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Some folks online claim that a Rogue's survivability issue will be resolved if you use dual Endurance Drain weapons. Is this the case even at the hardest difficulty? From my brief experience with Endurance Drain weapons, they are not all that effective - unlike, say, in Neverwinter Nights when dual wielding vampiric weapons would enable you to be essentially immortal. (Health is finite in this ase, unlike those games, to begin with.)

 

Anyways, I'd like to hear the more experienced folks talk about how viable this is. I am obviously not looking to solo - but trying to create a sturdy melee DPS.

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If you take Shod-in-Faith boots, a healing item like Galvino's Amulet or a belt, choose Veteran's Recovery and possibly a Second Chance armour or the Ring of Wonder with Drain Weapons I would say you have a viable Rogue for PotD. Solo? Probably not.

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You can make him ok-sturdy with Veteran's Recovery and the draining also helps as long as he's hitting with dmg mods. But his main issue is still health loss. Because his health pool is small.

 

Better than draining weapons only (which also don't work with healing bonuses) is a weapon & shield setup.

Edited by Boeroer
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Boeroer nailed it with the hp pool issue.

 

The main good thing from draining weapons, is that at least rogue will have higher % of current endurance - which is checked by quite a few enemies when they are deciding whom to attack (mainly creatures whom you could call being fighters or rangers). And thus there is hope than in certain fights such a rogue would get targeted less often. On the other hand if you have Shod-in-Faith boots in party plus some emergency potions/lay-on-hands chances are everyone has 80%+ endurance anyway, and this makes taking draining weapons kind of redundant. 

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Some folks online claim that a Rogue's survivability issue will be resolved if you use dual Endurance Drain weapons. Is this the case even at the hardest difficulty? From my brief experience with Endurance Drain weapons, they are not all that effective - unlike, say, in Neverwinter Nights when dual wielding vampiric weapons would enable you to be essentially immortal. (Health is finite in this ase, unlike those games, to begin with.)

 

Anyways, I'd like to hear the more experienced folks talk about how viable this is. I am obviously not looking to solo - but trying to create a sturdy melee DPS.

You can build a rogue like this fine with no problems what so ever about dying. Max constitution is important.

 

Every other class works on the endurance/ health system aswell remember not only rogues.

 

The draining will be magnified by the high damage you will be dishing out that only rogues are capable of

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Yes, if you push CON it's not bad at all. With low or normal CON it might work if you rest a lot.

 

As firkraag888 said draining works nicely on rogues as long as they are able to attack, because usually they deal quite some damage per hit which leads to good regeneration numbers. And besides that: Draining doesn't need INT or MIG like other healing does and also doesn't work with survival so you can focus on stealth or mechanics. So, all in all it's a good approach for a rogue with low INT and/or MIG.

 

I played a max MIG, max CON, 1 (!) INT rogue with Tidefall and RUnner's Wounding Shot as my main attack ability. He had no Veteran's Recovery because of 1 INT and also no Shod-in-Faith because of that. Still he stood in the front line and was used to operate behind enemy lines with Escape/Shadowstep. He was surprisingly sturdy after the early game was done (where high CON doesn't have that much impact but the low starting value has) and after I got Tidefall. He was a good rogue: low babysitting compared to some other rogues and great damage because of Tidefall and RUnner's WS combined with 1 INT.

 

If the rogue has high INT and MIG though I would def. recommend Veteran's Recovery and survival over draining (or better: in addition to draining). THis even works when he's disabled or running around.

 

By the way: a great sturdy rogue who needs no babysitting after the first levels is one with a bashing shield (for the strikes - best is Badgradr's Barricade), Veteran's Recovery and Weaon & Shield Style. Retaliation also works with Deep Wounds and here also Riposte makes sense.

 

The class that profits even more from draining is the barb - as long as he can hit several enemies with Carnage (because draining works with Carnage). He will leach from all enemies he hits. Barb + Tidefall is a lot of fun, also beause the wounding negates some DR-problems with Carnage (34% damage malus).

Edited by Boeroer
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I have a Dwarven Rogue with max Con. Dorgan Seabeard. A right salty little bastard. He was ..... ok.... overall, decent survivability in the early game. You take away either some of his speed or crit chances by maxing Con though. On Normal or Hard no biggie there. On PotD it shows. He just doesn't quite kill enemies fast enough. Which is his main purpose and he still seems to be targeted by all casters and ranged enemies. Lvl 8 now with party. He dual wields Ruffian weapons. Currently wielding Resolution and Misery's End. With potions of IVE and Lord's Authority ability he does survive the bigger fights.

