Frowning upon proficiency page as a monk

[Climhazzard]

 

 

It seems like they simply forgot about it.

I asked if there was an unarmed modal in their live stream beta announcement and the answer I got was that monks bare fists are already OP so they don't have any plans to add one. I can't blame them because in my last playthrough as a monk I was one shotting mobs on PotD by the end of the game. That said, if you want to punch dragons to death (as is my preference ) you have to play as a monk.

 

Ok I'm confused, perhaps the character sheet is just fcked up.

 

 

Monk fists list 8-13 damage.

Sabers list 21-33 damage.

 

 

Long story short, I ended up playing my monk with sabers -.-

 

 

 

Gonna have to double check that I guess...

 

 

 

Edit: just to be on the same page here, when you talk about your last playthrough on POTD, you talkin' about DF or POE1 ?

 

 

 

It's a bug, check your damage when you first make your monk then compare it to after the first time you load the game.  It gets cut in half.

 

Also if this is anything like PoE then fists will have fast attack speed while the sabers will have average attack speed.  Right now they both have fast attack speed.

 

Fists will be fast (assumption) and come in somewhere between 20-25 while your saber is average and coming in at 30 or so.  Fists will be plenty competitive as long as they have enough penetration, which they probably won't have for every encounter so you'll end up using the sabers sometimes anyways.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Climhazzard

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

It seems like they simply forgot about it.

I asked if there was an unarmed modal in their live stream beta announcement and the answer I got was that monks bare fists are already OP so they don't have any plans to add one. I can't blame them because in my last playthrough as a monk I was one shotting mobs on PotD by the end of the game. That said, if you want to punch dragons to death (as is my preference ) you have to play as a monk.

 

Ok I'm confused, perhaps the character sheet is just fcked up.

 

 

Monk fists list 8-13 damage.

Sabers list 21-33 damage.

 

 

Long story short, I ended up playing my monk with sabers -.-

 

 

 

Gonna have to double check that I guess...

 

 

 

Edit: just to be on the same page here, when you talk about your last playthrough on POTD, you talkin' about DF or POE1 ?

 

 

 

It's a bug, check your damage when you first make your monk then compare it to after the first time you load the game.  It gets cut in half.

 

Also if this is anything like PoE then fists will have fast attack speed while the sabers will have average attack speed.  Right now they both have fast attack speed.

 

Fists will be fast (assumption) and come in somewhere between 20-25 while your saber is average and coming in at 30 or so.  Fists will be plenty competitive as long as they have enough penetration, which they probably won't have for every encounter so you'll end up using the sabers sometimes anyways.

 

 

Yes this makes a lot sense to me, currently single hand weapon bug makes the feeling that fist is not that good, lets see how it goes after the new patch coming.

[dam]

Keep in mind that weapons shall be enchant able, while fists will not.

 

 

A weapon user can get proficiency + a modal, and enchant it.

A monk can not get proficient (hello ability to graze if you dualclass to fighter ?), does not get a modal, cannot enchant their fists.

 

It's actually quite the trade-off really, even more so when the game features an entire class based around the concept of using their fists.

 

 

 

With fists, you're kissing that +25% Lash damage goodbye, you're not getting bonus accuracy for higher crit rate, you're not getting extra damage from Superb.

One may argue that you "do" as a passive for being a Monk, sure, you "do".

 

You also do skip on getting another passive though, like Constant Recovery, or auras, or whatever else.

You actually pay for the passive bonii to unarmed attacks by being a monk.

[Climhazzard]

Keep in mind that weapons shall be enchant able, while fists will not.

 

 

A weapon user can get proficiency + a modal, and enchant it.

A monk can not get proficient (hello ability to graze if you dualclass to fighter ?), does not get a modal, cannot enchant their fists.

 

It's actually quite the trade-off really, even more so when the game features an entire class based around the concept of using their fists.

 

 

 

With fists, you're kissing that +25% Lash damage goodbye, you're not getting bonus accuracy for higher crit rate, you're not getting extra damage from Superb.

One may argue that you "do" as a passive for being a Monk, sure, you "do".

 

You also do skip on getting another passive though, like Constant Recovery, or auras, or whatever else.

You actually pay for the passive bonii to unarmed attacks by being a monk.

 

 

Fists already have higher base damage than other fast weapons which makes up for lack of enchants.  The monk bonus scales with power level so they'll surely be competitive to superb weapons by endgame.  Whether they compete with legendary or soulbound weapons is yet to be seen, perhaps not...  or perhaps monks will get their own unique items to compensate.  It's to early to judge.  Also not every class even gets a free passive so you can't really say that they're giving up a passive to get fists as a weapon.

