Getting ahead of things - the backup plan if the new Resolve and Strength fail

[IndiraLightfoot]

We now know the following, thanks to Josh and his fab Froghelm Club site:

"Going into this, I knew there were shortcomings.  It does mean that for priests and wizards that abstain from weapon-based attacks (i.e. most of them), they can more safely dump Might.  In that sense, it doesn’t mean they have more dump stats (since they were dumping Resolve) but it shifts what they dump unless they’re making a weapon-based priest or gish wizard.  It also has the side effect of stretching points a little thin for druids (who need Strength for their spiritshift forms) and arguably fighters and/or paladins.

Even knowing those shortcomings, I was surprised at how many people disliked the change, including the renaming of Might to Strength.  There seems to be a significant number of people across a variety of communities who really don’t like the shift for a variety of reasons.

We’re going to include this change in the next Backer Beta update, but I’m still working on/thinking through alternative ways to solve the problem.

Of the things that have been discussed, the one I think is most promising involves making Concentration better overall and allowing it to build up over the course of combat at a rate defined by the character’s Resolve.

Currently, Concentration simply acts as a shield against Interrupt.  If a character is casting a long cast spell and gets hit with an Interrupt, the cast is canceled and the corresponding resource is lost.  If the character has Concentration, the Interrupt’s only effect is to remove Concentration, meaning the ability can only be interrupted by two Interrupts in succession – one to remove Concentration and one to actually Interrupt.

For characters who don’t have long casts (most martial characters), Concentration is of minimal value.  While it will stop a knockdown or similar attack from temporarily taking a character out of a fight, it’s not as important.  If Concentration had additional inherent effects – increasing effective Power Level, increasing Penetration, etc. – it could be more valuable to characters (and enemies) overall.

If we can get Concentration to a place of widespread value (with an increased emphasis on casters), tying it to Resolve again may be a better solution, but there’s still a lot of thinking and discussion that needs to go into that.

Until then, we appreciate all of the feedback and look forward to seeing how your builds and playstyles change in the next Backer Beta update.  Thanks."

 

So, let's assume that the change isn't very popular, and that it's not really working for a number of cool builds and even classes (like cipher).

 

Here's my take on things then:

-Change the name back from Strength to Might, and return all damage Power to that attribute.

-Keep healing on Resolve (I find it fitting lore-wise), then make Concentration more bad-ass.

It no longer just shields against interrupts, it increases Penetration (This Geronimo-quality would fit Resolve and make for more versatile martial builds, actually. And did I mention that it helps against those hated "No Pen"-blooms for casters as well?).

Edited November 29, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Gromnir]

as we noted when the change were initial announced, am preferring to see how the change(s) actual impact gameplay.  all the face rending and wailing is entertaining (am not accusing you of such) but not particular constructive.

 

even so, am admitting it is worth considering alternatives even at this point... at least as some kinda thought experiment. good luck with the efforts to build a better mousetrap.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[IndiraLightfoot]

Come to think of it, Might is just a label to me, but I do realize that some players regard it as somewhat of an ID marker for Pillars of Eternity, a part of what made the game a bit unique among CRPGs, including the fact that all kinds of damage was pooled there. Perhaps it is too bold of a change to scratch that?

Edited November 29, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Azmodiuz]

We now know the following, thanks to Josh and his fab Froghelm Club site:

"Going into this, I knew there were shortcomings.  It does mean that for priests and wizards that abstain from weapon-based attacks (i.e. most of them), they can more safely dump Might.  In that sense, it doesn’t mean they have more dump stats (since they were dumping Resolve) but it shifts what they dump unless they’re making a weapon-based priest or gish wizard.  It also has the side effect of stretching points a little thin for druids (who need Strength for their spiritshift forms) and arguably fighters and/or paladins.

Even knowing those shortcomings, I was surprised at how many people disliked the change, including the renaming of Might to Strength.  There seems to be a significant number of people across a variety of communities who really don’t like the shift for a variety of reasons.

We’re going to include this change in the next Backer Beta update, but I’m still working on/thinking through alternative ways to solve the problem.

Of the things that have been discussed, the one I think is most promising involves making Concentration better overall and allowing it to build up over the course of combat at a rate defined by the character’s Resolve.

Currently, Concentration simply acts as a shield against Interrupt.  If a character is casting a long cast spell and gets hit with an Interrupt, the cast is canceled and the corresponding resource is lost.  If the character has Concentration, the Interrupt’s only effect is to remove Concentration, meaning the ability can only be interrupted by two Interrupts in succession – one to remove Concentration and one to actually Interrupt.

