WIZARDS - feedback at first sight

[cheesevillain]

Lose 2 Schools, Get A 20% Recovery Penalty on another 2, and Bonuses only on 1 is just unfair especially if spellcasting is slower.

 

It seems overpowered to me. You're gaining a power point for free, and in exchange you're penalized for spells that you probably weren't intending on casting in the first place.

[cheesevillain]

Sawyer mentioned on twitter that they were going to try giving priests and druids an additional spell on hitting a new power level so they could choose 3 per level total for single class. Personally I'd like to see this applied to wizards as well, and reducing the set spells in grimoires to 1 per level instead of 2. It would allow for more personalized  builds, flexibility and then all traditional casters would follow a similar leveling structure.

 

Between unique set spells(shadowflame, crushing doom etc.) and interesting, powerful passives I think there would still be a big incentive to switch up grimoires with this change.

 

An important part of the new system where we  now collect Grimoires instead of Scribed Spells is that the Grimoires are supposed to feel like cool items in and of themselves.

Iirc, supposedly some of them will be unique items with special effects. Like, you'll get a Grimoire filled with Fire spells and +10% damage with fire spells. So, I'm not sure I agree that there should be a too big incentive to switch Grimoires, since that would conflict with the cool factor of wielding a unique one.

 

Priests and Druids really need that boost, but once they have it, they'll still be heavily outclassed by wizards for flexibility.

[demeisen]

 

So you certainly can "select your spell loadout", and you can do more than "only pick what's given to you", since the mix of Grimoires will cover all the spells in the game.

 

That's not the point.  You are restricted to the mix of spells in the grimoires you find, plus the static set you learned at level up which is likely to overlap somewhat.  You cannot select the specific spells you want.  It is vanishingly unlikely there will be a grimoire having the set of spells I want to use.  Just because you can switch grimoires, it does not alleviate that problem.

 

This is much more restrictive than POE1, and for no good reason.  It was not broken before, and does not need to be fixed.

[Katarack21]

 

​​But you can't select what's in the grimoire, so you can't select your own spell loadout - only pick from what's given to you.  Maybe it should better be called "semi-static", but anyway, it removes a key tactical dynamic of the class, which was being able to select my own spell set according to what I expected to encounter, and the tactics I wished to use.  Of all the grimoires I found in POE1, there was never one which was set up anything close to what I wanted, even if coupled with a small pool known by the character (and you don't really know without meta-gaming which you should best learn, since you don't know what will be in grimoires you encounter).

​

​I don't think it's a good change.

​

​Edit - hah, zeee just pipped me in saying the same thing

 

 

You can (A) select the spells you know, (B) select the Grimoire you want from the ones you've already collected, and ©, switch that Grimoire with others in combat if you need a different spell. So you certainly can "select your spell loadout", and you can do more than "only pick what's given to you", since the mix of Grimoires will cover all the spells in the game.

It's really no different from the same problem in PoE 1. In that game, you picked your spells at level--and also were able to pick up whatever spells the developers had deigned to provide for you in the grimoires that dropped. The difference is that now you have to carry those grimoires around *forever* if you want those spells, whereas before you could learn them and get rid of the inventory clutter.

[demeisen]

 

It's really no different from the same problem in PoE 1. In that game, you picked your spells at level--and also were able to pick up whatever spells the developers had deigned to provide for you in the grimoires that dropped. The difference is that now you have to carry those grimoires around *forever* if you want those spells, whereas before you could learn them and get rid of the inventory clutter.

 

 

I think I'd agree if you could edit the contents of the grimoires in POE2.  Could be I'm missing something important, but I thought that in POE1 I could pick any combination of spells to have at the ready (since I can learn them from grimoires, and also edit grimoires), whereas in 2, since you can't edit grimoires and can't learn spells from them either, you have a lot less flexibility over which to have ready simultaneously.

 

E.g, say there are spells A through Z.  In POE1 I could have literally any combination (within the max number to have at once).  In 2, I can only have the ones I've learned at level up, plus the fixed set from the grimoires.  Maybe I find a grimoire with [AGMX] and another with [bCFQ], but what i really want at the moment is [AGFQ].  I can't get that no matter how I swap around the grimoires, if I didn't pick those at level up.

 

No?  Certainly I'd love to be wrong...