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If you take Shod-in-Faith boots, a healing item like Galvino's Amulet or a belt, choose Veteran's Recovery and possibly a Second Chance armour or the Ring of Wonder with Drain Weapons I would say you have a viable Rogue for PotD. Solo? Probably not.

 

That's a lot of defensive talents and items. Is it possible to still do decent DPS with all that?

 

You can make him ok-sturdy with Veteran's Recovery and the draining also helps as long as he's hitting with dmg mods. But his main issue is still health loss. Because his health pool is small.

 

Better than draining weapons only (which also don't work with healing bonuses) is a weapon & shield setup.

 

Would a shield/1H Rogue still pull enough DPS to merit inclusion in a team? It's not like he brings other tools to contribute.

 

 

Boeroer nailed it with the hp pool issue.

 

The main good thing from draining weapons, is that at least rogue will have higher % of current endurance - which is checked by quite a few enemies when they are deciding whom to attack (mainly creatures whom you could call being fighters or rangers). And thus there is hope than in certain fights such a rogue would get targeted less often. On the other hand if you have Shod-in-Faith boots in party plus some emergency potions/lay-on-hands chances are everyone has 80%+ endurance anyway, and this makes taking draining weapons kind of redundant. 

 

Yes, the separation of traditional "health" into Health and Endurance was one of the more clever innovation of the game. It better explains - in real-life terms - the "knockout mechanic," and it is far better for game balance, too. As I said, I recall that you can be effectively immortal with good healing - sometimes even solo via "vampiric" enchantments.

 

 

 

By the way: a great sturdy rogue who needs no babysitting after the first levels is one with a bashing shield (for the strikes - best is Badgradr's Barricade), Veteran's Recovery and Weaon & Shield Style. Retaliation also works with Deep Wounds and here also Riposte makes sense.

 

The class that profits even more from draining is the barb - as long as he can hit several enemies with Carnage (because draining works with Carnage). He will leach from all enemies he hits. Barb + Tidefall is a lot of fun, also beause the wounding negates some DR-problems with Carnage (34% damage malus).

 

I thought Bashing was bad for DPS and a badly implemented design? I recall reading that somewhere. It certainly does not do much for my Chillfog tank.

 

Yes, the point about Barbarian is very useful for future playthrough. I guess every on-hit effect is magnified in the hands of a Barbarian. I think every melee should have a weapon AoE! ;)

 

I have a Dwarven Rogue with max Con. Dorgan Seabeard. A right salty little bastard. He was ..... ok.... overall, decent survivability in the early game. You take away either some of his speed or crit chances by maxing Con though. On Normal or Hard no biggie there. On PotD it shows. He just doesn't quite kill enemies fast enough. Which is his main purpose and he still seems to be targeted by all casters and ranged enemies. Lvl 8 now with party. He dual wields Ruffian weapons. Currently wielding Resolution and Misery's End. With potions of IVE and Lord's Authority ability he does survive the bigger fights.

 

Yup. That's my main concern if you make the Rogue too survival-oriented.

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I thought Bashing was bad for DPS and a badly implemented design? I recall reading that somewhere. It certainly does not do much for my Chillfog tank.

This is true for auto-attacks and when your shield only has bash and nothing else.

 

But when you do the typical rogue strikes (Crippling Strike and so on) you will have Full Attacks. That means your offhand strikes first (in this case bash) and applies the affliction - and the main hand follows and can already deliver a Sneak Attack and maybe even Deathblow. Same advantage as with dual wielding + strikes.

And then Badgradr's Barricade has an unlimited amount of procs of Thrust of Tattered Veils on crit. With this feature the bash becomes quite potent - also because that spell works with Deathblows. Imagine you have a stunnung main weapon and Badgradr's Barricade and do a Blinding Strike: bash does apply blind (maybe even crits and procs a normal Thrust of Tattered Veils), stunning weapon gets Sneak Attack bonus and will most likely crit as well because blinding is a strong debuff, so the target is blinded and stunned. Then again the bash follows and will most likely crit, triggering Thrust of Tatteres Veils on Deathblows. Usually this one is also a crit. Thrust of Tattered Veils with +150% damage (or even +100% if you have Merciless Hand and stuff). This will kill most enemies at once.

 

It's a great way to build a sturdy, even tanky rogue who still deals great damage and has not so much issues with health or endurance loss because his deflection is high (at least for a rogue). A dual wielding rogue might deal more dps on paper, but he has to wait until the tanks engage, he has to be babysitted and so on (except if he has regenration and/or draining - but then you have to watch health). The rogue with Badgr. Barricade can just engage as a ordinary fighter or whatnot, hacking right away and start dealing damage while the usual rogue still waits for the best flanking position to open up. So in the end I guess the overall damage done is not that much different.

