Removing non class specific talents was a bad idea

[theBalthazar]

There is no confirmation bias.

 

Boeroer said a simple things :

 

a class is now a massive cube with all his stuff.

 

The principal pleasure is flexibility in PoE 1. With singleclass in POE2 we have less flexibility. it is a fact.

 

I call this "The changement over time". Maintain player interrest. Each level. = is not great now.

 

In PoE there an alternance with talents / powers, now ? At the creation all is determinate.

 

"Building" a character is less attractive. Not underestimate the different choices, over time, of the player. Especially for single class, now.

 

More, in POE 2 I expected more than less Talents/possibilities.

 

The first impression is not great : 90 % of similar things for now (same for spells anyway...) And it is lock to class.

Edited November 16, 2017 by theBalthazar

[DigitalCrack]

There is no confirmation bias.

 

Boeroer said a simple things :

 

a class is now a massive cube with all his stuff.

 

The principal pleasure is flexibility in PoE 1. With singleclass in POE2 we have less flexibility. it is a fact.

 

I call this "The changement over time". Maintain player interrest. Each level. = is not great now.

 

In PoE there an alternance with talents / powers, now ? At the creation all is determinate.

 

"Building" a character is less attractive. Not underestimate the different choices, over time, of the player. Especially for single class, now.

 

More, in POE 2 I expected more than less Talents/possibilities.

 

The first impression is not great : 90 % of similar things for now (same for spells anyway...) And it is lock to class.

One thing to add is we actually have some subclasses that actually hurt themselves unless you multiclass as a result of how rigidly classes are structured. For example look at the stalker subclass for ranger. designed to incentivise melee for ranger yet ranger HAS NO MELEE. the subclass forces you to be closer to your pet at all times for extra bonuses or you suffer bonded grief yet when you inspect the stalker tree (which is identical to base ranger) its all ranged passives and actives and then pet stuff... A single classed stalker is basically pointless unless you multiclass. Not saying we need PoE1 carbon copy but there should be a general pool of some sort or at least shared general abilities that are shared by multiple class trees.

 

Edit: Is there a reason, for example, that multiple classes couldnt share some of the weapon based general talents. Likesure fighter has access to all of them basically (which makes sense) but then why couldnt some of the other classe get some of them here and there. like barbarians also getting two handed style or rangers getting dual wield talent? Is there a reason that at least some talent couldnt be shared by 3-4 classes instead of all talent being totally exclusive to a specific class?

Edited November 16, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[morhilane]

 

Chanter have their chant as passive which is kinda weird, especially when I remember Josh saying selection was not limited per level.???

What do you mean by passive? Isn't that just the UI label thing? I thought the chanting menu/system has remained as it was, with phrases being chanted sequentially.

 

Btw, yeah, I remember as well, Josh was indeed mentioning that all phrases will be available for learning from the start. I was wondering at that time what he gonna do with Dragon Trashed.

 

It's a label thing, kinda. The Chant are on the passive side, but Ancient Memory, which used to be a passive, is now a chant too, so the class has no passive at all. The class feels a lot more like just another Priest that you don't have to maintain as much.

[draego]

+1 Boeroer we need some single class love. I agree you should not have to nerf your single class with multiclass in order to fill a viable roll you wish in the party. This only works with general abilities.

Edited November 16, 2017 by draego

[MortyTheGobbo]

Having passive and active abilities use the same "currency" strikes me as questionable in general. It was already a thing in Pillars 1, for many classes, but I had problems with it then, too.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I absolutely loved that update where Josh head almost explodes from all the possible multiclass combos.

Little did I know that our beloved single class build freedom was thrown under the bus as some sort of compensation.

 

There's so much wonderful stuff in PoE2, most of it improvements or meat on the game itself.

 

It makes no sense whatsoever to make vanilla-flavoured single classes.

Hmm, let me rephrase it. Single classes drained of almost all life, with no taste to them at all. Lemba bread classes!

Look at what happened to Sword Coast Legends, where the devs replaced all the D&D intricacies with barebone "trees", or rather just one or two straight twigs or branches.

 

The solution is reasonably simple. Let PoE2 have a generous pool with general abilities for single classes (all classes, in effect).

Edited November 16, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[DozingDragon]

Proficiencies largely replace general talents in Deadfire. While the complete lack of passive abilities for some classes should be addressed by adding a small number of class-appropriate passive abilities, I think the system is actually pretty good. However, I wonder if more general talents that are not weapon specific could becshoehorned into proficiency selection. As long as those talents are balanced in the same way, i.,e., modals with a benefit and a penalty, then that could add to the overall level of build variety.

