Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

 

 

 

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time

Pot...kettle...black. Hil-ari-ous!

Hey, that's being unfair to Jerek. I've yet to see him ever behaving in an "unintelligent" fashion - or unnecessarily argumentative.

That wasn't a crippling strike aimed at Jerek. It was a wounding shot aimed at the Red Dragon.

[Lampros]

 

 

 

 

 

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time

Pot...kettle...black. Hil-ari-ous!

Hey, that's being unfair to Jerek. I've yet to see him ever behaving in an "unintelligent" fashion - or unnecessarily argumentative.

That wasn't a crippling strike aimed at Jerek. It was a wounding shot aimed at the Red Dragon.

 

 

Yeah, I was bantering myself!

[firkraag888]

WOW. So many people finally not falling for the absolute BS statements and comments about how people on this forum slander rogues who call them one of the weakest classes.

 

Ive have been slowly watching many long time users on this forum slander rogues because it became personal for them because they didn't want to lose an argument with previous posters.

 

Thank you so much everyone who has come to my support and know hopefully the people who slander rogues for no other reason then they don't want to loose an argument will stop.

 

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

A ROGUE WILL COMPLETELY DESTROY A BARB ANY DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!

[JerekKruger]

The phrase 'projecting' springs to mind.

[Boeroer]

Ok, let me summarize what happened so far:

 

- firkraag888 claims that a dual wielding rogue will severely outdamage a *ranger*.

 

- Kaylon shows that this is not he case.

 

- firkraag888 thanks unknown crowd for supporting him in winning this argument and shouts that a rogue will completely destroy a *barb* any day.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[Dr <3]

 

All classes are overpowered, especially from Level 11 on. So yeah, rogues are overpowered too. There has been several threads about power comparisons and there has been consent, that the answer depends on your play style as well as playing and party mode. There has also been quite some (although not perfect) consent among the experienced players, that rogues are among the weaker classes in the game (in relative comparison to other classes) because they lack AoE Damage and AoE CC effects (plus some consider them squishy).

 

I still like playing rogues over many other classes although I consider them the weakest class by far (or should I say I like them BECAUSE I don't consider them as overpowered - but still overpowered - as the other classes). It does not make you a bad person if you love a class that many others consider weaker than other classes (but still overpowered). It's totally fine to say that.

 

So please continue to love the rogue - it's about enjoying the game and liking your characters, not about relative power.

100% agree.

 

If you like rogues fine, they are fun to play. But that doesn't make them any better, this is the point.

 

The relative strenght of tge various classes is a complicated matter and in a sense also a sujective obe, since it is heavily influenced by party composition and playstile.

 

For example the best dps in game is a druid with priest/paladin and chanter support, you will never reach something like that with a rogue. But that doesn't alone make the spiritshift build the " best" char in game.

 

On the other side i like to play solo, and i found barbarian to be much more reliable ( more hp and endurance) and strong ( much higher dps in a crowd, and from lvl 11 you can clean entire encounter with 1 shot) than rogue, at least with my playstyle. That didn't prevent wodjee to achieve an ultimate with him. But to be honest the simple fact that him did the ultimate with the rogue was considered exeptional by itself actually because is much harder than do the same with other classes.

[Lampros]

 

All classes are overpowered, especially from Level 11 on. So yeah, rogues are overpowered too. There has been several threads about power comparisons and there has been consent, that the answer depends on your play style as well as playing and party mode. There has also been quite some (although not perfect) consent among the experienced players, that rogues are among the weaker classes in the game (in relative comparison to other classes) because they lack AoE Damage and AoE CC effects (plus some consider them squishy).

 

I still like playing rogues over many other classes although I consider them the weakest class by far (or should I say I like them BECAUSE I don't consider them as overpowered - but still overpowered - as the other classes). It does not make you a bad person if you love a class that many others consider weaker than other classes (but still overpowered). It's totally fine to say that.

 

So please continue to love the rogue - it's about enjoying the game and liking your characters, not about relative power.

100% agree.

 

If you like rogues fine, they are fun to play. But that doesn't make them any better, this is the point.

 

The relative strenght of tge various classes is a complicated matter and in a sense also a sujective obe, since it is heavily influenced by party composition and playstile.

 

For example the best dps in game is a druid with priest/paladin and chanter support, you will never reach something like that with a rogue. But that doesn't alone make the spiritshift build the " best" char in game.