For characters who don’t have long casts (most martial characters), Concentration is of minimal value.  While it will stop a knockdown or similar attack from temporarily taking a character out of a fight, it’s not as important.  If Concentration had additional inherent effects – increasing effective Power Level, increasing Penetration, etc. – it could be more valuable to characters (and enemies) overall.

If we can get Concentration to a place of widespread value (with an increased emphasis on casters), tying it to Resolve again may be a better solution, but there’s still a lot of thinking and discussion that needs to go into that.

Until then, we appreciate all of the feedback and look forward to seeing how your builds and playstyles change in the next Backer Beta update.  Thanks."

 

So, let's assume that the change isn't very popular, and that it's not really working for a number of cool builds and even classes (like cipher).

 

Here's my take on things then:

-Change the name back from Strength to Might, and return all damage Power to that attribute.

-Keep healing on Resolve (I find it fitting lore-wise), then make Concentration more bad-ass.

It no longer just shields against interrupts, it increases Penetration (This Geronimo-quality would fit Resolve and make for more versatile martial builds, actually).

I am soo onboard with this, LOVE IT ! 

just doit !

[Baltic]

Whilst I like the name might, my worry is that returning players will think they know what might does and thus not read its description and then try and recreate their pillars 1 caster who had high might.

Edit: didn't read your post properly, if might isn't being changed much its name could stay as it was.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Baltic

[IndiraLightfoot]

Whilst I like the name might, my worry is that returning players will think they know what might does and thus not read its description and then try and recreate their pillars 1 caster who had high might.

Yeah, like I said, Might and all kind of damage on that attribute is somehow part of the PoE DNA.

 

EDIT: if we look upon PoE as a brand, you may say that Josh in this regard takes a risk with their IP and the brand identity, compare it a bit with those consumer outcries (for instance Coca Cola 1985, they had to revert stuff they'd changed.) Never underestimate people's need for comfort zones and appreciation of more of the same, if there is something they liked enough.

Edited November 29, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[AndreaColombo]

I would bring Healing back to Might, but I'll also admit to a bias

 

Frankly, I never had a problem with Might; it shouldn't have to suffer just because Resolve was bad.

 

Making Concentration more worthwhile and tying it to Resolve could work.

Edited November 29, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Lamppost in Winter]

I do like healing on Resolve. I feel it's a fairly simple way to make that stat more enticing. Maybe also have some effect on healing received?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Brainstorming:

 

The problem would seem to be "how do we graft Concentration/interrupt onto the Resolve tree"

 

Options:

 

1) Make some sort of system where you start out from -10 to +10 concentration and you need a value greater than 0 to cast. Changes over time, interrupts bring it down. (This would make it hard for some builds to open a fight with powers/abilities/spells; could have weird results in play.

 

2) You could tie it to critical hits. Critical hits that Penetrate break concentration; Resolve gives increasing/decreasing chance to resist critical hits.

 

3) tie it to Penetration and damage past armor in the same way;.

 

Hrrrrm.  None of this really solves the CIpher problem but at least it keeps Might (which is just a more elegant stat than Strength).

[CENIC]

I really like the idea of Concentration being governed by Resolve. Josh should bring back Interrupt for Perception and all will be in it's proper place! 

 

That being said... I am starting to warm up to the idea of magical damage under Resolve. I even revised my attribute spread to something that will be easier to mod in (assuming someone finds a way)

 

Strength (STR) - +3% Physical Weapon Damage, +2 Fortitude
Constitution (CON) - +5% Health, +1 Deflection, +2 Fortitude
Dexterity (DEX) - +3% Action Speed, +2 Reflex
Perception (PER) - +1 Accuracy, +2 Reflex
Intellect (INT) - +6% Area of Effect, +5% Duration, +2 Will
Resolve (RES) - +3% Spell Damage/Magical Weapon Damage/Healing, +2 Will 

[KDubya]

My personal opinion is that you should have Resolve affect affliction durations sort of like the Intellect stat handles durations but on enemy spells instead of on your own.

 

I'm not a programmer but it seems easy to implement. When you cast a spell have its duration be base x (your Intellect modifier - targets Resolve modifier)

 

Simple, elegant and does not fundamentally change how classes are built. The biggest threat to killing your characters is being stunned/paralyzed or something like that which results in you then being hit really hard and really easily. Something that reduces the time that you are exposed to these types of afflictions would be useful for any sort of tank type. A glass cannon build who dumped this stat would be hammered by any sort of affliction.