 

Also, I am surprised no class has access to something like field triage to mitigate the need to rest after a single character gets knocked out during a combat.

Edited November 16, 2017 by DozingDragon

[DigitalCrack]

Proficiencies largely replace general talents in Deadfire. While the complete lack of passive abilities for some classes should be addressed by adding a small number of class-appropriate passive abilities, I think the system is actually pretty good. However, I wonder if more general talents that are not weapon specific could becshoehorned into proficiency selection. As long as those talents are balanced in the same way, i.,e., modals with a benefit and a penalty, then that could add to the overall level of build variety.

 

Also, I am surprised no class has acces to something like field triage to mitigate the need to rest after a single character gets knocked out during a combat.

Yeah I was thinking that we could at least have more talents cross over 3-4 classes if they wont do a general pool. At least that could add some much needed flavor to individual classes.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I reckon there should be some general weapon talents as well.

Josh's selling point of his system for PoE1 was a wizard that's strong, durable, and which uses heavy weapons or armour, if they want to.

Let us not lose that. I want to play a sword and board wizard, if I feel like it.

[DCParry]

I think we are getting too focused on the distinction between multi and single class. A vast majority of the combinations of the non- flavour skill sets can be acquired through multi-class. The system is different but from my (very limited) experience I think the range is there. 

 

I am a big fan of the new focus class builds, and I look forward to playing around with them. 

[dunehunter]

For example, paladin have One passive talent 'Divine Purpose' which gives him/her 3 stats affliction resistance type, and then he/she need to spend another THREE talent to cover the other 3 stats affliction resist. Same as fighter, which have 'Determination' gives 3 stats affliction resistance. 

 

This kinda of talent design makes single class a lot inferior to multiclass, like why would I spend 4 talent points to cover my stats resistance when I can just do Paladin/Figher and just spend 2 talent points to do the same thing?

[DCParry]

I reckon there should be some general weapon talents as well.

Josh's selling point of his system for PoE1 was a wizard that's strong, durable, and which uses heavy weapons or armour, if they want to.

Let us not lose that. I want to play a sword and board wizard, if I feel like it.

 

If only you could do this. 

 

Oh wait. I think you can. 

 

EDIT: MULLLLLLTTTTIBALL

 

Sorry.

Edited November 16, 2017 by DCParry

[Breckmoney]

At first blush I agree that individual classes need a few more options and flavor but I think I'd rather it be done with more class specific abilities and talents than a large pool of generalized stuff that anyone can pick from. Put that stuff on items instead and let itemization play a bigger role in filling out those small holes in a build you want. For now at least I like single classes being more specialized, I think they just need a bit more within that specialization.

[draego]

I think we are getting too focused on the distinction between multi and single class. A vast majority of the combinations of the non- flavour skill sets can be acquired through multi-class. The system is different but from my (very limited) experience I think the range is there. 

 

I am a big fan of the new focus class builds, and I look forward to playing around with them. 

 

Part of the issue is you have to give up high level abilities to do this. So if you make a single class you have way less flexibility in design just so you can reach the final abilities. You shouldnot be forced into that choice. The singles classes should be more flexible and they can be without giving them OP abilities from other classes like in POE1 and still allow you to reach the final abilities of the class.

 

There is also a design philosophy from the first game that is changing slightly. POE1 you can create a viable character you envision. In POE1 you could say i like the lore of priest and what they stand for now let me make them a tank. Now it feels like you have a character in your head and the have to find a matching class to that character. You cant simply enjoy a class and make them viable in a role because the single classes are more restricted. I do get that multi is suppose to 'fix' that. I havent gone through the beta extensively so i dont want to say this is the end of world or something just speculating. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by draego

[DigitalCrack]

 

I reckon there should be some general weapon talents as well.

Josh's selling point of his system for PoE1 was a wizard that's strong, durable, and which uses heavy weapons or armour, if they want to.

Let us not lose that. I want to play a sword and board wizard, if I feel like it.

If only you could do this.

 

Oh wait. I think you can.

 

EDIT: MULLLLLLTTTTIBALL

 

Sorry.

Not without multiclassing though and I think that where the gripe is. Some of us think we should maintained class flexibility AND have multiclassing as an option. That aside multiclassing does not fix issues of rigidity for all the classes. Look at Rangers for instance no reason to ever multiclass them for melee in their current state and one of their subs is geared toward melee despite the class itself having no melee. Its not just the ranger we have a few classes/subclasses that face similar issues..

[Boeroer]

I don't know about ranger, spec. Stalker because I didn't have a lot of time to check all classes and class trees. Are you sure that the abilites of the ranger tree don't work in melee? Because in PoE they also were named "Wounding Shot" or "Stunning Shots" but despite the word "shot" they worked in melee.

