun as fast as possible, DEX is still a great stat. It's also not as bad for a chanter as everyone thinks. It reduces the recovery time after an invocation was used a lot. This can be very important, because you will stop singing chants for quite some time after an invocation. Pick up your singing quickly can be crucial.

It's also good for using scrolls quickly or drinking postions. A potion of Alacrity or a healing potion is of no use if you can't sip it quickly enough while getting interrupted.

The problem with drinking potions is not getting interrupted and has nothing to do with Dex.

 

Of course it has something to do with DEX. When you are able to sip the potion more quickly the chance of getting interrupted is decreasing - this is especially important if you fight enemies with high interrupt values but slow attacks, like Ogres. RES also helps a lot of course. If you can just shrug off the hit without being interrupted you can sip your potion more quickly - but with more DEX there's a chance that the enimation is finished before you even get hit. So - if drinking potions while standing in the centre of battle is your thing and you want to be the best at it ( ) you need both high RES and DEX. I have exprience with this because I recently tried to kill Ogre mobs just with Battle Forged and potions of Flame Shield (pimped by Turning Wheel and Scion of Flame). It works by the way.

 

I didn't say dex doesn't help vs interrupts.

Interrupts are a joke in this game (from enenmy side, different story from player side) and don't really stop you from drinking potions.

(Yes you might get delayed for half a frame, who cares )

And as I also stated this has nothing to do with Alacrity potions to begin with, you drink these at combat start, depending on the fight before you even are close to the enemies. (After aggroing via range)

And believe me drinking potions is only a pain because of that annoying bug, so if anyone knows how I can get rid of the inventory icon and have my potions on my ability bar any help would be appreciated.

[Jojobobo]

For sure, you'll get diminushing return for stacking Dex itself

 

My point was that Dex is as interesting when you have no recovery as when you have some. It will be exactly the same DPS multiplier in both cases.

 

And yes, when I wrote it I knew I was neglecting a bit inter action delays.

It's the same DPS multiplier sure, but for having both high Dex and zero recovery the returns are diminishing in a practical - not mathematical - sense.

 

Going off MaxQuest's Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum thread and assuming all his standardised values for the attack and recovery phases to be correct (which I'm sure they would be), then let's take the mace weapon. It has an attack phase value of 1 - so let's say that lasts 80 frames - and a recovery phase of 1.5 (which would correspond to 120 frames relative to the attack phase).

 

Let's say the equation takes the form, total frames = [attack phrase frames + (recovery phase frames x recovery coefficient)] / dexterity bonus

I think most of these values are self explanatory, zero recovery having a recovery coefficient of 0 and normal recovery having the same coefficient as 1.

 

Dex 10, normal recovery = [80 + (120 x 1)] / 1 = 200

Dex 20, normal recovery = [80 + (120 x 1)] / 1.3 = 153.8

Dex 10, zero recovery = [80 + (120 x 0)] / 1 = 80

Dex 20, zero recovery = [80 + (120 x 0)] / 1.3 = 61.5

 

Comparing Dex 10 standard recovery to Dex 10 zero recovery, you're shedding a whole 120 frames.

Comparing Dex 20 standard recovery to Dex 10 standard recovery, you're shedding 46.2 frames.

Comparing Dex 20 zero recovery to Dex 10 zero recovery, you're now shedding just 18.5 frames.

 

The big deal here is always the speed gained from zero recovery which is massive in comparison, and not the speed from having a decent Dex. This is without factoring in the small constant of delay in the aforementioned thread which affects high Dex slightly worse as MaxQuest and yourself have mentioned.

 

While you're not getting diminishing returns mathematically (as in, we're not talking exponential decay here), it seems that for a difference of just 18.5 frames going for both zero recovery and high Dex you really may as well be putting those points somewhere else - I'm sure Mig would provide more DPS in this instance.

 

The case may be a little different with reloading weapons (they have the whole extra - and lengthy - reloading turn added), and of course it's worthwhile for spells and whatnot - but for melee DPS the combo of both high Dex and zero recovery to me seems extremely pointless.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Kaylon]

Ok, here's MIG vs PER...

 

We'll see what happens over 100swings...

 

First let's call relative accuracy (RA) the difference between your accuracy and enemy's defense.

1) if RA<0 then at least 15 attacks are misses and +1per adds a hit instead of a miss every 100 attacks

2) if 0<RA<15 then 0-15 attacks are misses and +1per adds a crit instead of a miss every 100 attacks

3) if 15<RA<50 then you never miss and +1per adds a crit instead of a graze every 100 attacks

 

Most melee fighters can do 200+%dmg/hit and 280+%dmg/crit, thus 1per adds at least 200-280% dmg every 100 attacks.

In the first case +1mig adds at most 3%x85=255%dmg while +1per adds 200%dmg every 100 attacks

In the second case +1mig adds 255-300%dmg while +1per adds 280%dmg every 100 attacks

In the third case +1mig adds 300%dmg while +1per adds 230%dmg every 100 attacks

 

For spells or when the damage modifiers are small the accuracy adds less dps. For classes like fighters, rogues and even ciphers the accuracy can add even more dps than mig.

[Elric Galad]

Yup. That's a better version of what I said about Acc addind around 2% Damages and being worse than Might.

 

About being "Fast enough" with no recovery and investing in Mig instead of Dex... I guess it's where it's interesting to speak about the classes. As I said above, Rogue DPS is never "too high" and he/she has already so much damages modifiers than investing in Mig seems a poor choice. So for Dex...

 

On the opposite, paladins have limited special attacks and damage modifiers, and they have healings and Immolation so Mig is far better.

 

Etc...

 

So my per class Dex :

Wiz : 10

Druid : 10

Priest : 13+

Chanter : 10 or Dump

Cipher : 15+

Ranger : 15+

Pal : 10

Fighter : 13+

Barbarian :13+, more for interrupt or proc build

Rogue : 19+

Monk : 10+ (because of limited wounds and suffering benefits more from Mig)

 

(I don't like to min max too much)

 

As you see, it is far from my favorite stats but it is good as it is.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Dashel84]

Thankyou for all the excellent responses - this tingles my inner grognard.

 

However planning for durgan steel seems foolish for me, that's midgame at best, and probably late game if u play the game as designed.

 

If you look at PotD only, and only the first two acts, DR is so bloody high on 90% of the difficult mobs you face, I can't imagine Dex ever beating out might or per with the exception of the rogue (and only if u have 100% uptime on sneak attacks), and the cipher/fighter (only once they hit level 6). For the same reason two-hand wielding just seems flat out superior to single/dual/shield.

 

I like the increased difficulty of PotD - but I feel the super high DR removes a lot of choice in mechanics by making them flat out inferior. Yes zero DR mobs exist, but they are always easy kills. Shades have 16(!!) DR, even at level 5 leaving temple till after cad nua, 1-hand weapons wont scratch that short of a crit.

 

 

 

*edited to add - If you consider that a graze and a hit might do next to zero damage due to high DR, then +1 PER will be much more damage then +1 MIG, as 3% of nothing is nothing, but 1% of a lot is still something.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Dashel84

[Boeroer]

Except sabres.

[Dashel84]

Except sabres.

 

Which is what i mean by the high DR lowers options :3

[Jojobobo]

However planning for durgan steel seems foolish for me, that's midgame at best, and probably late game if u play the game as designed.

Personally I find it easy enough to make do up until you get durgan steel, things like two weapon fighting and  speed enchanted weapons are always going to reduce recovery quite a lot so it's really not much of a problem.