 

I agree with the OP that fists ought to have a proficiency for monks.  Especially for a devoted fist user.  But I don't necessarily believe that it will make or break fists as a weapon type.

 

Anyways, if they do get a modal then I hope it's something like pressure point strikes...  sacrifice damage or recovery for some kind of affliction on the enemy.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Climhazzard

[dam]

That would be sweet aye, and totally in line with roleplay

 

 

I also definitely agree it's too early to judge, a point I've made in a couple threads already, things are going to change very much before release, that is a given.

 

It is, however, not too early to debate

[KDubya]

The easy solution is to have Monks automatically gain 'fists' and later 'long pain fists' as being proficient but have no additional modal ability. This way a Monk/Barbarian can benefit from weapon focus and Monk/Fighters can benefit from the various benefits such as grazes, devoted and what not.

 

They really need to fix the melee recovery bug, or at least give us a spreadsheet showing what the numbers should be. I see multiple tiers of damage for what i assume are same speed weapons - Estocs do less than Morningstars which do less than all the rest. Bug or feature? With one handed weapons stilletos do the same as warhammers then (I think, going from memory) spears, then maces and finally sabres.

[AndreaColombo]

Why not the ability to select fists as a proficiency? This way a Devoted/Monk could benefit from the Devoted's perks while using their fist. If a spiritshift's natural weapons also counted as fists for the purpose of proficiency, a Devoted/Shifter would also benefit.

[Boeroer]

Is it set that we will be having enchantment? Because atm there's no such option. At least Josh said that things like lashes can't be enchanted anymore. That means that monk's fists don't have that special disadvantage like in PoE. Same with Durgan Steel I guess. So if they have the base damage of a sabre but are way faster then they are powerful. Still doesn't explain why you can't be proficient with them and get a nice modal as well as stuff like grazes and extra PEN. If it's too powerful then please nerf the damage a bit.

[JerekKruger]

Any ideas for what a Fists modal might do?

[KDubya]

Any ideas for what a Fists modal might do?

 

I could see a raw damage DoT called dirty boxing or cheap shot.

 

 

 

 

If they do get a fist proficiency a Devoted/Monk will have 5+3+4 = 12 penetration not counting whatever Transcendental suffering adds. Monks have Thunderous Blows which adds 4 penetration and +5 Might for 20 seconds for one wound. Currently any Monk can have a base 9 penetration after taking Thunderous Blows at tier four, the same as an Estoc.

 

I can see the argument that proficient fists would add too much.

 

I'd rather see them stay the same then have other powers nerfed as everyone isn't a Devoted, a Fighter multi or a Barbarian. Plus you can use weapons and benefit normally.

[dam]

 

Any ideas for what a Fists modal might do?

 

I could see a raw damage DoT called dirty boxing or cheap shot.

 

 

 

 

If they do get a fist proficiency a Devoted/Monk will have 5+3+4 = 12 penetration not counting whatever Transcendental suffering adds. Monks have Thunderous Blows which adds 4 penetration and +5 Might for 20 seconds for one wound. Currently any Monk can have a base 9 penetration after taking Thunderous Blows at tier four, the same as an Estoc.

 

I can see the argument that proficient fists would add too much.

 

I'd rather see them stay the same then have other powers nerfed as everyone isn't a Devoted, a Fighter multi or a Barbarian. Plus you can use weapons and benefit normally.

 

 

You're talking about a multi-class here, which is a specific case.

All the same, an assassin Monk gets a bonus to accuracy and pen with Assassinate.

 

You're basically saying "monks are fine (as long as they have this other class' ability", that is not fine.

It's like saying "hey you know, car without an engine is fine as long as you don't need to erm, well, drive".

[KDubya]

 

 

Any ideas for what a Fists modal might do?

 

I could see a raw damage DoT called dirty boxing or cheap shot.

 

 

 

 

If they do get a fist proficiency a Devoted/Monk will have 5+3+4 = 12 penetration not counting whatever Transcendental suffering adds. Monks have Thunderous Blows which adds 4 penetration and +5 Might for 20 seconds for one wound. Currently any Monk can have a base 9 penetration after taking Thunderous Blows at tier four, the same as an Estoc.

 

I can see the argument that proficient fists would add too much.

 

I'd rather see them stay the same then have other powers nerfed as everyone isn't a Devoted, a Fighter multi or a Barbarian. Plus you can use weapons and benefit normally.

 

 

You're talking about a multi-class here, which is a specific case.

All the same, an assassin Monk gets a bonus to accuracy and pen with Assassinate.

 

You're basically saying "monks are fine (as long as they have this other class' ability", that is not fine.