[DigitalCrack]

I don't know about ranger, spec. Stalker because I didn't have a lot of time to check all classes and class trees. Are you sure that the abilites of the ranger tree don't work in melee? Because in PoE they also were named "Wounding Shot" or "Stunning Shots" but despite the word "shot" they worked in melee.

Yes, wounding shot is greyed out and not selectable in combat unless you have a ranged weapon.. Most everything that isnt pet related active or passive only affects/works with ranged weapons.

Edited November 16, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[Boeroer]

How stupid is that?

[DigitalCrack]

How stupid is that?

Thats why I was saying that the stalker sub literally works against itself unless you multiclass.

[draego]

I don't know about ranger, spec. Stalker because I didn't have a lot of time to check all classes and class trees. Are you sure that the abilites of the ranger tree don't work in melee? Because in PoE they also were named "Wounding Shot" or "Stunning Shots" but despite the word "shot" they worked in melee.

 

They have the usual binding roots, marked prey, defensive talent, stalkers link that 'work' in melee (i am actually not sure about this because i havent testing yet them so maybe maybe not just looking at the tree) but no active melee it seems and ye they took wounding shots, im worried about stunning shots  . that is basically the melee ability for ranger and was different from other classes

Edited November 16, 2017 by draego

[Ganrich]

Yikes, that is really bad. All ranger abilities should work with melee like PoE1 IMHO. I definitely saw a few subclasses that looked like they wouldn't work too well being multiclassed, but wanted to wait and try it out before commenting. I didn't have the time to get very far yesterday. The game kept crashing on my first character (skald/paladin).

 

All subclasses should be viable to multiclass, and the classes need more variability being single classed. And what kind of nonsense is a subclass that can't use his class specific skills?

[DigitalCrack]

 

I don't know about ranger, spec. Stalker because I didn't have a lot of time to check all classes and class trees. Are you sure that the abilites of the ranger tree don't work in melee? Because in PoE they also were named "Wounding Shot" or "Stunning Shots" but despite the word "shot" they worked in melee.

They have the usual binding roots, marked prey, defensive talent, stalkers link that 'work' in melee (i am actually not sure about this because i havent testing yet them so maybe maybe not just looking at the tree) but no active melee it seems and ye they took wounding shots, im worried about stunning shots . that is basically the melee ability for ranger and was different from other classes

I will look again later today but I think even stalkers link is ranged only now too. Marked prey and binding roots is about it for melee and thats only cause they are not weapon dependent. Go through the passives for ranger and I believe they are all tagged "with ranged" Edit: and thats a hard rule not like PoE1 where all of those "ranged" talents still worked with melee. Edited November 16, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[ghostwriter]

I agree with Gromnir on this. While a lot of these general talents had uses in experimental and off the wall builds by players on these forums, I think many of them felt useless to the majority of the player base and were never picked. As has already been pointed out, getting rid of them makes single classes more distinct yet also more limited. However every single class(with the exception of the ranger) still has at least a couple of roles it could perform well in the party, and if you want to expand on those there is the subclass and multiclass features available to the tinkerers on these boards.

 

Also I think reintroducing general talents would cause a big problem for single class casters in this system. Since spells/abilities/talents have been merged, and you only get one per class level to choose from, you might end up with a caster that has zero picks in a particular spell level because the player felt they needed to take a few general talents for their build.

[dunehunter]

Also I think reintroducing general talents would cause a big problem for single class casters in this system. Since spells/abilities/talents have been merged, and you only get one per class level to choose from, you might end up with a caster that has zero picks in a particular spell level because the player felt they needed to take a few general talents for their build.

 

If a player thinks they need to take a few general talents for their build, even that means they haven't pick spells, its the choice made by ppls, and they shall be ALLOWED to do so. I really don't think your argument is very persuasive/reasonable here. It might be a newbie-trap, but thats all.

Edited November 16, 2017 by dunehunter

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Also I think reintroducing general talents would cause a big problem for single class casters in this system. Since spells/abilities/talents have been merged, and you only get one per class level to choose from, you might end up with a caster that has zero picks in a particular spell level because the player felt they needed to take a few general talents for their build.

 

If a player thinks they need to take a few general talents for their build, even that means they haven't pick spells, its the choice made by ppls, and they shall be ALLOWED to do so. I really don't think your argument is very persuasive/reasonable here. It might be a newbie-trap, but thats all.

 

The very fact that PoE1 allowed for this build diversity and build choices at level ups is a testament to how well that system worked, how much depth it had, despite a few shortcomings here and there.