Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?

[firkraag888]

none of that even makes any sense.

 

@kaylon that is assuming its a wood elf then you should take the rogues racial bonus into consideration aswell, so another 10 hit to crit for the rogues as hearth orlan. Then you have to burn an talent selction to get marksmen witch the rogues doesn't have to do. Twin arrows is NEGTIVE 10 ACCURECY!!!!!!!! wow I forgot about that that is HUGE!!!!!!!!

 

then we are back to positioning the squishy pet to get the stalker link and don't forget you have to burn another talent point to get stalkers link witch I never do when I roll a ranger because it is a complete waste of a talent because the chances of your pet making it alive from one target to the next are next to none

Edited September 12, 2017 by firkraag888

[JerekKruger]

It all seems to make perfect sense to me. What are you having trouble understanding firkraag?

[Boeroer]

What you personally do and don't do with a ranger is not important if you want to discuss max dps ranger vs. max dps rogue.

 

I also don't argue that I never take Reckless Assault because it sounds funny and makes the rogue die more quickly und thus it shouldn't be part of this comparison. Because it's not expedient.

 

The rogue also needs to pick talents like Two Weapon Style and such to develop his dps. There is no point in complaining about the ranger taking more talents - every char can pick the same amount of talents as abilities.

 

ACC difference is not huge, it's only 10:

 

Distant Advantage + Marksman + Stalker's Link - Twinned Arrows = +10 ACC (stacks with every ACC buff)

Perma-stunned target: -30 deflection or the equivalent of +30 ACC

 

Reckless Assault = +20 ACC (doesn't stack with general ACC buffs)

Hit-to crit conversion of 30% (via Minor Threat and Dirty/Vicious Fighting) more than the ranger. With no misses, no grazes, 50% hits and 50% crits that's 15% more crits at maximum. This conversion doesn't crank up your crit rate by 30%.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

It's quite possible that firkraag doesn't realise that crits aren't multiplicative, given he said earlier 'real (damage) not base who cares what the hell are you on about'. Fifteen percent extra crits would be a lot better if that were the case.

[Boeroer]

Sure. That would be better.

 

Sadly crits only add a base damage bonus which in this case is 13,5 (sabre base) * 0.9 (with all the crit talents unlocked) = 12 more damage per hit. If we assume only 15% more crits via conversion (which is very generous to assume I think) that's only an increase of 13.5% base damage - equivalent of roughly 2 points of damage per hit without DR through conversion. Meh... Better bring Deep Wounds into the discussion.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

A few points that weren't mentioned: 

- the rogue can stack Galant's Focus with Reckless Attack for a total of +12acc

- the rogue has also Deep Wounds which adds (1+might bonus) dmg/s

- if we consider the pet dmg, Stunning Shots and Stalker's Link bonuses we also have to consider the time used by the pet to move from target to target, just like for the rogue

- in theory, under Defensive Mindweb, the rogue can also add more damage via Riposte

- the rogue can also stun (Sap) or further lower the defenses (with Persistent Distraction or by applying other afflictions)

- the rogue can do 2 types of damage

 

All that being said here are my results:

 

I considered a wood elf ranger with 30mig/20per using a durganized legendary Persistence (with lash) and his pet VS a hearth orlan rogue with 30mig/20per and a durganized legendary Tidefall (with lash).

 

Both are using the Gauntlets of Swiftness and potions of alacrity for nearly 0% recovery.

 

On top of the 60% dmg bonus from might and the 55% from legendary they have:

- ranger - 20% dmg from Stalker's Link, 15% dmg from Apprentice Sneak Attack, 40% dmg from flanking (resting+boots), 12% dmg from hit to crit conversion 

- rogue - 20% dmg from Reckless Attack, 15% dmg from Two Handed Style, 50% dmg from Sneak Attack, 100% dmg from Death Blows, 30% dmg from flanking (resting+boots), 30% dmg from hit to crit conversion

 

They both have 120% crit damage (durgan+merciless hand+dungeon delver).

