Weapon balance and comparison

[KDubya]

With the new changes to weapons how do they compare?

 

Two handed

 

• 0.7 attack and 3.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 22 - 27, avg = 24.5
  • Great Swords - dual damage
  • Pikes - increased reach
• Tier two damage 20 - 25, avg = 22.5 (8.1% less than tier one)
  • Quarterstaffs - increased reach and +5 accuracy
• Tier three damage 15 - 22, avg = 18.5 (24.5% less damage than tier one)
  • Poleax - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Morningstar - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Estoc - +2 penetration and +2 penetration (+4 total)

- Observation is that the tier three damage class weapons should actually be in the tier two class as they all have two extra abilities.

 

​One handed slow 

 

• 0.7 attack, 3.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 15 - 20, avg = 17.5
  • Sword - dual damage 
  • Battle Axe - +20% critical damage
• Tier two damage 14 - 19, avg = 16.5 (5.7% less than tier one)
  • Sabre - +20% damage
• Tier three damage 14 - 18, avg =16 (8.6% less than tier one)
  • Spear - +5 accuracy
• Tier four damage 10 -14, avg = 12 (31.4% less than tier one)
  • mace -  +2 penetration
  • Warhammer - dual damage and +2 penetration

​- Observation is that Sabre, Spear, Sword and Mace should all do the same damage as they all have one ability. Warhammers should do one tier less due to having two abilities.

 

​One handed fast

 

• 0.5 attack and 2.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 11 - 15, avg = 13
  • Clubs - +5 accuracy
  • Daggers - +5 accuracy
  • Rapier - +5 accuracy
  • Hatchet - +3 deflection
• Tier two damage 10 - 13, avg = 11.5 (11.5% less than tier one)
  • flail - 10% graze > hit
• Tier three damage 9 - 13, avg = 11 (15.4% less than tier one)
  • stiletto +2 penetration

​Observation - flails should be in tier one damage class, and 10% graze>hit is like an extra 1.25% damage so its pitiful. Stilettos should also be in tier one damage as they only have one ability.

 

​Damage per Second

• ​​Two handed tier one does 6.62 dps
• One handed w/shield tier one does 4.73 dps ( 4.76 spear)
• Sabres w/shield do 5.35 dps
• One handed fast w/shield tier one does 5.2 dps (5.72 accurate)
• dualwielding slow tier one does 7.95 dps (8.0 spear)
• dualwielding Sabres do 9 dps
• dualwielding fast tier one does 8.67 dps (9.54 accurate)
• Single weapon slow tier one does 5.86 dps (5.79 spear)
• Single weapon fast tier one does 6.45 dps (6.97 accurate)
• Single weapon Sabre does 6.63 dps

*Single weapon style based on +12 accuracy with acc=deflection, 25% graze and 50% hit. So it effectively trades 12 misses for 12 crits at 125% damage for +24% average damage.

 

** accurate weapons effectively add 5 misses>crits at 125% damage so effectively +10% damage

 

DPS in ranked order

1. Dualwielding accurate fast weapons 9.54 dps
2. Dualwielding Sabres 9 dps
3. Dualwielding fast weapons 8.67 dps
4. Dualwielding spears 8.0 dps
5. Dualwielding slow 7.95 dps
6. Single wielding fast accurate 6.97 dps
7. Single wielding Sabre 6.63 dps
8. Two handed weapons 6.62 dps
9. Single wielding fast 6.45 dps
10. Single wielding slow 5.86 dps
11. Single wielding spear 5.79 dps
12. Fast accurate with shield 5.72 dps
13. Sabre with shield 5.35 dps
14. Fast with shield 5.2 dps
15. Spear with shield 4.76 dps
16. Slow with shield 4.73 dps

 

Conclusion - 

• Two handed weapons still lag behind everything else unless you are getting close to zero recovery
• Fast accurate weapons are the damage kings for autoattacking
• Sabres are still the best choice if you also need primary or especially full attacks

 

 

[Dr <3]

Thks for the analysis. Actually all the new tiers of dmg are a bit confusing, well done!