 

Of course Badgradr's Barricade is not an early game item. Sadly... but for starters any bashing shield will do fine if combined with strike abilites.

Edited by Boeroer
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I thought Bashing was bad for DPS and a badly implemented design? I recall reading that somewhere. It certainly does not do much for my Chillfog tank.

This is true for auto-attacks and when your shield only has bash and nothing else.

 

But when you do the typical rogue strikes (Crippling Strike and so on) you will have Full Attacks. That means your offhand strikes first (in this case bash) and applies the affliction - and the main hand follows and can already deliver a Sneak Attack and maybe even Deathblow. Same advantage as with dual wielding + strikes.

And then Badgradr's Barricade has an unlimited amount of procs of Thrust of Tattered Veils on crit. With this feature the bash becomes quite potent - also because that spell works with Deathblows. Imagine you have a stunnung main weapon and Badgradr's Barricade and do a Blinding Strike: bash does apply blind (maybe even crits and procs a normal Thrust of Tattered Veils), stunning weapon gets Sneak Attack bonus and will most likely crit as well because blinding is a strong debuff, so the target is blinded and stunned. Then again the bash follows and will most likely crit, triggering Thrust of Tatteres Veils on Deathblows. Usually this one is also a crit. Thrust of Tattered Veils with +150% damage (or even +100% if you have Merciless Hand and stuff). This will kill most enemies at once.

 

It's a great way to build a sturdy, even tanky rogue who still deals great damage and has not so much issues with health or endurance loss because his deflection is high (at least for a rogue). A dual wielding rogue might deal more dps on paper, but he has to wait until the tanks engage, he has to be babysitted and so on (except if he has regenration and/or draining - but then you have to watch health). The rogue with Badgr. Barricade can just engage as a ordinary fighter or whatnot, hacking right away and start dealing damage while the usual rogue still waits for the best flanking position to open up. So in the end I guess the overall damage done is not that much different.

 

Of course Badgradr's Barricade is not an early game item. Sadly... but for starters any bashing shield will do fine if combined with strike abilites.

 

 

Got it. So Bashing is okay for special attacks. By the way, I don't like activations that occur only on critical hits - unless that activation has to do with survival aid! ;)

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No, it procs when you do a critical hit on the ememy - pretty common for rogues.

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No, it procs when you do a critical hit on the ememy - pretty common for rogues.

 

Oh, I misread it then. In that case, it's an amazing deal!

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To be honest there is no need to build a rogue like this.

 

Just build the traditional dual wield rogue built for Crits, sneaks and death blows.

 

If you give him the right gear he will be sturdy enough.

 

For me anyway but I've done over 1000 hours of gameplay.

Edited by firkraag888
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To be honest there is no need to build a rogue like this.

 

Just build the traditional dual wield rogue built for Crits, sneaks and death blows.

 

If you give him the right gear he will be sturdy enough.

 

For me anyway but I've done over 1000 hours of gameplay.

 

The whole point for this build for me at least is not only survival but less micro-management! ;)

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Rogues require a lot of micromanagement. In fact I have found that when I roll a rogue my whole party revolves around the rogue.

 

This is because of two reasons:

 

1. Because the rogue is so squishy you will find that your healers and buffers will spend a lot of time keeping the rogue alive. You will also probably end up giving the rogue all the best defensive magic items you find to make him more sturdy.

 

2. The second reason is that a properly buffed, built and equiped rogue will dish out damage that no other class will come any where close to. It will become incredibly easy to take out opponents with a rogue. You won't want to use their classes to kill openents because it will be easier and quicker getting the rogue to do it.

 

But the cost of this will be your casters will spend a lot of there time buffing the rogue instead of using offensive spells. Your healers will be healing the rogue instead using offensive spells. All the best magic items will also be given to the rogue instead of other party members. All your healing potions and buffing potions will go to the rogue.

 

So when you look at it that way, ithe rogue is dishing out insane damage and staying alive on the front line at the cost of probably another couple of party members spending a lot of there time keeping him alive.

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Rogues require a lot of micromanagement. In fact I have found that when I roll a rogue my whole party revolves around the rogue.

 

This is because of two reasons:

 

1. Because the rogue is so squishy you will find that your healers and buffers will spend a lot of time keeping the rogue alive. You will also probably end up giving the rogue all the best defensive magic items you find to make him more sturdy.

 

2. The second reason is that a properly buffed, built and equiped rogue will dish out damage that no other class will come any where close to. It will become incredibly easy to take out opponents with a rogue. You won't want to use their classes to kill openents because it will be easier and quicker getting the rogue to do it.