 

What's not to like?

 

 

P.S. You could add interrupts and Concentration into this as well but that might make it too important.

[AndreaColombo]

^ that would be my preferred solution as well.

[Boeroer]

I'm not a programmer but it seems easy to implement. When you cast a spell have its duration be base x (your Intellect modifier - targets Resolve modifier)

I also advocated for this on twitter (because Josh said all solutions so far in the forums would wreak havoc to other game mechanics - I don't think so) but got no response. I think it's a change that gives RES meaning but at the same time doesn't need rebalancing of the game, because if you look at the average effect nothing changes.

 

If you make this reduction/increase of duration percentage based then I believe you could just use the same code (with minor changes) that handles the altering of duration on a graze or crit. After every CC roll there has to be checked if the attack was a graze (=less duration) or a crit (=longer duration). With RES it would be the same thing. Maybe a matter of 10 minutes - only my guess as an experienced software developer (who knows the Unity3D game engine a bit and the Godot game engine quite well) though.

 

So, from a programmer's point of view I see no difficulties. But maybe there are some hidden pitfalls from a designer's perspective...?

 

For example it could mean that abilites/items that reduce afflictions' duration by a flat number of seconds (see Clarity of Agony or items similar to Fenwalkers or Blaidh Golan) complety nullify the affliction IF they are applied after the RES-reduction. And maybe it's harder to code if you want to apply the flat reduction first and then the percentage based...?

 

No idea. But generally speaking I don't think it would be too hard if you don't overpower the effect too much.

 

Also I suggested here that Concentration is altered a bit so it fits the ingame description. At the moment it's either "you have Concentration or not" while in some of the ingame texts it is said that there could be some more layers of concentration and at every interrupt one is taken away.

My approach was to give everybody who gains concentration via spell or ability a base of 10 concentration with 10 RES and everybody with 10 PER an interrupt strenght of 10 (if he CAN interrupt at all). So 1 RES = 1 point of concentration and 1 point of PER = 1 point of interrupt strength.

Now a char with 20 RES (who gains concentration through ability in the first place) would have to get interrupted thrice by a 10-PER interruptor (who needs to have the ability to interrupt in the first place) in order to make his spell fumble. As long as there is concentration left it would cancel interrupts.

 

Basically like the current system, but with a bit more granularity. A high-PER character could take away concentration faster (ideally one hit like it's now) than a low PER-interruptor.

 

Also no answer.

 

Since I don't think that concentration is superpowerful (if you get targeted by an interruptor you will lose your spell anyway because they hit a lot faster than you can finish a lenghty spell) I believe both options could be done without balancing issues.

 

At the same time I would take away deflection from RES. There are lots of other means to affect deflection. Why can you deflect blows any better if you are determined? Makes no sense for me. Be if it stays in it's also ok for me.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

Does the concentration stacks now? Like if you cast Spirit shield and Arcane Veil at same time, are you granted two layer of Concentration so enemies need two interrupt to abort your spell?

Edited November 30, 2017 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

I don't know. I believe it's just a yes or no. If you cast it twice you don't have two concentration layers. Maybe wrong though.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I just got this weird idea:

How about testing both new attribute changes at the same time?

 

Have an NPC dummy at the dock, where you can make a choice at the start of the game:

-Either you pick the new Strength and magic damage+healing on Resolve (the next patch)

-Or you pick Might more or less the same, plus Resolve with a new important Concentration boost.

 

This way, it's much easier to compare the two, and it saves time. It shouldn't affect bug reports (extremely marginally so, perhaps - doubt it).

[CENIC]

I just got this weird idea:

How about testing both new attribute changes at the same time?

 

Have an NPC dummy at the dock, where you can make a choice at the start of the game:

-Either you pick the new Strength and magic damage+healing on Resolve (the next patch)

-Or you pick Might more or less the same, plus Resolve with a new important Concentration boost.

 

This way, it's much easier to compare the two, and it saves time. It shouldn't affect bug reports (extremely marginally so, perhaps - doubt it).

Probably much more difficult and time consuming to implement though. Unless you're a software programmer/game designer and know how those systems work.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Nah, it's extremely easy to implement. You just include two versions of the relevant attribute scripts and then have the convo trigger one of them, depending on the input of the player, for this playthrough. You could even go back to the dock and switch it whenever you like. You can have one as default and the other as an alternative (meaning, you have to speak to the convo dummy to change the attribute system.)

Edited November 30, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot