SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

[Aramintai]

Why is it always the use of Might for magic that's the problem? No one seems to have any problems with archers, crossbow-users, gunners or rapier-wielders getting damage from Might, even though it makes equally little sense from a non-mechanical standpoint.

Well, to be fair, bows and crossbows do require quite a bit of strength to draw/reload them. Rapier is still a sword too, albeit a lighter one, but still need strength to swing. Not sure what to say about guns...they were just added to the pile? 

[Baltic]

Why is it always the use of Might for magic that's the problem? No one seems to have any problems with archers, crossbow-users, gunners or rapier-wielders getting damage from Might, even though it makes equally little sense from a non-mechanical standpoint.

You can kind of justify bows and guns with idea of being able to draw it back or minimising recoil. A strength requirement for certain ranged with weapons or having diminishing returns for every point below that weapon would make more sense but people might be willing to accept it as game mechanics tend to have to become unrealistic at some point. I can't speak for guns and crossbows but being strong is helpful in archery and being weak would impact your ability as an archer. On the other hand the idea of wizards being underestimated by their appearance or brains beating brawn is quite popular hence why people are more bothered by might being useful for casters.

Edit: sort of ninja'd

Edited November 28, 2017 by Baltic

[Gromnir]

Why is it always the use of Might for magic that's the problem? No one seems to have any problems with archers, crossbow-users, gunners or rapier-wielders getting damage from Might, even though it makes equally little sense from a non-mechanical standpoint.

people did complain during poe development 'bout the ubiquitous quality o' might damage enhancements. complained often.

 

*shrug*

 

were some developer presentations which explained the thought process behind the ability scores.  were never 'posed to be a reality simulator.  even so, is curious why so many salient and subtle game abstractions is overlooked while others is so curiously important.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sedrefilos]

Why is it always the use of Might for magic that's the problem? No one seems to have any problems with archers, crossbow-users, gunners or rapier-wielders getting damage from Might, even though it makes equally little sense from a non-mechanical standpoint.

Beside guns, everything else is affected by might (or strength) tbh.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Have a toddler fire a Magnum, and see what happens...

(No, just no! This was simply a joke.)

Strength certainly matters in that case too.

Edited November 28, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sedrefilos]

Have a toddler fire a Magnum, and see what happens...

(No, just no! This was simply a joke.)

Strength certainly matters in that case too.

You're right. Don't know how much of kickback power those old guns had though.

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

Why is it always the use of Might for magic that's the problem? No one seems to have any problems with archers, crossbow-users, gunners or rapier-wielders getting damage from Might, even though it makes equally little sense from a non-mechanical standpoint.

people did complain during poe development 'bout the ubiquitous quality o' might damage enhancements. complained often.

 

*shrug*

 

were some developer presentations which explained the thought process behind the ability scores.  were never 'posed to be a reality simulator.  even so, is curious why so many salient and subtle game abstractions is overlooked while others is so curiously important.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I know it's not supposed to be a simulator and I'm fine with that. Or, well... was. I was just pointing out the double standard, and a barrage of excuses was brought out to illustrate it. People might have complained about it back during the original development, but ever since I joined this forum after Deadfire's announcement, it's always been about Might to magic damage.

Edited November 28, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Gromnir]

 

 

Why is it always the use of Might for magic that's the problem? No one seems to have any problems with archers, crossbow-users, gunners or rapier-wielders getting damage from Might, even though it makes equally little sense from a non-mechanical standpoint.

people did complain during poe development 'bout the ubiquitous quality o' might damage enhancements. complained often.

 

*shrug*

 

were some developer presentations which explained the thought process behind the ability scores.  were never 'posed to be a reality simulator.  even so, is curious why so many salient and subtle game abstractions is overlooked while others is so curiously important.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I know it's not supposed to be a simulator and I'm fine with that. Or, well... was. I was just pointing out the double standard, and a barrage of excuses was brought out to illustrate it. People might have complained about it back during the original development, but ever since I joined this forum after Deadfire's announcement, it's always been about Might to magic damage.

 

wasn't a criticism o' you.  our observations were directed at those who do actual have their shorts in a twist... and have been crying foul since early in poe development.

 

again, with the multitude o' abstractions in poe and every other crpg we can think o', why folks latch on to specific things such as might being useful to wizards is curious.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[Baltic]

Not trying to excuse, just explaing why I think others think that way.

[Skaddix]

Does it really kill the muscle wizard with the new spell specialization you could focus on buffs?  Although I suppose it matters do summoned weapons run on Strength or Resolve but a more Illusion or Transmutation Wizard would be fine. Still they fixed this are looking at pen now if only they can slash cast times we might get good. Preventing a dump stat was always a pipe dream

Edited November 28, 2017 by Skaddix

[Aramintai]

 

Have a toddler fire a Magnum, and see what happens...

(No, just no! This was simply a joke.)

Strength certainly matters in that case too.

You're right. Don't know how much of kickback power those old guns had though.

 

Could dislocate your shoulder or leave a bruise.

[IndiraLightfoot]

A 10-bore flintlock rifle is a beast. You need to be reasonably strong to take that kickback, and loading it, you need to be reasonably strong too.

 

A vid of an 18th century rifle, loading it, and finally shooting it. Watch from 4.30 mark or so, and watch the recoil. It shoves the big man back alright.

https://www.full30.com/video/9bb3a82231bcda8cee6cf5180d1e78f4

Edited November 28, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Wormerine]

Hey, it might turn out great, in fact I hope it does, but I liked Pillars a lot so the changes don't sound good to me.

 

I'm not going to make any proclamations like "I'll never play Deadfire" or similar, but my enthusiasm for it is diminishing. I might just leave the beta and come back in a few months to see how things are looking.

 

It made sense from a mechanics point of view, and I quite liked the lore explanation once I got used to it. The only thing that wasn't great was that almost all Might dialogue checks implied physical intimidation, but this won't be an issue in Deadfire since we have conversation based skills including Intimidation and it sounds like attribute based dialogue options are mostly being removed.

 

 

I didn’t mean to suggest your reservation is unasked for or wrong. This change has wide implication. Mechanically I liked old system - it was quite elegant as every stat worked in similar way for every class - and therefore was usually useful for every class depending what built you went for. My biggest problem was with might checks in dialogues and scripted interactions.

 

 

Why is it always the use of Might for magic that's the problem? No one seems to have any problems with archers, crossbow-users, gunners or rapier-wielders getting damage from Might, even though it makes equally little sense from a non-mechanical standpoint.

As least in my case it comes from my stereotypical mage character, who was supposed to be tough spellwise but not tough physically and he was usually the best party member to do might checks and move stuff around with his strength. I found inability to differentiate strength from magical prowess frustrating.

 

I do find it weird that guns rely on strength. I think if guns had a set damage and strength wouldn’t be a factor it might have been an interesting “amateurish” weapon for non combat oriented characters. In my personal experience I found firearms to be most useful as opening act and used other weapons for main fight.

[Wormerine]

 

 

Have a toddler fire a Magnum, and see what happens...

(No, just no! This was simply a joke.)

Strength certainly matters in that case too.

 

You're right. Don't know how much of kickback power those old guns had though.

Could dislocate your shoulder or leave a bruise.

Using gun with low strength should give you a chance to gain injury with every shot.

[draego]

 

Hey, it might turn out great, in fact I hope it does, but I liked Pillars a lot so the changes don't sound good to me.

 

I'm not going to make any proclamations like "I'll never play Deadfire" or similar, but my enthusiasm for it is diminishing. I might just leave the beta and come back in a few months to see how things are looking.

 

It made sense from a mechanics point of view, and I quite liked the lore explanation once I got used to it. The only thing that wasn't great was that almost all Might dialogue checks implied physical intimidation, but this won't be an issue in Deadfire since we have conversation based skills including Intimidation and it sounds like attribute based dialogue options are mostly being removed.

 

 

I didn’t mean to suggest your reservation is unasked for or wrong. This change has wide implication. Mechanically I liked old system - it was quite elegant as every stat worked in similar way for every class - and therefore was usually useful for every class depending what built you went for. My biggest problem was with might checks in dialogues and scripted interactions.

 

 

This was already being fixed in POE as the dialogue will rely less on stats and more on skills. Well maybe not fixed by the impact lessened. I posted it here

Edited November 28, 2017 by draego

[Skaddix]

Eh I suppose its a natural factor of not having DEX as the ranged damage stat

[Aramintai]

 

Using gun with low strength should give you a chance to gain injury with every shot.