Edited November 19, 2017 by demeisen

[Katarack21]

 

 

It's really no different from the same problem in PoE 1. In that game, you picked your spells at level--and also were able to pick up whatever spells the developers had deigned to provide for you in the grimoires that dropped. The difference is that now you have to carry those grimoires around *forever* if you want those spells, whereas before you could learn them and get rid of the inventory clutter.

 

E.g, say there are spells A through Z.  In POE1 I could have literally any combination (within the max number to have at once).

Yes...as long as you *picked them at level up* or *found them in a dropped grimoire*. If you didn't do either of those things, you don't have it. In PoE 2, if you don't *pick it at level up* or *find it in a dropped grimoire*, you don't have it. The problem is the same--the difference is, as you said, in PoE 1 you could learn spells from grimoires and edit grimoires, so that *eventually* you could have every spell available known and choose which ones to have in your grimoire. In PoE 2, you will *eventually* have every spell accessible, only you'll have to switch out grimoires instead of planning what to have in your grimoire.

 

The biggest draw back is that you won't be able to *order* which spells you have available without switching. You might want to cast paralyze and then fireball, but have to switch out between two grimoires--but you can always plan ahead for specific tactics and take *those* spells at level up.

[ghostwriter]

 

Sawyer mentioned on twitter that they were going to try giving priests and druids an additional spell on hitting a new power level so they could choose 3 per level total for single class. Personally I'd like to see this applied to wizards as well, and reducing the set spells in grimoires to 1 per level instead of 2. It would allow for more personalized  builds, flexibility and then all traditional casters would follow a similar leveling structure.

 

Between unique set spells(shadowflame, crushing doom etc.) and interesting, powerful passives I think there would still be a big incentive to switch up grimoires with this change.

 

An important part of the new system where we  now collect Grimoires instead of Scribed Spells is that the Grimoires are supposed to feel like cool items in and of themselves.

Iirc, supposedly some of them will be unique items with special effects. Like, you'll get a Grimoire filled with Fire spells and +10% damage with fire spells. So, I'm not sure I agree that there should be a too big incentive to switch Grimoires, since that would conflict with the cool factor of wielding a unique one.

 

Priests and Druids really need that boost, but once they have it, they'll still be heavily outclassed by wizards for flexibility.

 

 

I'm not sure you understood what I meant. Obviously the change to grimoires was specifically designed to make you experiment with different ones throughout the game and maybe finally settle on one that best suited your wizard. I was just pointing out that this aspect of wizard gameplay still existed even if you reduced the number of set spells from 2 to 1, because of interesting grimoire passive boosts and unique set spells in the grimoire.

[cheesevillain]

The biggest draw back is that you won't be able to *order* which spells you have available without switching. You might want to cast paralyze and then fireball, but have to switch out between two grimoires--but you can always plan ahead for specific tactics and take *those* spells at level up.

 

 

 

There SHOULD be some sort of drawback for wizards. Every other class has limitations, and no single build can do take advantage of every single toy which that class offers. Wizards still are unique in that you can get every single damn toy. Having to wait a few seconds between two spells is not a significant drawback.

 

It's also a drawback that makes (a) your choice of spells at levelup a worthwhile choice, and (b) your choice of grimoires that your carry a valuable choice. In PoE1, your choices of spells learned and grimoires were almost completely pointless. And that made building a wizard seriously lame.

 

And last of all, there were very, very few people who played through PoE1 and used even 1/3 of the total spells for wizards. There's a crazy large selection. It feels really cool to be spoiled for choice for spells as a wizard, and you still will be in PoE2..

Edited November 19, 2017 by cheesevillain

[Katarack21]

 

The biggest draw back is that you won't be able to *order* which spells you have available without switching. You might want to cast paralyze and then fireball, but have to switch out between two grimoires--but you can always plan ahead for specific tactics and take *those* spells at level up.

 

 

 

It's also a drawback that makes (a) your choice of spells at levelup a worthwhile choice, and (b) your choice of grimoires that your carry a valuable choice. In PoE1, your choices of spells learned and grimoires were almost completely pointless. And that made building a wizard seriously lame.