 

On the other side i like to play solo, and i found barbarian to be much more reliable ( more hp and endurance) and strong ( much higher dps in a crowd, and from lvl 11 you can clean entire encounter with 1 shot) than rogue, at least with my playstyle. That didn't prevent wodjee to achieve an ultimate with him. But to be honest the simple fact that him did the ultimate with the rogue was considered exeptional by itself actually because is much harder than do the same with other classes.

 

 

Does Druid really do the best DPS in the game? Is it based on blowing per rest casts every fight? Just curious what the exact set-up is.

[grausch]

That didn't prevent wodjee to achieve an ultimate with him. But to be honest the simple fact that him did the ultimate with the rogue was considered exeptional by itself actually because is much harder than do the same with other classes.

Wodjee showed how to win the game by thinking outside of the box and by only going for the kills that were needed. Several of the high level fights, for instance the fight for the White Forge were non-events with both my wizard and druid. However, I needed to do at least 10 test runs with my test rogue before I was comfortable doing this fight with the TOI save. Even then I still needed luck to survive.

 

However, the rogue, who was level 12 or 13 when I fought Thaos demolished him in a way that my wizard couldn't at level 16. My wizard fought him and the henchmen head-on and barely survived, but he only took damage because I needed time to immobilize the henchmen and then buff before I took on Thaos. The rogue split the fight and just destroyed everyone he then faced individually. The rogue would not survive the fight without splitting the group, where the wizard should quite easily.

 

So, as said before, different classes have different strengths and weaknesses and require different strategies and different tactics to thrive. Part of the fun is figuring these out and then optimizing those to completely dominate your foes.

[draego]

Does Druid really do the best DPS in the game? Is it based on blowing per rest casts every fight? Just curious what the exact set-up is.

 

There is a thread around here comparing druid to rogue in melee dps or something like that. You can guess who won hehe. Don't tell  firkraag888 . Not sure where the thread is. Boeroer mentioned it in this thread but not the actual link

Edited September 14, 2017 by draego

[Boeroer]

Does Druid really do the best DPS in the game? Is it based on blowing per rest casts every fight? Just curious what the exact set-up is.

Of course the druid as a caster has a higher damage potential than the rogue - simply because in theory he could just nuke everything around him and then rest. If this is a fun approach is debateable. Here Dr <3 meant single target dps when shifted (I presume?). And that's true.

 

Once upon a time I was pretty sure that a rogue was capable of dealing more single target dps in melee than a shifted druid (I played both, but before WMI/II came out, where some things got changed).

 

I then was asked to test a very high dps rogue (we agreed on a certain build that was known to deal great dps) and compare it to a wildstrike-optimized druid in a certain encounter (Elmshore Ogres). My jaw literally dropped and I was convinced.

 

The high level druid can do more melee dps than the rogue as long as he's shifted. But of course only when he's shifted, so that's for a limited amount of time. Reasons are the high (scaling) base damage of the druid's natural weapons, his innate DR bypass without speed loss and his big wildstrike lashes, which are very powerful (lashes apply multiplicative damage bonuses which have to overcome DR - while rogue's bonuses affect weapon base damage). Cat form has superior speed, boar form has wounding. Both do equally well - cat vs. lower DR enemies, boar vs. higher DR.

 

But another important reason why his dps is higher is Avenging Storm (spell). This will add quite an amount of shock damage to every strike and also retaliatiates when you get hit(!). But in tougher encounters like bounties and such the druid can't sustain this form for the whole fight. The rogue will eventualy overtake again.

 

But yes, the single target melee damage of Spiritshift/Wildstrike is really jawdropping and the highest in the game as far as I know, especially with crits (high base damage = great for crits). Maybe the monk can reach same hights with Turning Wheel, Lightning Strikes and Blood Testament Gloves, but I never really tested if he comes near the rogue or the druid. Also because Turning Wheel/Blood Testamant  isn't a bonus you always have at max. The spike damage may be equal though (60% burning lash + 25% shocking + 20% raw lash are quite crazy). But that doesn't mean a lot... I mean single target damage here by the way, not Torment's Reach.

 

The druid has low ACC though, that's why it was suggested to buff him with a paladin/priest. A druid on his own tends to graze a lot if he doesn't use CC like Relentless Storm before shifting.

 

Edit: the discussion between me and the druid-fan (don't remember who was it) is burried somewhere deep in the forum. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

Edit: the discussion between me and the druid-fan (don't remember who was it) is burried somewhere deep in the forum.