 

The ranger has 20% hit to crit (and since 50% of the attacks are hits he will have 10% more crits overall, ie 0.1*120%=12% more dmg), the rogue has 50% hit to crit (and since 50% of the attacks are hits we will have 25% more crits overall, ie 0.25*120%=30% more dmg) .

 

The rogue deals 1.6 raw dmg/s with Deep Wounds.

 

The ranger has 116 accuracy with Stalker's Link, while the rogue has 118 with Reckless Assault and Galant's Focus. Both of them attack every 1s.

 

The wolf pet deals 16-23 base damage,has 8DR penetration (base+Vicious Companion) and a total of 212% dmg bonuses (72% level bonuses, 15% Vicious Companion, 30% Merciless Companion, 50% Predator's Sense, 15%might, 30% flanking). His accuracy at lv16 is 105. He attacks roughly every 3s.

 

The rogue will do on average every 1s: 

17*(1+.6+.55+.2+.15+.5+1+.3+.3)=78.2 slash/thrust dmg (weapon), 19.5 elemental dmg (lash), 31.3 raw dmg (wounding), 1.6 raw dmg (deep wounds) for a total of  (130.6dmg - 1.25*DR)

 

The ranger will do on average every 1s:

25*(1+.6+.55+.2+.15+.4+.12)=75.5 thrust dmg (weapon), 18.9 elemental dmg (lash), 30,2 raw dmg (wounding) for a total of (124.6 - 2.5*DR)

 

The pet will do every 3s:

19.5*(1+2.12)=60.8 thrust dmg (fangs) if the target has less than 9DR and a total of (68.8-DR) if the target has at least 9DR

that also means the pet will do on average every 1s: (20.3 dmg) if the target has less than 9DR and (22,9 - .33DR) if the target has at least 9DR

 

Both the ranger and the pet will do on average every 1s: (144.9 - 2.5*DR) dmg if the target has less than 9DR and (147.5 - 2.88*DR) if the target has at least 9DR

 

Conclusions:

- without the pet the ranger is always outdamaged by the rogue (higher dps, faces less DR, dual dmg type)

- ranger+pet outdamage the rogue if the DR<9; if DR>=9 the rogue gains again the upper hand because he faces less DR and has 2 types of damage

 

If the ranger has an accuracy advantage then he can gain the upper hand at higher DR too... And if the rogue uses 2 weapons he will be outdamaged even more easily.

[Boeroer]

Thanks a lot. Very thoroughly done.

 

We could add Driving Flight as well. In that case the ranger will outdamage the rogue all the time if there are enemies behind the initial target (20° arc). Stunning shots also works on them by the way. But of course that's not single target damage - but damage nonetheless.

 

As I said, the rogue gains most of his awesome stuff earlier and that's an advantage.

 

I only wanted to oppose the genral statement that a dw rogue will severely outdamage a ranger.

 

This comparison doesn't take into account the movement that has to be done. Even if the pet has to move as well - the ranger doesn't. I think we can assume that the ranger can place one shot while melees are running from foe to foe.

[Blades of Vanatar]

I live it when you guys argue 'best' scenarios. It brings out all of the juicy math into the argument. It always makes me restart with a character build of who I think is winning the argument. Of course I just end up restarting again when the next thread pops up, but at least the new build excitement last for a day or two. So.... thanks for disagreeing.

[Boeroer]

Hehe.

 

By the way: I just loaded up a savegame where I had two similar lvl 12 rangers. One with Persistence and one with Stormcaller.

 

The latter got Stormcaller a lot later obviously but still did 40% more damage overall (char sheet - so without wounding damage(?) and pet damage). I didn't play them that differently and they almost have the same talents and abilites. Items are also not that spectacularly different.

 

Surly Persistence does the highest single target dps with a high MIG ranger on paper, but maybe Stormcaller is not that far off and the better dps weapon overall? The damage of Relentless Storm and the -6 shock DR as well as the dual damage type seems to be as good as wounding, if not better (pet's Predator's Sense aside for now). You can have a proc chance of 19 (Twinned Arrows) up to 35% (+Driving Flight) with every shot. What do you guys think? Or how do you explain those numbers?

