Summoned weapons: Universal but not for the Devoted?

[AndreaColombo]

As it turns out, summoned weapons will take a -10 Accuracy penalty from the Devoted subclass unless the correspondent proficiency is taken even though their description clearly states that they are universal:

 

 

Similarly, the Devoted's bonuses don't apply to summoned weapons unless the correct proficiency is chosen.

 

Two issues with this approach:

 

• There are weapons like Kalakoth's Minor Blight that don't correspond to any proficiency, so it's impossible for the Devoted to be proficient with them.
• If you want to play a Devoted/Conjurer who focuses on summoned weapons, you must select a specific type of summoned weapons beforehand. Staff is the only summoned weapon type available from the get-go; if you want a pike, you must wait until past 10th level to get a summoned one (Citzal's Spirit Lance, unobtainable by a multiclass in the beta.) If you want a bow, assuming the black bow is still a thing in Deadfire, you must wait even longer. So basically you're strong-armed into choosing the staff and ignoring other summoned weapons if you're a Devoted.

 

Also it doesn't make a great deal of sense to state that these weapons are universal if they actually aren't I believe the assumption here is that if you've conjured up the weapon yourself with your magic, you're proficient in its use? Shouldn't this apply to the Devoted as well?

[SaruNi]

 

The entire point of the Devoted is being a Fighter with good penetration. What is the point of universal weapons that aren’t universal?

 

I’m fine with removing the misleading universal tag, assigning a proficiency to Kalakoth’s Minor Blight, and leave the rest as is. Granted, if you leave the Accuracy penalty with summoned weapons, a Devoted/Conjurer is de facto strong-armed into choosing staves...

disagree. the entire point o' devoted is you get big advantages with One weapon type.  should be disadvantages for using other weapons.  universal and soulbound shouldn't be a complete and obvious nullification o' devoted drawbacks.

 

am suspecting, once devoted is fixed, most folks choosing the devoted subclass is gonna opt for a weapon with multiple damage types.  sword does slash and pierce.  warhammer does crush and pierce.  choose a devoted weapon which only does one kinda damage type is gonna be quite painful when facing a foe with immunity or particular high armour vs. ______.  such a result is as it should be.  devoted benefits is big, so penalty should hurt. a soulbound or summoned weapon which do not provide devoted penetration bonus but nevertheless suppresses devoted accuracy penalty will still be o' great value to the devoted. strikes us as good balancing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

So are you suggesting that the Devoted benefits should never apply to summoned or soulbound weapons?

 

I'd rather have them work with summoned and soulbound weapons that match the Devoted's chosen weapon type. Most multiclass combinations effectively only get one summoned melee weapon anyway. For Priests, that weapon embodies their deity. It fits really well with Devoted from a RP standpoint and seems like a fun concept to play (and not OP because of the time it takes to summon). Likewise, a soulbound weapon forms a soul connection with the character... similar to the way the Devoted already has a connection with one weapon type. If they match, the Devoted should get the benefit. If they don't... the Devoted should respec or not use the weapon. A Devoted using a Soulbound weapon that isn't the weapon they're Devoted to doesn't make sense from a rp standpoint and removing the penalty just for soulbound weapons doesn't seem called for. Soulbound weapons weren't OP relative to other special weapons in PoE 1 so I doubt they'll be too OP in PoE 2. 

 

But do let them respec their single weapon proficiency. That way Devoted/Conjuror that uses summoned weapons won't have to choose between using the staff or waiting to get the Spirit Lance (not that a Conjuror needs to use summoned weapons at all... those are just two spells, they've got many more Conjuration spells that are useful to a melee character, not to mention all the Enchantment buffs that have 0 recovery time and therefore no penalty for using as a Conjuror). And people who create a Devoted and change their mind about weapon type (maybe make an uninformed decision and get stuck with a single damage type weapon) won't be forced to start over from the beginning. Sure there's potential for some meta-gaming abuse (if you're willing to slog to back to a place to respec frequently, and single encounters don't have enough enemies with strong resistances to different damage types) but I think it's outweighed by ergonomics....

[dunehunter]

In bg2, if you summon a magic weapon, you are temporarily granted weapon proficiency of that weapon type, and lose it when your summon duration is end. Why can't we imply this into Deadfire?

[AndreaColombo]

 we see no need to make blights a particular weapon type.

 

If we don't, there is no way for a Devoted to gain bonus penetration and crit damage with that particular summoned weapon. It doesn't seem particularly fair.

 

Right now, Devoted/Conjurer (or Devoted/Wizard, for that matter, though if you're going to focus on summoned weapons it pays to be a Conjurer) is forced to pick staves as that's the only summoned weapon available at level one. Alternatively you can wait until level 10 to get Citzal Spirit Lance, seeing as you can't possibly be proficient with Kalakoth's Minor Blights. Having to wait 10 levels to get your chosen summoned weapon is not my idea of fun, though; at best, you'd have to respec (but respeccing every time you want to use a different summoned weapon is tedious and still counts as a way to work around the subclass's limitation.)

 

As for nomenclature, saying a weapon has a universal proficiency suggests that every character is automatically proficient with it. If that's not the case, the information is misleading; people will wonder why their character is not proficient in the use of a universal weapon.

 

Your suggestion to remove the Accuracy penalty from universal weapons without applying the bonuses unless the relevant proficiency has been chosen is interesting, though again there should be a way to become proficient in the use of the Blights.