It's like saying "hey you know, car without an engine is fine as long as you don't need to erm, well, drive".

 

 

A pure Monk will not be worrying about missing out on his Fighter or Barbarian abilities

 

By not needing a proficiency Monks get fists for free. 

 

Missing out on a weapon modal is pretty minor, especially since you did not have to spend the point. What super strong modal do you think fists would get anyway? Most are fairly trivial with a few 'never use without activating' level of usefulness.

 

I think Monks, specifically Shattered Pillars mixed with anything is a great build. Weapon use is great and soon once melee weapons get their correct recovery fists with their fast speed will shine. 

 

EDIT - A pure Shattered Pillar will still do excellent and will shine when only they can get to whatever top tier powers there are. Where are Monks coming up short?

 

 

 

Shed a tear for people trying to make blaster wizards or Priests with any variety but cry not for the uber-Monk!!!

Edited November 23, 2017 by KDubya

[dam]

By not needing a proficiency Monks get fists for free. 

 

No, they don't.

What they get is the opportunity to pick a different proficiency, which they will not use.

 

Arguing that fists scaling automatically is a free proficiency is akin to saying accuracy for power levels is a free proficiency, or spell pen for power levels is a free proficiency.

Neither are.

 

Further to the point, weapons can come with additional effects (crit multiplier, prone on crit, spell striking...), which fists do not.

Edit:

To clarify this sentence, people who decide on using fists knowingly give up on these extra effects and bonii.

Denying them a proficiency (or the dual-wield bonus for example if fists aren't classified as melee weapons), further adds to this penalty.

 

There are very little (if any) balance reasons to deny characters the ability to specialize in fists, just like there are none for not being able to pick Clubs either (that, or I'm blind, anyone see Clubs in the proficiency choices ?).

 

 

 

Missing out on a weapon modal is pretty minor, especially since you did not have to spend the point. What super strong modal do you think fists would get anyway? Most are fairly trivial with a few 'never use without activating' level of usefulness.

 

You're right of course.

Let's remove all weapon modals, they're pretty minor, especially since people need to spend the point.

 

 

On topic, spend what point, actually ?

You're making it seems like proficiencies cost ability/talent points, giving Monks an edge in that it's an extra point they get to use elsewhere.

That is factually incorrect I am afraid.

Edited November 23, 2017 by dam

[Nail]

Maybe Cantor will do fine with AP debuffs?

 

[dam]

Maybe Cantor will do fine with AP debuffs?

 

I see a lot of focus on multiclassing options in these balance threads for priests, wizards, warriors whatever...

 

Please keep in mind multiclassing comes at a cost, that of advancing power levels more slowly and likely missing out on the class' top tier abilities.

[KDubya]

 

By not needing a proficiency Monks get fists for free. 

 

No, they don't.

What they get is the opportunity to pick a different proficiency, which they will not use.

 

Arguing that fists scaling automatically is a free proficiency is akin to saying accuracy for power levels is a free proficiency, or spell pen for power levels is a free proficiency.

Neither are.

 

Further to the point, weapons can come with additional effects (crit multiplier, prone on crit, spell striking...), which fists do not.

 

 

Missing out on a weapon modal is pretty minor, especially since you did not have to spend the point. What super strong modal do you think fists would get anyway? Most are fairly trivial with a few 'never use without activating' level of usefulness.

 

You're right of course.

Let's remove all weapon modals, they're pretty minor, especially since people need to spend the point.

 

 

On topic, spend what point, actually ?

You're making it seems like proficiencies cost ability/talent points, giving Monks an edge in that it's an extra point they get to use elsewhere.

That is factually incorrect I am afraid.

 

 

First off Monks are not only fist users, everything they have works just as well as with weapons. Using weapons then gives you all the little things you say are missing.

 

Secondly that unspent proficiency can be used to get shield proficiency or a ranged weapon for utility and alpha striking. Except for stunning Blows all the monk attacks are primary weapon not full attack so dual wielding adds nothing and shield use does not hamper, in fact the deflection boost from a shield will drastically improve Dance of Death. Hello Captain America

 

No need to get snarky about removing all modals. They add some cool effects but are not deal breakers either way.

 

The free point in proficiencies is from not having to take fists. I roll a monk and I can take a shield and a bow and still fight with fists. Or grab a sword, staff, whatever and get fists to use as well.

 

If you make fists a proficiency pick the unintended consequence will be in certain subclasses such as Devoted, you will get huge penetration. A Devoted with Thunderous Blows gets base 5+3 (Devoted) + 4 (Thunderous) + Transcendent +4or5 for a total of 16 penetration. Even if they don't stack you'd have 12 or 13 pen with fists and either Devoted or Thunderous which also is currently achievable and does not require any proficiency. 