 

That's one perspective. On the other hand, that experience of finding a good spell and learning it--of finding and learning, myself, some rare and powerful spell, was something I valued. It made me feel like I was becoming some great and powerful wizard, whereas now it's just "I have a really nice spell book." Becoming a powerful wizard is, like with every other class, just a process of getting better equipment.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Katarack21

[cheesevillain]

That's one perspective. On the other hand, that experience of finding a good spell and learning it--of finding and learning, myself, some rare and powerful spell, was something I valued. It made me feel like I was becoming some great and powerful wizard, whereas now it's just "I have a really nice spell book." Becoming a powerful wizard is, like with every other class, just a process of getting better equipment.

 

 

 

I remember feeling the same way, until halfway through my first play through when I realized that both the wizards in my party, who I'd been careful to build differently, were slowly becoming identical builds.

That's when I realized that the "scribe spell" mechanic was cheap way to make wizards feel powerful, at the cost of making them ever feel distinct.

[rothamon81]

Actually, I think those subclasses are not that a bad idea, since you can have only two spells per level to select it makes sense to pick spells of that specialization to use that have improved power and feel a difference between specialized wizards moreso than what is provided by those extras abilities. Though it doesn't feel like a "usual" wizard anymore, more like a sorcerer with even less spells using D&D comparison.

 

Another thing is, if you play for example an envoker, and get an envoker specialized grimoire (even with other bonuses) chances are that there are spells in it that you have already chosen, since there are not that many spells to choose from when 2 schools are already forbidden (can we have more spells please? since PoE2 is bigger and better). That means you'll reroll character at tavern (if that is still possible) to choose others. And that will happen quite often since grimoires at early and midgame probably wont go up to lvl 9 spells. Furthermore, I don't think rerolling a char that often was intended to be part of usual gameplay mechanic.

 

Btw. since max level is 20, doesn't that mean there will be lvl 10 spells/skills? Lvl 3: 2nd, L5: 3rd, L7: 4th and so on to L17: 9th, and presumably L19: 10th? And if there are no Lvl 10 spells, what is there to do from 18-20 if you can only choose spells?

[morhilane]

Btw. since max level is 20, doesn't that mean there will be lvl 10 spells/skills? Lvl 3: 2nd, L5: 3rd, L7: 4th and so on to L17: 9th, and presumably L19: 10th? And if there are no Lvl 10 spells, what is there to do from 18-20 if you can only choose spells?

Power level cap at 9. Past level 6 you gain new power level every 3 character level instead of 2 (slower for multiclassed, they cap at power level 7).

[Silvaren]

Is it normal that "Destructive channeling" - modal skill from scepter proficiency affects damage of spells with +2 penetration and +20% damage?

 

I'm not sure about other subclass, but I go with Evoker and this subclass has 30% chance to repeat casting of evocation spell after 0,1 sec. It's incredibly powerful. especially with empower - but still random.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Silvaren

[demeisen]

​​

There SHOULD be some sort of drawback for wizards.

 

Traditionally (not POE1 per se), with per-rest systems and truly limited resting, wizards/druids/etc are limited in how many times they can cast spells.  A fighter can swing his sword 1000 times over the day, and is free to switch at any time to any kind of weapon as is best for each foe.  A wizard gets maybe 1-6 casts between rests per character level from a small subset of the whole catalog she had to select in advance, and cannot change until the next time she can rest. Thus, they have to act in a measured way.  If they blow through everything on a weak initial foe, they're left useless for the rest of the dungeon.

​

​This is why there should be meaningful rest limitations, and spells should be per rest, not per encounter. This, however, required gamers to adopt a longer term mindset and consider a larger scope than a single fight. Instead of doing just enough to tilt the balance of the fight in your favor - and that might sometimes be "nothing at all" - people wanted to blow through the whole spell inventory each fight to "feel powerful", and game designers catered to that crowd with unlimited resting.​

 

​I'd prefer to see a return to longer term planning as an option.  Clearly many people don't want it, but many also do.

​

[demeisen]

​

 

If you didn't do either of those things, you don't have it. In PoE 2, if you don't *pick it at level up* or *find it in a dropped grimoire*, you don't have it. The problem is the same--the difference is, as you said, in PoE 1 you could learn spells from grimoires and edit grimoires, so that *eventually* you could have every spell available known and choose which ones to have in your grimoire.