Edited December 5, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[SaruNi]

 

 we see no need to make blights a particular weapon type.

 

If we don't, then there is no way for a Devoted to gain bonus penetration and crit damage with that particular summoned weapon.

 

Right now, Devoted/Conjurer (or Devoted/Wizard, for that matter, though if you're going to focus on summoned weapons it pays to be Conjurer) is forced to pick staves as that's the only summoned weapon available for level one. When you get 3rd-level spells, you get Kalakoth's Minor Blights in which you can't be proficient even if you respec. Then you get Citzal Spirit Lance—upon reaching 10th level. Having to wait 10 levels to get your chosen summoned weapon is not my idea of fun; at best, you'd have to respec (but respeccing every time you want to use a different summoned weapon is tedious and still counts as a way to work around the subclass's limitation.)

 

As for nomenclature, saying a weapon as a universal proficiency suggests that every character is automatically proficient with it. If that's not the case, 'cause the Devoted is excluded, the information is misleading. People will wonder why their character is not proficient in the use of a universal weapon.

 

 

From the description, Devoted is not supposed to be able to become proficient with ranged weapons. So even if there were a proficiency they couldn't get it....

 

The subclass is called "Devoted" because they're devoted to one weapon type. It would make more sense to complain about the Black Jacket not being able to switch weapons after conjuring a summoned weapon without losing the summoned weapon (just tested, if you switch to another weapon and then try to switch back to the summoned weapon it's gone, at least for Kakaloth's Minor Blights). 

 

Seems like it should be pretty easy to mod in extra summoned weapons (or change the existing ones) if you really want to. Or they could have "Grimoire of Summoned Weapons" with a whole bunch of 1st level weapon summons....

[KDubya]

I like Gromnir's suggestion of Devoted lose the penalty but don't gain the bonus when using a summoned weapon that differs from their chosen weapon.

 

If your Devoted chooses Pikes at creation he gets the bonuses when using pikes, he summons the staff when desired during his first ten levels and then he gets to where he can summon his Citzal's Lance which gets massively buffed by his Devoted bonuses. Let him summon Kalkoth's Blights without penalty as well. Seems fair to me.

 

If you get effectively bonus proficiencies for summoned Weapons you could choose Estocs for massive penetration and then summon the staff when that much penetration is not needed and then later summon the lance for the AoE mayhem it brings. Seems like here there are no downsides to going with Devoted.

[Bluegrass]

What do you guys think of adding a new proficiency just for conjured weapons? That means the devoted/conjurer battlemage would suck unless using conjured weapons. I'd say this would call for balancing the duration of summoned weapons because if you could just conjure a weapon and be good for the entire combat would nullify the negatives of  the devoted subclass. I think this could lead to interesting tactical decisions and resource managing.

[dunehunter]

What do you guys think of adding a new proficiency just for conjured weapons? That means the devoted/conjurer battlemage would suck unless using conjured weapons. I'd say this would call for balancing the duration of summoned weapons because if you could just conjure a weapon and be good for the entire combat would nullify the negatives of  the devoted subclass. I think this could lead to interesting tactical decisions and resource managing.

 

There are melee and ranged conjured weapons, but devoted should only pick melee weapon as their weapon proficiency, it is countering their setting.

 

You either have to separate conjured weapon into range and melee two proficiency or make devoted to be able to choose range weapon for their proficiency. I don't think either will make any sense.

Edited December 27, 2017 by dunehunter

[MaxQuest]

What do you guys think of adding a new proficiency just for conjured weapons?

Probably unpopular opinion, but I'd prefer specializations being limited by weapon type, e.g:

- Great Sword specialization working with regular Great Swords, soulbound Great Swords and summoned Great Swords (e.g. Spiritual Weapon)

- Quarterstaff specialization working with regular Quarterstaves, soulbound Quarterstaves and summoned Quarterstaves (e.g. Councelhaut's Staff)

- and so on

 

And if there has to be something that would affect summoned (conjured) weapons exclusively - make it a talent (e.g. BattleMaster Conjurer or smth).

[AndreaColombo]

Isn’t that how it currently works, though? Quarterstaff proficiency works with the summoned staff.

[MaxQuest]

Sorry, I have missread the starting post. Was under impression that you get -10 ACC Penalty even if you take the corresponding proficiency.

 

And if it's currently works as I wrote above, unless I am missing something, I see no proficiency-related problem here...

As for those two mentioned issues:

- Kalakoth's Minor Blights besides being marked as universal, should be also marked as wand - as it was in PoE1

- Devouts should get a free talent at rank 5 that would allow them to change their preferred weapon once (or non-free talent that would allow them to select a second proffered weapon type). Otherwise devout/wizards would just respec for Citzal once it becomes available.

Edited December 27, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

My main issue is that the term “universal proficiency” suggests that everyone and their neighbor should be proficient with it. If the Devoted is an exception to this rule, it should be stated explicitly in its description; players shouldn’t find out that their builds aren’t viable after taking them to battle.

 

Either the weapons are truly universal, or exceptions should be communicated explicitly as early on as possible.

 

I agree if the blights were using the rod proficiency in the first game, that should be the case again in Deadfire.

 

Granted, Devoted/Wizard may remain an unviable build if the purpose is to focus on summoned weapons. I’m not a fan of that but I can live with it.

Edited December 27, 2017 by AndreaColombo