 

Again what are Monks missing besides some sort of modal that may or may not ever get used?

[dam]

 

 

By not needing a proficiency Monks get fists for free. 

 

No, they don't.

What they get is the opportunity to pick a different proficiency, which they will not use.

 

Arguing that fists scaling automatically is a free proficiency is akin to saying accuracy for power levels is a free proficiency, or spell pen for power levels is a free proficiency.

Neither are.

 

Further to the point, weapons can come with additional effects (crit multiplier, prone on crit, spell striking...), which fists do not.

 

 

Missing out on a weapon modal is pretty minor, especially since you did not have to spend the point. What super strong modal do you think fists would get anyway? Most are fairly trivial with a few 'never use without activating' level of usefulness.

 

You're right of course.

Let's remove all weapon modals, they're pretty minor, especially since people need to spend the point.

 

 

On topic, spend what point, actually ?

You're making it seems like proficiencies cost ability/talent points, giving Monks an edge in that it's an extra point they get to use elsewhere.

That is factually incorrect I am afraid.

 

 

First off Monks are not only fist users, everything they have works just as well as with weapons. Using weapons then gives you all the little things you say are missing.

 

Secondly that unspent proficiency can be used to get shield proficiency or a ranged weapon for utility and alpha striking. Except for stunning Blows all the monk attacks are primary weapon not full attack so dual wielding adds nothing and shield use does not hamper, in fact the deflection boost from a shield will drastically improve Dance of Death. Hello Captain America

 

No need to get snarky about removing all modals. They add some cool effects but are not deal breakers either way.

 

The free point in proficiencies is from not having to take fists. I roll a monk and I can take a shield and a bow and still fight with fists. Or grab a sword, staff, whatever and get fists to use as well.

 

If you make fists a proficiency pick the unintended consequence will be in certain subclasses such as Devoted, you will get huge penetration. A Devoted with Thunderous Blows gets base 5+3 (Devoted) + 4 (Thunderous) + Transcendent +4or5 for a total of 16 penetration. Even if they don't stack you'd have 12 or 13 pen with fists and either Devoted or Thunderous which also is currently achievable and does not require any proficiency. 

 

Again what are Monks missing besides some sort of modal that may or may not ever get used?

 

 

With regards to point one, yup they can use other weapons, it's also, IMHO, a suboptimal choice because you're missing out on a core class bonus, and many other classes can do that much better.

 

 

With regards to point two :

- ranged monk, okay sure w/e

- stunning blows aren't the only full attack, Torment's Reach is as well, and there may be many more to come

 

 

With regards to point three, that is a subjective point of view : yours

It's not a deal breaker for you; do understand that it not being a deal breaker for you is absolutely, irrevocably irrelevant to me.

You won't be playing my playthroughs, I will, so to be fair I couldn't care less what is or is not a deal breaker to you.

Please take no offense, this is nothing personal, it's just how things are.

 

 

With regards to point four, I'd rather have a choice in the decision to go for shields, or fist prof see ?

Wanna get a shield on your monk ? go ahead, don't deny me the ability to pick fists instead.

This stance reminds me of a very hot thread back in the days when some people wanted a character Respec option, while some others fervently argued against it.

For some reason unknown, those against seemed to think that the option just being there would cheapen their game experience, even if nothing forced them to actually use it.

 

 

With regards to point five, that is again a very specific scenario, just like swift strikes + confident aim.

Specific cases must never be used as a base comparison point, that's why they're called specific...

Edit:

It is akin to saying "in 2% of the cases, this applies all the time !!"

Yeah well, then it doesn't apply all the time now does it ?

Therefore, it cannot be considered the rule, and must be considered the exception.

Edited November 23, 2017 by dam

[morhilane]

Is it set that we will be having enchantment? Because atm there's no such option. At least Josh said that things like lashes can't be enchanted anymore.

Quality enchantments seems to still be a thing at least.

[KDubya]

@Dam

 

In Deadfire Torment's Reach is a primary attack not full, as is Force of Anguish. They've changed from PoE so no need for dual wielding anymore, two handed or shield use still counts as a primary attack. In fact numbers wise a Great Sword probably makes for the biggest Torment's Reach now instead of Dual Sabers.

 

Regarding Monks and weapons: they use them as good as most and when paired with wound fueled Torments or Force of Anguish they can hang with anyone. Fighters get a limited number of knockdowns while as long as you have 2 wounds (one with the upgrade) you can fire off proning force of anguish until the end of time. As I've found that Torments can generate wounds for a Shattered Pillar I'd assume it works for FoA. With enough damage to generate a wound per each FoA you could chain them forever. 