[AndreaColombo]

Likewise. Thanks for the analysis; agree with your observations.

[dunehunter]

One thing that always confuse me, the +20% damage of Sabre is calculated in basic damage or with other additives like sneak attack?

[KDubya]

One thing that always confuse me, the +20% damage of Sabre is calculated in basic damage or with other additives like sneak attack?

 

It gets added up with sneak attack, weapon quality and everything else besides Strength.

[dunehunter]

I think the main problem is not two handed weapon too weak, but the inner bonus of dual wielding is too much. That -50% recovery time is balanced based on POE 1 penetration system. If single handed gives 12 Accuracy(which equals to 12 Perception), then dual wielding should be slower, maybe gives -30% recovery time.

 

Btw why single weapon outdamagd two handed too???

 

Btw2 I feel Sabre has the best modal among all dps average weapon. I’d rather attack slower than -20 deflection from sword modal, no thanks!

 

Devs seems to favor Sabre a lot!

Edited December 22, 2017 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

Let’s not give the devs ideas on how to nerf the only good thing left (i.e. dual wielding)

 

Modals need a rethink, IMO. They are way too extreme in general, to the point most them are actually never useful.

[KDubya]

I think the main problem is not two handed weapon too weak, but the inner bonus of dual wielding is too much. That -50% recovery time is balanced based on POE 1 penetration system. If single handed gives 12 Accuracy(which equals to 12 Perception), then dual wielding should be slower, maybe gives -30% recovery time.

 

Btw why single weapon outdamagd two handed too???

 

Btw2 I feel Sabre has the best modal among all dps average weapon. I’d rather attack slower than -20 deflection from sword modal, no thanks!

 

Devs seems to favor Sabre a lot!

 

The +12 accuracy from single wielding, +17 if its accurate as well trades misses for crits which adds up quickly.

 

Sabres were worse in PoE when they had a bigger base damage as that then got multiplied by the damage adders. Compared to Battle axes just makes axe users cry, +20% on a crit compared to +20% all the time.

 

Now imagine the disparity if/when two weapon style is available to everyone for another -20% recovery

[AndreaColombo]

Guys, after taking Healing away from MIG and nerfing both Tenacious and Devoted, 0 recovery is all I have left. Stop giving Josh ideas

[MaxQuest]

Need also to compare these weapons dps as if character was in plate)

In case there are no other modifiers, dual-wielding will likely lose a bigger part of it's dps compared to single-wielding.

 

But generally it repeats the PoE1 pattern when it comes to weapon auto-dps at zero recovery (assuming that we can reach it): 2h > 1h > dw

And that when zero-recovery is close but not reached yet: dw > 2h > 1h, because dw is the first to achieve it.

 

Single weapon fast tier one does 6.45 dps (6.97 accurate)

Don't these weapons have 0.5 attack duration followed by 2s recovery?

13/2.5 = 5.2, or I have missed something?

Edited December 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

We can reach 0 recovery with all weapons provided a sufficient investment in the Alchemy skill*. How much it is worth it depends on party synergy and each individual character.

 

DW just makes it a lot easier.

 

* though not in the beta; for 2H and heavy armor you need to be close to the level cap.

Edited December 22, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[KDubya]

Need also to compare these weapons dps as if character was in plate)

In case there are no other modifiers, dual-wielding will likely lose a bigger part of it's dps compared to single-wielding.

 

But generally it repeats the PoE1 pattern when it comes to weapon auto-dps at zero recovery (assuming that we can reach it): 2h > 1h > dw

And that when zero-recovery is close but not reached yet: dw > 2h > 1h, because dw is the first to achieve it.

 

Single weapon fast tier one does 6.45 dps (6.97 accurate)

Don't these weapons have 0.5 attack duration followed by 2s recovery?