 

​But the point I'm making isn't about how many spells you know, it's about the combinatorics.  In POE1, I can select the combinations in interesting and novel ways according to the expected threat and the tactics I want to meet it with.  In POE2, you (mostly) cannot, since you cannot edit the grimoires, nor learn spells from them.  The combinations are static, which removes an entire strategic dimension.  That's the problem: I'm now restricted to a small set of combinations the game decides I should be using, as dictated by the grimoires it supplies to me, plus a small selection I can learn at level up which is likely to overlap with the grimoires anyway.

​

​I don't think they're comparable situations at all.  And if they ARE comparable, then there's no reason to have this restriction, so might as well let people edit the grimoires.  I think that'd work well as a low level character ability.

​

[rothamon81]

Maybe there will be some sort of crafting possibility with limited ressource to change grimoires, or some sort of improving them, maybe even some gameplay choices for a reward or some (evil) choices a la Skaen.

"Skaen: Would you sacrifice the sould of a beloved companion to improve your magical power beyond your dreams? Watcher: Well I can dream pretty big, so I'll take 4 times magical power beyond my dreams, and what do i get for like 2 dozens of crewmen?"

[dam]

​​

There SHOULD be some sort of drawback for wizards.

 

Traditionally (not POE1 per se), with per-rest systems and truly limited resting, wizards/druids/etc are limited in how many times they can cast spells.  A fighter can swing his sword 1000 times over the day

 

Erm, so it's realistic for the wizard to be limited in how many times he can call upon the Weave (or rest), but the fighter can, quote, swing his sword 1k times over the day ?

 

Bitch better have mechanical arms cause he oughta be tiring at some point...

[dam]

Is it normal that "Destructive channeling" - modal skill from scepter proficiency affects damage of spells with +2 penetration and +20% damage?

 

I'm not sure about other subclass, but I go with Evoker and this subclass has 30% chance to repeat casting of evocation spell after 0,1 sec. It's incredibly powerful in case of damaging spells, but I gues if other subclasses has the same bonus for casting spells of primary school the second time instantly for free it affects effectiveness of aplying affictions etc. Generally - you have 30% chance for rolling twice for hit, so if you missed or graze with affiction there is a chance that the second spell will have 100% hit and do better than the first one. This is basicaly free use of spell per encounter if you have luck.

 

IDK, 30% chance to be defeated by penetration/armor again seems kinda meh, in the current state of things.

 

On paper it looks absolutely gorgeous.

In reality, it sucks donkey balls by the dozen thanks to Pen.

 

 

Edit: clarification

Edited November 21, 2017 by dam

[Skaddix]

How bad is the pen on the pure wizard? Cause you 30% chance on a multiclass is basically zero damage every time. Honestly, you are best casting buffs since they have fast casting times and dont have pen issues

[Boeroer]

Yes - best way to use a wizard at the moment is to multiclass with a martial class and make use of the self buffs only (because they are very good compared to all the offensiv spells).

[dam]

Yup, use your wizard as a CC/debuff machine and you'll avoid the Pen issue entirely \o/

 

 

 

One of the huge arguments in favour of Ciphers in POE1 was spammable CC (well, spammable spells in general to be fair).

Now that wizards also get per-encounter spells (if not spammable, still a good start), in the game's current state, you're better off using them either as multis as per @Boeroer 's suggestion, or as CC/debuffers as per mine

[Skaddix]

Yes - best way to use a wizard at the moment is to multiclass with a martial class and make use of the self buffs only (because they are very good compared to all the offensiv spells).

 

 

And not the summoned weapons it should be noted cause the fights done when you finish casting lol. 

 

Granted Evocation tends to always be like that broken or useless. The pen doesn't help of course.

[dam]

 

Yes - best way to use a wizard at the moment is to multiclass with a martial class and make use of the self buffs only (because they are very good compared to all the offensiv spells).

 

 

And not the summoned weapons it should be noted cause the fights done when you finish casting lol. 

 

Granted Evocation tends to always be like that broken or useless. The pen doesn't help of course.

 

 

There's news on the Pen front, bois

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94716-beta-patch-info-from-joshs-twitter/

[Rooksx]

This enforced grimoire switching sounds like a pain in the arse, something that's going to be really fiddly and essentially crowbar inventory management into combat. Limiting the wizard to two spells per spell level is enough of a restriction, maybe even a bit excessive. What is the point of this further grimoire limitation? What problem are Obsidian trying to solve?

[Boeroer]

What enforced Grimoires switching?