 

Edit: oh wait - Stormcaller is already superb while Persistence only has exceptional, oops. But still...?

Edited September 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Without the legendary enchantment and the wounding (also depending on might) you cut easily 30-40% of the Persistence damage...

Edited September 12, 2017 by Kaylon

[Boeroer]

Yes, sure. Without doubt the Persistence guy would catch up once he gets superb or legendary (is legendary possible on Persistance? not sure atm). And wounding does a lot of additional damage. But on the other hand the Persistence guy had his bow very early (no surprise here) while the Stormcaller dude got his bow a lot later.

 

Let's now move away from the superoptimized last 2% in the game for a second and look at the whole playthrough.

 

Stormcaller can be upgraded fairly quickly and easily to superb - while superb and even legendary via enchantment comes pretty late.

 

Don't you think that Stormcaller might be the better pick overall - I mean if you look at the whole picture, not just the last part of the game when everything is enchanted to the max?

 

I always thought those two bows, while quite different, where equally good. Now I looked at those numbers and I was quite surprised.

 

While Stormcaller (in the end) is slower, has lower crit damage, no lash and also lacks wounding - it has dual damage, +20% dmg, -6 DR and 20-30 base shock damage via Returning Storm every fifth to third shot.

 

Edit: I just realized that without wounding Persistence's logged damage wil be the same like that of an ordinary hunting bow (with graze-to-hit conversion). So maybe it doesn't matter at all how early he got it.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

A few points that weren't mentioned:

- the rogue can stack Galant's Focus with Reckless Attack for a total of +12acc

- the rogue has also Deep Wounds which adds (1+might bonus) dmg/s

- if we consider the pet dmg, Stunning Shots and Stalker's Link bonuses we also have to consider the time used by the pet to move from target to target, just like for the rogue

- in theory, under Defensive Mindweb, the rogue can also add more damage via Riposte

- the rogue can also stun (Sap) or further lower the defenses (with Persistent Distraction or by applying other afflictions)

- the rogue can do 2 types of damage

 

All that being said here are my results:

 

I considered a wood elf ranger with 30mig/20per using a durganized legendary Persistence (with lash) and his pet VS a hearth orlan rogue with 30mig/20per and a durganized legendary Tidefall (with lash).

 

Both are using the Gauntlets of Swiftness and potions of alacrity for nearly 0% recovery.

 

On top of the 60% dmg bonus from might and the 55% from legendary they have:

- ranger - 20% dmg from Stalker's Link, 15% dmg from Apprentice Sneak Attack, 40% dmg from flanking (resting+boots), 12% dmg from hit to crit conversion

- rogue - 20% dmg from Reckless Attack, 15% dmg from Two Handed Style, 50% dmg from Sneak Attack, 100% dmg from Death Blows, 30% dmg from flanking (resting+boots), 30% dmg from hit to crit conversion

 

They both have 120% crit damage (durgan+merciless hand+dungeon delver).

 

The ranger has 20% hit to crit (and since 50% of the attacks are hits he will have 10% more crits overall, ie 0.1*120%=12% more dmg), the rogue has 50% hit to crit (and since 50% of the attacks are hits we will have 25% more crits overall, ie 0.25*120%=30% more dmg) .

 

The rogue deals 1.6 raw dmg/s with Deep Wounds.

 

The ranger has 116 accuracy with Stalker's Link, while the rogue has 118 with Reckless Assault and Galant's Focus. Both of them attack every 1s.

 

The wolf pet deals 16-23 base damage,has 8DR penetration (base+Vicious Companion) and a total of 212% dmg bonuses (72% level bonuses, 15% Vicious Companion, 30% Merciless Companion, 50% Predator's Sense, 15%might, 30% flanking). His accuracy at lv16 is 105. He attacks roughly every 3s.

 

The rogue will do on average every 1s:

17*(1+.6+.55+.2+.15+.5+1+.3+.3)=78.2 slash/thrust dmg (weapon), 19.5 elemental dmg (lash), 31.3 raw dmg (wounding), 1.6 raw dmg (deep wounds) for a total of (130.6dmg - 1.25*DR)

 

The ranger will do on average every 1s:

25*(1+.6+.55+.2+.15+.4+.12)=75.5 thrust dmg (weapon), 18.9 elemental dmg (lash), 30,2 raw dmg (wounding) for a total of (124.6 - 2.5*DR)

 

The pet will do every 3s:

19.5*(1+2.12)=60.8 thrust dmg (fangs) if the target has less than 9DR and a total of (68.8-DR) if the target has at least 9DR

that also means the pet will do on average every 1s: (20.3 dmg) if the target has less than 9DR and (22,9 - .33DR) if the target has at least 9DR

 

Both the ranger and the pet will do on average every 1s: (144.9 - 2.5*DR) dmg if the target has less than 9DR and (147.5 - 2.88*DR) if the target has at least 9DR

 

Conclusions:

- without the pet the ranger is always outdamaged by the rogue (higher dps, faces less DR, dual dmg type)

- ranger+pet outdamage the rogue if the DR<9; if DR>=9 the rogue gains again the upper hand because he faces less DR and has 2 types of damage

 

If the ranger has an accuracy advantage then he can gain the upper hand at higher DR too... And if the rogue uses 2 weapons he will be outdamaged even more easily.

Kaylon you initial base damage for tidefall is less then 1 arrow from persistence? And there is no allowance for crits, sneaks, deaths? Edited September 12, 2017 by firkraag888

[bigwillystyle]

Pure weapon damage, Stormcaller should be pretty far behind, I think, but I'm basing that on MaxQuest's analysis.  But I think that was for a Cipher so probably included the lvl 13 attack speed increase spell.  Returning Storm is just so good.

 

I'm personally partial to the Plaguecaller that uses Twin Sting, but that's just me, and it's probably not optimized.  Love me lots of Plague of Insects.

[Lampros]

Wow, my internet connection is down for 3 days, and this thread exploded. A lot of catch up for me to do! Anyways, I am just a newb, so I defer to you veterans obviously, but I think you guys should test with the UPMod damage recorder to get a fuller - and more accurate - picture of the real-life DPS scene. Here some considerations after having run some tests that actually incorporate DoTs and Chanter Phrases:

 

1. I have never run a melee Rogue or a Ranger, but I suspect that both a dual wield Chanter spamming Dragon Thrashed or a dual wield Paladin spamming Immolation can out-damage both Rangers or melee Rogues. According to the adjusted DPS numbers recorded in the UPMod in my playthroughs, after level 13 (when the Paladin gets Immolation), both the Chanter and the Paladin comfortably did twice more DPS than either the ranged Rogue or the ranged Cipher in the group. Of course, equipment, level-up talent, play-style choices all mattered, I assume, but I do not think my idiosyncratic individual testing condition alone would explain such a monstrous disparity.

 

2. Relatedly, in addition to Dragon Thrashed and Immolation, I think my testing consistently shows that melees out-damage ranged characters, even if no big template AoE damage were involved (the same held even when I ran a dual wield Fighter). So even if the Ranger could start doing damage immediately, I suspect the ranged head-start advantage is not sufficient to close the gap with the Dragon Thrashed Chanter or the Immolation Paladin.

 

(Now, of course, the issue with a melee Rogue is that you would be far more careful with him than you would with a Paladin or even a Chanter, and I do not know how much DPS that would deprive from a real-life melee Rogue until I test it. And even then, risk management is really particular to the individual.)