13/2.5 = 5.2, or I have missed something?

 

 

The 5.2 dps would be with a shield. Single weapon fast tier one would be single wielding a rapier so I added in what effect the +12 and +17 accuracy would be on the dps based on 25% graze, 50% hit at acc=deflection and then converted misses to crits for the accuracy bonus.

 

Armor makes dual wielding even better as the armor malus is applied to the base speed and then you factor in your bonuses. Before when it was +100% for plate it went like this = 3 sec recovery x 100% = 6 second recovery and then factor in -50% dual wield and you are back at 3 second recovery. Now Plate is only -55% so 3 seconds goes to 4.65 seconds which goes to 2.3 with dual wield. 

 

Basically you dual wield in plate faster than you can single weapon naked or with a shield.

 

Also none of this takes into account any style bonuses like two weapon or two handed style.

[MaxQuest]

The 5.2 dps would be with a shield. Single weapon fast tier one would be single wielding a rapier so I added in what effect the +12 and +17 accuracy would be on the dps based on 25% graze, 50% hit at acc=deflection and then converted misses to crits for the accuracy bonus.

Understood now. The effect of +12/+17 heavily depends on the current [acc minus def] value. But yeah, +2% per 1 acc on average will do.

 

Armor makes dual wielding even better as the armor malus is applied to the base speed and then you factor in your bonuses. Before when it was +100% for plate it went like this = 3 sec recovery x 100% = 6 second recovery and then factor in -50% dual wield and you are back at 3 second recovery. Now Plate is only -55% so 3 seconds goes to 4.65 seconds which goes to 2.3 with dual wield.

Dualwielding fast weapons 8.67 dps | 13 / (0.5 + 2/2)

Two handed weapons 6.62 dps | 24.5 / (0.7 + 3) | or 30.96% less

 

Multiplicative:

Dualwielding fast weapons (in plate) 6.34 dps | 13 / (0.5 + 2 * 0.5 * 1.55)

Two handed weapons 4.58 dps (in plate) | 24.5 / (0.7 + 3 * 1.55) | or 38.42% less

 

Additive:

Dualwielding fast weapons (in plate) 5 dps | 13 / (0.5 + 2 * (1 - 0.5 + 0.55))

Two handed weapons 4.58 dps (in plate) | 24.5 / (0.7 + 3 * (1 + 0.55)) | or 9.17% less

 

Yeap you are right nevertheless of how dw bonus is applied.

But the gap is getting bigger or smaller depending on the way it is implemented.

 

Also none of this takes into account any style bonuses like two weapon or two handed style.

And two-weapon style gonna be a beast.

 

In PoE1, weapon recovery was on average x1.66 times the attack duration (which meant that you can get up to x2.66 dps increase by achieving zero recovery)

In Deadfire, weapon recovery is on average x4-4.2 times the attack duration. Thus if we indeed can achieve zero recovery we can get up to x5-5.2 dps increase.

Edited December 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

With the new changes to weapons how do they compare?

 

Two handed

 

• 0.7 attack and 3.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 22 - 27, avg = 24.5
  • Great Swords - dual damage
  • Pikes - increased reach
• Tier two damage 20 - 25, avg = 22.5 (8.1% less than tier one)
  • Quarterstaffs - increased reach and +5 accuracy
• Tier three damage 15 - 22, avg = 18.5 (24.5% less damage than tier one)
  • Poleax - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Morningstar - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Estoc - +2 penetration and +2 penetration (+4 total)

- Observation is that the tier three damage class weapons should actually be in the tier two class as they all have two extra abilities.

 

​

 

 

Without looking at the one-handers, just here, there's a reason the greatsword needs to be 25% damage superior to the other two handers -- it's got lower Penetration. Now that being down a point of Pen means a 25% damage loss, without the 25% damage penalty on all the other two handers, when you run the math really counter-intuitive results start popping out vs. various AR ranges. If you moved the Estoc down to the same damage as the quarterstaff, for example, the Estoc would be clearly superior vs almost all damage ranges because it would hit overpenetration bonus damage much faster.