[JerekKruger]

Quality enchantments seems to still be a thing at least.

 

Most enchantments will still be in the game as I understand it, but we will be limited in how far we can upgrade them. So, for example, you might only be able to upgrade a Fine weapon to an Exceptional weapon, but not to Superb or Legendary.

 

As for Lashes, it sounded like they would only exist as preexisting enchantments i.e. there would be weapons in game with Flaming Lashes but you wouldn't be able to add one to a weapon that doesn't start with one. The flip side of this was that lashes would be upgradeable, and there would likely be two (mutually exclusive) possible upgrades for each.

[blotter]

While I like the idea of an unarmed proficiency and was disappointed to learn that there were no plans to include one, I'd imagine the reasoning for not including one is that without the monk's Transcendent Suffering or the Novice's Suffering talent, fists really aren't going to cut it for anyone else. Since Novice's Suffering doesn't exist anymore, that limits the use of this proficiency to monks and monk multiclass combinations, something that seems to run counter to the design goals of the proficiency system overall insofar as they're supposed to be useful and accessible to a wide range of classes/builds.

 

If it's about getting access to a modal reflecting exceptional dedication to unarmed fighting techniques, that could be added as a monk talent without running into the balance issues that it might face if it was a proficiency (e.g., Transcendent Suffering stacking with the devoted's subclass bonuses, though perhaps the talent should exempt unarmed attacks from the subclass' drawbacks to at least allow the player to make an unarmed devoted/monk who isn't penalized outright for that choice, or the barbarian's Weapon Focus). Obviously, this has the disadvantage of doing nothing to address the initial criticism of having nothing worthwhile to sink proficiency points into if you're planning to focus on unarmed attacks, but this concern will be somewhat mitigated by the introduction of weapon styles (Two-Weapon Style worked for unarmed attacks in Pillars 1, for example) and save boosts as proficiency options anyway.

[dam]

While I like the idea of an unarmed proficiency and was disappointed to learn that there were no plans to include one, I'd imagine the reasoning for not including one is that without the monk's Transcendent Suffering or the Novice's Suffering talent, fists really aren't going to cut it for anyone else. Since Novice's Suffering doesn't exist anymore, that limits the use of this proficiency to monks and monk multiclass combinations, something that seems to run counter to the design goals of the proficiency system overall insofar as they're supposed to be useful and accessible to a wide range of classes/builds.

 

Em... arcane implements proficiency much ?

Like, who other than your wizard is going to use a wand...

[blotter]

Em... arcane implements proficiency much ?

 

 

 

Like, who other than your wizard is going to use a wand...

 

 

Those proficiencies aren't functionally bound to wizards in any way; the only thing that ever tied the weapons uniquely to them was Blast, and that's been opened up to anyone who spends a proficiency point on rods now. Whether implements are worth using in relation to other weapons is simply a question of balance, which can be adjusted.

[dam]

I get your point, I just do not agree with it.

 

 

If what you're saying is :

Any class can pick wands, even if it's suboptimal

 

Then I raise you :

Any class can pick fists, even if it's suboptimal

[blotter]

I get your point, I just do not agree with it.

 

 

If what you're saying is :

Any class can pick wands, even if it's suboptimal

 

Then I raise you :

Any class can pick fists, even if it's suboptimal

 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but your contention was that no one but wizards would have any reason to select implements. My understanding is that wizards have no particular advantage in using implements anymore (though I could be wrong since I haven't delved into this thoroughly). If my understanding is correct, then if implements are suboptimal, then it's a problem with general weapon balance/design that should be addressed rather than passively accepted (and to be honest, I can't really comment on how well the implements perform in comparison to other ranged weapons since my beta run-throughs haven't focused on that - there may not be a problem at all for all I know).

 

Your attempt to draw a parallel between fists and implements fails because they have different design goals and executions: the fact that fists are suboptimal without Transcendent Suffering is a function of current design goals, by which monks are supposed to be uniquely capable of posing threats as unarmed combatants.

 

Edit: And I'd like to emphasize that this isn't a position that I personally advocate; it's simply the rationale I suspect for the decision. They could probably make an unarmed proficiency relatively feasible by using it to reintroduce Novice's Suffering or by giving it a modal that has benefits that significantly outweigh the drawbacks. One problem that might then arise is that in making unarmed combat more viable for everyone else, Transcendent Suffering could push it over the edge for monks, but I don't think it's impossible to strike a balance here.

Edited November 23, 2017 by blotter