 

Because I have nothing better to do: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84749-whats-wrong-with-druid-shapeshift/

[Boeroer]

Oh, thanks.

 

Funny to read this again. Nowadays Avanging Storm doesn't profit from Wildstrike anymore (that was a bug) but it is still a great addition to melee damage. I totally forgot that it stuns by the way. Because of this the druid's low ACC isn't much of a problem.

 

One thing that is a bit annoying: the duration of the Wildstrike Belt has the same base duration as spiritshift but it doesn't scale with INT. So if you shift and have high INT, the bonus from the belt will wear out before you shift back.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

One thing that is a bit annoying: the duration of the Wildstrike Belt has the same base duration as spiritshift but it doesn't scale with INT. So if you shift and have high INT, the bonus from the belt will wear out before you shift back.

 

Huh, I wouldn't have even guessed the belt works that way. I guess that's how it gets around the rule about not benefiting from gear.

[grausch]

The druid can also use overvwhelming wave before shifting which really boosts his initial DPS. I lured the Torn Bannermen to me individually, stunned them and then went to town. Not a single Bannerment survived long enough for the stun to wear off if it hit or crit. My druid did not have all of the wildstrike talents, but still managed to hit for 80-100 per hit while the foes were stunned.

 

Damage did drop off once the stun wore off, but by then the fight was as good as over. However, this is where wodjee's rogue would shine. His foes will be perma-stunned or perma-proned. However, as with the druid, it is very useful against single foes and not as useful against groups.

 

Both have escape options, i.e. druid with his storms or other spells and rogue with his shadowing beyond. So neither needs to die when they encounter groups, they just need to handle them differently.

[Lampros]

 

Does Druid really do the best DPS in the game? Is it based on blowing per rest casts every fight? Just curious what the exact set-up is.

 

There is a thread around here comparing druid to rogue in melee dps or something like that. You can guess who won hehe. Don't tell  firkraag888 . Not sure where the thread is. Boeroer mentioned it in this thread but not the actual link

 

 

Hmmm, I'd have to read that. But from my personal experience, I think it'd be very difficult to beat a dual wield DPS Chanter spamming Dragon Thrashed - unless the casters are spamming per rest spells and resting after every fight.

[Dr <3]

@boeroer: on top about what you explained, having near a chanter that sings the phrase for +25% fire lash is another jump in power, since it affects both druid strikes ( togheter with the wildstrike) and avenging storm. Of course for such druid is better to go for fire wildstrike + scion of flame. If you cast also champion boon for the might boost you can crit for up to ~350 dmg while shifted.

[Lampros]

 

Does Druid really do the best DPS in the game? Is it based on blowing per rest casts every fight? Just curious what the exact set-up is.

Of course the druid as a caster has a higher damage potential than the rogue - simply because in theory he could just nuke everything around him and then rest. If this is a fun approach is debateable. Here Dr <3 meant single target dps when shifted (I presume?). And that's true.

 

Once upon a time I was pretty sure that a rogue was capable of dealing more single target dps in melee than a shifted druid (I played both, but before WMI/II came out, where some things got changed).

 

I then was asked to test a very high dps rogue (we agreed on a certain build that was known to deal great dps) and compare it to a wildstrike-optimized druid in a certain encounter (Elmshore Ogres). My jaw literally dropped and I was convinced.

 

The high level druid can do more melee dps than the rogue as long as he's shifted. But of course only when he's shifted, so that's for a limited amount of time. Reasons are the high (scaling) base damage of the druid's natural weapons, his innate DR bypass without speed loss and his big wildstrike lashes, which are very powerful (lashes apply multiplicative damage bonuses which have to overcome DR - while rogue's bonuses affect weapon base damage). Cat form has superior speed, boar form has wounding. Both do equally well - cat vs. lower DR enemies, boar vs. higher DR.

 

But another important reason why his dps is higher is Avenging Storm (spell). This will add quite an amount of shock damage to every strike and also retaliatiates when you get hit(!). But in tougher encounters like bounties and such the druid can't sustain this form for the whole fight. The rogue will eventualy overtake again.

 

But yes, the single target melee damage of Spiritshift/Wildstrike is really jawdropping and the highest in the game as far as I know, especially with crits (high base damage = great for crits). Maybe the monk can reach same hights with Turning Wheel, Lightning Strikes and Blood Testament Gloves, but I never really tested if he comes near the rogue or the druid. Also because Turning Wheel/Blood Testamant  isn't a bonus you always have at max. The spike damage may be equal though (60% burning lash + 25% shocking + 20% raw lash are quite crazy). But that doesn't mean a lot... I mean single target damage here by the way, not Torment's Reach.

 

The druid has low ACC though, that's why it was suggested to buff him with a paladin/priest. A druid on his own tends to graze a lot if he doesn't use CC like Relentless Storm before shifting.

 

Edit: the discussion between me and the druid-fan (don't remember who was it) is burried somewhere deep in the forum. 

 

 

Ok, I think I got confused by his terminology. I think he meant "single target DPS" in this context.

[JerekKruger]

Ok, I think I got confused by his terminology. I think he meant "single target DPS" in this context.

 

This is a single target DPS druid build. It will, of course, simultaneously be doing AoE damage via things like Returning and Relentless Storm, but the main point was just how ridiculous its single target damage is.

[Dr <3]

Sorry was writing from the phone and was a bit imprecise. Obviusly i meant single target dps.

 

( King of aoe dps are caster for short fights and chanter for long fights

[Boeroer]

@boeroer: on top about what you explained, having near a chanter that sings the phrase for +25% fire lash is another jump in power, since it affects both druid strikes ( togheter with the wildstrike) and avenging storm. Of course for such druid is better to go for fire wildstrike + scion of flame. If you cast also champion boon for the might boost you can crit for up to ~350 dmg while shifted.

Oh yeah right. I forgot that Avenging Storm will also get the burning lash. Neat.

[Lampros]

 

@boeroer: on top about what you explained, having near a chanter that sings the phrase for +25% fire lash is another jump in power, since it affects both druid strikes ( togheter with the wildstrike) and avenging storm. Of course for such druid is better to go for fire wildstrike + scion of flame. If you cast also champion boon for the might boost you can crit for up to ~350 dmg while shifted.

Oh yeah right. I forgot that Avenging Storm will also get the burning lash. Neat.

 

 

When is Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr better than Dragon Thrashed? If you have 3 or more big weapon damage dealers? Less? More?

[JerekKruger]

When is Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr better than Dragon Thrashed? If you have 3 or more big weapon damage dealers? Less? More?

 

With enough levels of Brisk Recitation shouldn't you be able to run both without any down time on either? I have to admit I am always lazy with Chanters so I don't actually know how the linger compares with the chant times for each.

[Boeroer]

Yes, you can alternate Dragon Thr. and Mith Fyr.

 

Stacking Mith Fyr doesn't do anything, so it's good to use something else as second phrase that fits into the linger time - something like Dragon Thrashed works.

 

With 10 INT the linger time of both is 4 seconds. So at lvl 16 (=Brisk Recitation shortens the chanting time of both to 4 secs) you can alternate between them without a gap. With more INT (expands linger time) you can do it earlier than lvl 16 of course. 

 

Mith Fyr also adds a lash to damaging (non-DoT) spells! Actually you don't need weapon damage dealers for it to be good.

 

It's also good for ciphers because lashes on their weapon produce focus as well.

 

I personally like Dragon Thrashed better though. But that's just my personal taste. I never did any tests or calculations like "which one is better in certain situations" or so. I think that MaxQuest for example likes Mith Fyr a lot.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[Lampros]

 

When is Aefyllath Ues Mith Fyr better than Dragon Thrashed? If you have 3 or more big weapon damage dealers? Less? More?

 

With enough levels of Brisk Recitation shouldn't you be able to run both without any down time on either? I have to admit I am always lazy with Chanters so I don't actually know how the linger compares with the chant times for each.

 

 

I usually prefer Aefyllath or Dragon Thrashed for the main and use the defensive Phrases for the linger, since I am a survival-obsessed chicken!

 

But I guess I can do that as well.

 

 

Mith Fyr also adds a lash to damaging (non-DoT) spells! Actually you don't need weapon damage dealers for it to be good...

 

I personally like Dragon Thrashed better though. But that's just my personal taste. I never did any tests or calculations like "which one is better in certain situations" or so. I think that MaxQuest for example likes Mith Fyr a lot.

 

I did not know that! So I guess all my guys can use the lash buff.

[firkraag888]

Will a spirit shifted Druid out damage a rogue without avenging storm in melee?