 

I think the appropriate "fix" would be to move the quarterstaff into "group three," collapsing the calculation into two "groups," and just consider "+25% base damage" one of the Greatsword's two perks. Every weapon gets two perks, for the Greatsword it's two damage types and bonus damage, for the Estoc it's double extra penetration, etc. for the quarterstaff it's reach and accuracy, etc. 

 

 

edit: I'd probably collapse a lot of the one-handed weapon groups too, there are just too many tiers and it's too confusing. That problem is more complicated though

Edited December 22, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[BrettNLowe]

I still have issues with dual-wielding being the better option the more recovery penalty from armor you have. Dual-wielding should favor light armors, while sword and shield or two-handers should favor heavy armor.

 

I'd rework it so that Dual-wield gets a greater penalty from armor recovery than single-wield. I don't know if the math works out so that double the penalty would be enough, but that would be my starting point as it is pretty intuitive.

[KDubya]

 

 

With the new changes to weapons how do they compare?

 

Two handed

 

• 0.7 attack and 3.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 22 - 27, avg = 24.5
  • Great Swords - dual damage
  • Pikes - increased reach
• Tier two damage 20 - 25, avg = 22.5 (8.1% less than tier one)
  • Quarterstaffs - increased reach and +5 accuracy
• Tier three damage 15 - 22, avg = 18.5 (24.5% less damage than tier one)
  • Poleax - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Morningstar - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Estoc - +2 penetration and +2 penetration (+4 total)

- Observation is that the tier three damage class weapons should actually be in the tier two class as they all have two extra abilities.

 

​

 

 

Without looking at the one-handers, just here, there's a reason the greatsword needs to be 25% damage superior to the other two handers -- it's got lower Penetration. Now that being down a point of Pen means a 25% damage loss, without the 25% damage penalty on all the other two handers, when you run the math really counter-intuitive results start popping out vs. various AR ranges. If you moved the Estoc down to the same damage as the quarterstaff, for example, the Estoc would be clearly superior vs almost all damage ranges because it would hit overpenetration bonus damage much faster.

 

I think the appropriate "fix" would be to move the quarterstaff into "group three," collapsing the calculation into two "groups," and just consider "+25% base damage" one of the Greatsword's two perks. Every weapon gets two perks, for the Greatsword it's two damage types and bonus damage, for the Estoc it's double extra penetration, etc. for the quarterstaff it's reach and accuracy, etc. 

 

 

edit: I'd probably collapse a lot of the one-handed weapon groups too, there are just too many tiers and it's too confusing. That problem is more complicated though

 

 

Comparing the polax or Morningstar with the great sword. All have dual damage types, the great sword does 24.5% more damage compared to +2 penetration.

 

Being one penetration short gets you -25% multiplicative damage which sort of equates to one of the two extra penetration. This makes the band where the great sword is not the best choice very small.

 

Where Great Sword has adequate penetration it does a massive 24.5% extra base damage which gets multiplied by all the rest of the damage adders. When missing by one you'd do the same damage, when missing by 2, 3, or 4 penetration it'd be better for the poleax and anything greater than missing by 5 would be better for the Great Sword. This is not considering a situation where slash/pierce is better than slash/crush or pierce/crush. An Estoc would hold the bonus for values where the greatsword missed penetration by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.

 

As it stands now, barring a roleplaying choice, metagame knowledge of elite loot, or an overwhelming fascination with their weapon modals, choosing a Great Sword is a no brainer versus a polax or a Morningstar. An Estoc has enough extra penetration to expand its niche to a large enough range to make it a better choice than the other two.

 

If the 24.5% difference was more like 12-15% it'd be a better balance in my opinion. I also agree that the Quarterstaff is weirdly placed between the two and should be in the same group as the polax, Morningstar and estoc.