 

But the cost of this will be your casters will spend a lot of there time buffing the rogue instead of using offensive spells. Your healers will be healing the rogue instead using offensive spells. All the best magic items will also be given to the rogue instead of other party members. All your healing potions and buffing potions will go to the rogue.

 

So when you look at it that way, ithe rogue is dishing out insane damage and staying alive on the front line at the cost of probably another couple of party members spending a lot of there time keeping him alive.

 

Yes, that's the troubling trade-off. I initially tried ranged Rogue precisely to prevent micro-management, but I realized that the Rogue's DPS will be under-utilized as a pure ranged DPS, and that a Cipher or even a Chanter might bring more utility as a ranged DPS - since they can do so many other things at the same time. So I am trying to see if I can have micro-free Rogue, and hence this idea of full Drain and high avoidance/healing Rogue! ;)

 

Maybe I should just run 4 Chanters and 2 Paladins for no micro! ;)

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Or just use a Ranger with a bow and a wolf.

 

I find Rangers rain death on non boss creatures like no other. THEN you pick up Stormcalller and you are destroying whole mobs and wanting to god rid of your Druid.

 

But then I have to make sure the pet doesn't die :(

 

I think I will just run 3 Chanters or 4 Chanters. I suppose I will need a Priest for heals and buffs and a Wizard for AoE and CC.

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Pets don't die... there just beginning of the fight meat shields that only get knocked out. Just set them to Aggressive AI and ignore them once the fights start. That's what makes them awesome. They're great distractions while you rain death.

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Pets don't die... there just beginning of the fight meat shields that only get knocked out. Just set them to Aggressive AI and ignore them once the fights start. That's what makes them awesome. They're great distractions while you rain death.

 

But don't Rangers get debuffed to uselessness when pets get knocked out? That was my understanding...

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But don't Rangers get debuffed to uselessness when pets get knocked out? That was my understanding...

 

Uselessness is going a bit far: it's -10 Accuracy (bad), -2 Might (bad, but not that bad) and -2 Resolve (usually irrelevant) which goes away if the pet is brought back to consciousness. If the Ranger takes the Vengeful Grief ability then as well as those penalties, they get the following buffs for a short while (I can't remember the duration): +20% Damage (outweighs the -2 Might by far), +1.3 Move Speed (situationally useful) and +20% Attack Speed (very good unless your recovery is already zero).

 

All in all I'd say that, even without Vengeful Grief, the penalty for a pet being knocked unconscious isn't a big deal so long as you're already on top of your Accuracy buffing game. On top of that, in fights where it matters you could always resurrect the pet to remove the debuff.

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But don't Rangers get debuffed to uselessness when pets get knocked out? That was my understanding...

 

Uselessness is going a bit far: it's -10 Accuracy (bad), -2 Might (bad, but not that bad) and -2 Resolve (usually irrelevant) which goes away if the pet is brought back to consciousness. If the Ranger takes the Vengeful Grief ability then as well as those penalties, they get the following buffs for a short while (I can't remember the duration): +20% Damage (outweighs the -2 Might by far), +1.3 Move Speed (situationally useful) and +20% Attack Speed (very good unless your recovery is already zero).

 

All in all I'd say that, even without Vengeful Grief, the penalty for a pet being knocked unconscious isn't a big deal so long as you're already on top of your Accuracy buffing game. On top of that, in fights where it matters you could always resurrect the pet to remove the debuff.

 

 

Ah, ok. That's a pretty huge Accuracy debuff though. And can Rangers do decent damage without the pet - relative to other bowmen I can use instead (e.g. Chanter, Cipher, or even Rogue)? My understanding was that a significant portion of the Ranger's DPS come from the pet.

 

And which pet is the most durable and the least micro-management-intensive?

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Ah, ok. That's a pretty huge Accuracy debuff though. And can Rangers do decent damage without the pet - relative to other bowmen I can use instead (e.g. Chanter, Cipher, or even Rogue)? My understanding was that a significant portion of the Ranger's DPS come from the pet.

 

10 Accuracy is fairly big, but in the mid to late game the only fights where your pet should be dying at tougher ones, and in those you should really cast every Accuracy buff available to you (as well as Deflection debuffs on your enemies), at which point that -10, whilst still bad, becomes much less of an issue.

 

And which pet is the most durable and the least micro-management-intensive?

 

 

To be honest there isn't all that much difference between the pets when it comes to durability. Antelopes and Bears have innate abilities that make them a little tankier (+7 to all defences for the Antelope and +2 Damage Reduction for the Bear) but they'll all be roughly equivalent at tanking (pretty good off-tanks, but definitely not main tank material).

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