 

 

Lol, I like this

[cheesevillain]

Does it really kill the muscle wizard with the new spell specialization you could focus on buffs?  Although I suppose it matters do summoned weapons run on Strength or Resolve but a more Illusion or Transmutation Wizard would be fine. Still they fixed this are looking at pen now if only they can slash cast times we might get good. Preventing a dump stat was always a pipe dream

 

Summoned weapons are weapons, and do weapon damage. Muscle wizards will still exist and be effective, but more specialized. Min-maxed wizards won't now hit as hard with both Concelhaut's Staff and Fireball.

 

Strength will now be a more common dump stat for wizards, but perhaps not quite as common a dump stat as Resolve was before.

 

"Sigh" It was really fun for when Helwalker/Wizard ran out of spells, run up to the enemies and explode their stupid faces with Torment's Reach. End of that dream build.

 

The good news might be that this might be a prelude to cranking up the power on caster's spells. Since casters have so few casts-per-combat in PoE2, they spend more of combat using weapon damage. If the weapon damage for spell-damage optimized casters is nerfed, then they can more easily tune up the damage that spells do.

Edited November 29, 2017 by cheesevillain

[Wormerine]

The good news might be that this might be a prelude to cranking up the power on caster's spells. Since casters have so few casts-per-combat in PoE2, they spend more of combat using weapon damage. If the weapon damage for spell-damage optimized casters is nerfed, then they can more easily tune up the damage that spells do.

My thoughts exactly.

[KDubya]

I for one welcome our new tank-mage overlords  

 

Here you go:

 

Orlan from Aedyr

 

Might 2

Con 10

Dex  10

Per 18

Int  18

Res 20

 

Use a wand and shield with the wand modal causing -10 accuracy to enemy for -50% damage.

 

You cast spells like a champ and have great deflection due to max Resolve and a shield. If you get weapon and shield style  that makes it even better.

 

For more balanced stats  

 

Might 2 -add the dropped ones to con at 1:1

Con 18

Dex 10

Per 13

Int  15

Res 20

 

This guy in addition to having great deflection will have more health than most melee guys 

[Aramintai]

I for one welcome our new tank-mage overlords

 

[Gromnir]

I for one welcome our new tank-mage overlords

 

Here you go:

 

Orlan from Aedyr

 

Might 2

Con 10

Dex  10

Per 18

Int  18

Res 20

 

Use a wand and shield with the wand modal causing -10 accuracy to enemy for -50% damage.

 

You cast spells like a champ and have great deflection due to max Resolve and a shield. If you get weapon and shield style  that makes it even better.

 

For more balanced stats  

 

Might 2 -add the dropped ones to con at 1:1

Con 18

Dex 10

Per 13

Int  15

Res 20

 

This guy in addition to having great deflection will have more health than most melee guys 

 

on the not-so-funny side, the current peculiarities o' deadfire mechanics has Gromnir outfitting his backline casters with tower shields and wands. as long as kdubya can get his orlan wizard tank to travel back from the future and sit in a doorway to prevent flanking, our squishy wizards will sit back with wands and tower shields taking 50% less damage due to the shield modal while debilitating foes with their wands... 'cause chances are their offensive spells lack enough penetration to do anything useful... at least until our other orlan party member, a skald, uses the ar reducing invocation which is current a no brainer talent. not being able to move is hardly a problem for backline casters when enemies cannot get to them.  

 

is a number o' oddities at play.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps current the basement for stat reduction is 5... in case nobody else already mentioned.

[KDubya]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps current the basement for stat reduction is 5... in case nobody else already mentioned.

 

 

 

What do you mean that the basement is five for stat reduction? I just rolled up an Orlan Wizard in the Beta with a 2 Might.

[PugPug]

Casters are not going to be tanking and doing heavy damage. They still have lower base deflection and HP, don’t they? Probably missing some tanky talents only fighters and paladins get?

Edited November 29, 2017 by PugPug

[KDubya]

Base deflection is the same for all except barbarians get -5 and Fighters get +5.

 

Health per level up is higher for Barbarians but i don't know the actual numbers. But a 2 Might/18 Con Orlan nuker will have a +40% boost to Con which will be more than a base con melee guy.