[KDubya]

Two interesting observations I've made:

 

1. Dual wielding a sabre and a fast accurate dagger, club or rapier does more dps than dual sabres, still has the bigger hitting sabre for primary attacks, and looks cool (not the club so much but ... ) An offhand dagger also gives you the option of using its modal for extra deflection when desired. 
2. Dual wielding a Sabre and a pistol or blunderbuss gets you the dual weapon attack speed boost to both. So if you have only one good sabre you can dual wield a pistol, shoot at the start and then rush into battle while getting the attack speed applied to only your good sabre.

[Answermancer]

 

Two interesting observations I've made:

 

1. Dual wielding a sabre and a fast accurate dagger, club or rapier does more dps than dual sabres, still has the bigger hitting sabre for primary attacks, and looks cool (not the club so much but ... ) An offhand dagger also gives you the option of using its modal for extra deflection when desired. 

 

With most of the rogue characters I've made I've dual-wielded Sabre and Stiletto. Cause it's cool, dammit, and also covers two damage types off the bat. Sounds like Stiletto is not great right now though, before Pen was all-or-nothing so I think the combo worked okay, particularly since the modals for both give extra Pen.

 

Modals need a rethink, IMO. They are way too extreme in general, to the point most them are actually never useful.

 

Well, I think the Pen modals are pretty great, or at least they were in the old system. Now that you're likely to only lose 25% damage, maybe less so.

 

I mostly agree about the rest, I've almost never found them even situationally useful (except maybe the defensive ones on squishy backliners if they get mobbed).

Edited December 23, 2017 by Answermancer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

With the new changes to weapons how do they compare?

 

Two handed

 

• 0.7 attack and 3.0 second recovery

 

• Tier one damage 22 - 27, avg = 24.5
  • Great Swords - dual damage
  • Pikes - increased reach
• Tier two damage 20 - 25, avg = 22.5 (8.1% less than tier one)
  • Quarterstaffs - increased reach and +5 accuracy
• Tier three damage 15 - 22, avg = 18.5 (24.5% less damage than tier one)
  • Poleax - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Morningstar - dual damage and +2 penetration
  • Estoc - +2 penetration and +2 penetration (+4 total)

- Observation is that the tier three damage class weapons should actually be in the tier two class as they all have two extra abilities.

 

​

 

 

Without looking at the one-handers, just here, there's a reason the greatsword needs to be 25% damage superior to the other two handers -- it's got lower Penetration. Now that being down a point of Pen means a 25% damage loss, without the 25% damage penalty on all the other two handers, when you run the math really counter-intuitive results start popping out vs. various AR ranges. If you moved the Estoc down to the same damage as the quarterstaff, for example, the Estoc would be clearly superior vs almost all damage ranges because it would hit overpenetration bonus damage much faster.

 

I think the appropriate "fix" would be to move the quarterstaff into "group three," collapsing the calculation into two "groups," and just consider "+25% base damage" one of the Greatsword's two perks. Every weapon gets two perks, for the Greatsword it's two damage types and bonus damage, for the Estoc it's double extra penetration, etc. for the quarterstaff it's reach and accuracy, etc. 

 

 

edit: I'd probably collapse a lot of the one-handed weapon groups too, there are just too many tiers and it's too confusing. That problem is more complicated though

 

 

Comparing the polax or Morningstar with the great sword. All have dual damage types, the great sword does 24.5% more damage compared to +2 penetration.

 

Being one penetration short gets you -25% multiplicative damage which sort of equates to one of the two extra penetration. This makes the band where the great sword is not the best choice very small.

 

Where Great Sword has adequate penetration it does a massive 24.5% extra base damage which gets multiplied by all the rest of the damage adders. When missing by one you'd do the same damage, when missing by 2, 3, or 4 penetration it'd be better for the poleax and anything greater than missing by 5 would be better for the Great Sword. This is not considering a situation where slash/pierce is better than slash/crush or pierce/crush. An Estoc would hold the bonus for values where the greatsword missed penetration by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.

 

As it stands now, barring a roleplaying choice, metagame knowledge of elite loot, or an overwhelming fascination with their weapon modals, choosing a Great Sword is a no brainer versus a polax or a Morningstar. An Estoc has enough extra penetration to expand its niche to a large enough range to make it a better choice than the other two.

 

If the 24.5% difference was more like 12-15% it'd be a better balance in my opinion. I also agree that the Quarterstaff is weirdly placed between the two and should be in the same group as the polax, Morningstar and estoc.

 

 

 

Ok. Hrm. I see your point. I'm not sure we can completely ignore the benefit of crush damage, but setting that aside, I think it would depend on the distribution of armor ratings. If 50% of the monsters in the game have an AR rating of 7, then a morningstar is excellent, etc. 

[KDubya]

So much will be dependent on how armor is tuned in relation to penetration.

 

Consider a melee who does not have any special penetration boosters.

• At start using mundane weapons he has a 5 penetration, 7 if using certain ones and 9 if using an estoc.
  • Light armor (5) is susceptible to damage from all weapons and is only good for stopping overpenetration
  • Medium armor (7) is 50% resistant to most weapons, and susceptible to everything else
  • Heavy armor (9) is -75% resistant to most, -50% to a few and susceptible to an estoc
  •  

Is this pattern supposed to hold for the game? As you acquire a Fine weapon for +1 penetration will the enemy acquire Fine armor to maintain the balance? 

 

• What if you lag behind in the penetration race?
  • Fine light armor (6) is now 25% resistant to your normal weapon
  • Fine medium armor ( is now -75% resistant to your normal weapon and -25% to a few
  • Fine Heavy armor (10) is now -75% resistant to all but estoc which is at -25%

If you fall behind the curve you will really feel it.

 

Now consider the above but you are now a Berserker with +2 penetration or a Devoted. All of a sudden armor and penetration are not that much of a concern. keeping a Skald on the team with their -5 armor debuff and everything becomes massively easier to damage.

 

If the game is balanced around not having additional penetration then it'll be much easier when you make use of them. If the game is balanced around the assumption that you are a team of Skald Berserkers .....

 

This armor and penetration issue has a huge bearing on spell casters who have very limited access to anything that raises penetration.

[SaruNi]

What about unarmed attacks?

[KDubya]

What about unarmed attacks?

 

Unarmed are bugged in that after a save/load you lose the benefits of being a Monk and the damage drops to nothing.

 

It also doesn't help that you can't mouse over your fists and see the attack speed and recovery like you can with everything else. I think fists are as fast as fast weapons but have no idea what their base damage is or how it compares to weapons.

[SaruNi]

 

What about unarmed attacks?

 

Unarmed are bugged in that after a save/load you lose the benefits of being a Monk and the damage drops to nothing.

 

It also doesn't help that you can't mouse over your fists and see the attack speed and recovery like you can with everything else. I think fists are as fast as fast weapons but have no idea what their base damage is or how it compares to weapons.

 

 

Going by the character sheet unarmed attacks have 6-10 base damage at 10 strength... and 6-9 at 14 strength so it's bugged. 

 

It would be interesting if unarmed attacks were slightly faster than weapons but monks are very strong already....

Edited December 24, 2017 by SaruNi

[hilfazer]

What about ranged weapons?

I need a confirmation that firearm fanboys won and forced Obsidian to make arquebus a better arbalest.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

What about ranged weapons?

I need a confirmation that firearm fanboys won and forced Obsidian to make arquebus a better arbalest.

 

 

Here are screenshots of ranged weapons in the current beta:

 

https://imgur.com/a/fC2wr

 

I don't know what "blunted criticals" means right now because as I understood it criticals only give +25% damage anyway. 

 

I've also got a pet thing that the Arquebus should do blunt damage rather than piercing but that's a side thing