 

3. This is not perfectly germane to this thread, but in several threads it was asserted by many veterans I respect that so much of the Chanter or Paladin DPS comes from template AoEs (that is, Dragon Thrashed and Immolation) that you gain only a little more extra DPS by using a dual wield or 2H set-up (as opposed to the safer 1H/shield set-up). My testing shows this is not the case. The 2H Chanter out-performed the 1H/shield Chanter so significantly even after level 9 (that is, after Dragon Thrashed) that from a pure DPS perspective, it's no contest.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention that the dual wield Immolation Paladin did catch up with the 2H pike Chanter by level 16 and kept pulling ahead. I suspect that the Chanter would have maintained his lead if he had used a similar dual wield set-up as Paladin. So weapon set-up still matters, even if your DPS comes more from template AoEs than weapon damage.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Lampros

[Boeroer]

There's no question that chars with strong offensive AoE abilites like Dragon Thrashed or Sacred Immolation will cause more dps than any single target char. It's because they hit so many foes at once. However, it can be of great use to quickly kill that one annoying enemy asap. Like the xaurip priest, the ogre druid, the adragan, the battery siren, the broodmother or whatever.

 

Usually a good mixture is the best: take out high priority targets asap with a paladin, rogue, ranger, druid, monk or fighter and use AoE stuff to quickly get rid of the rest at the same time. Actually an offensive paladin can do both at the same time from lvl 13 on.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[Blades of Vanatar]

Error

Edited September 13, 2017 by Blades of Vanatar

[Lampros]

There's no question that chars with strong offensive AoE abilites like Dragon Thrashed or Sacred Immolation will cause more dps than any single target char. It's because they hit so many foes at once. However, it can be of great use to quickly kill that one annoying enemy asap. Like the xaurip priest, the ogre druid, the adragan, the battery siren, the broodmother or whatever.

 

Usually a good mixture is the best: take out high priority targets asap with a paladin, rogue, ranger, druid, monk or fighter and use AoE stuff to quickly get rid of the rest at the same time. Actually an offensive paladin can do both at the same time from lvl 13 on.

 

Yes, I love the Bleak Walker build posted - though I used a Wayfarer version for the on-kill heals (which made Ancient Memory redundant after level 13). It's such a powerful class - and it's refreshing to have a Paladin in an RPG game do serious damage, albeit at late levels. I am going to try a "crowd control" version with Godansthunyr and We Toki dual wield set-up next and see if the Paladin can do 3 things: burst damage, long-term AoE damage, and crowd control!

[Kaylon]

 

...

Kaylon you initial base damage for tidefall is less then 1 arrow from persistence? And there is no allowance for crits, sneaks, deaths?

 

The reason the bow damage is greater is because the ranger fires 2 arrows at the same time (it's 2*12.5). Sneak attacks and death blows were counted, hit to crit was counted too. Pure criticals (not hits converted), grazes and misses are difficult to count because they depend on the enemies defenses. But if we decide on enemy's defense we can of course have an even better estimation. More criticals favor the ranger (because of his higher base damage), while less criticals favor the rogue...

[firkraag888]

@kaylon

 

I check your accuracy calculations there. I  ended up being a lot higher with the rogue. Also stalker link shouldn't be taken into consideration because you are assuming a third party (the pet) has flanked the enemy. This cannot be included in the calc and is the same as saying what if the rogue landed blinding strike then you should include that debuff. Also stalkers link doesn't add 10 accuracy it adds the flanked status to who the pet engages. So the pet would have to mobalise directly in front of the rogue and would be dead in less then 2 seconds .

 

You also haven't taken into consideration:

 

Dirty fighting/ visous and hearth orlan? that 30% hit to crit

Twin arrowns -10 accuracy?

The Reduced damage for twin arrows?

You have said higher base damage for the ranger but that is assumning both arrows hit? Each arrow is calculated separately

using 30 might as an example is not realistic and greatly favours the ranger as you have used this to buff all four of his arrows for the woundind effect for persistence as opposed tp just one swing for tidefall. A more realistic strength would be 15

You need to take the flanking damage out of your damage calcs. This absolutely should not be included.

[Boeroer]

Stalker's Link doesn't need flank and stuff - as Jerrek already said. It was changed pretty early after release.

 

Nowadays it gives you +10 ACC as soon as the pet attacks the same enemy. The wiki (where you seem to get your info) is severely outdated on some pages.

Stalker's Torc adds +20% damage to this.

 

If Stalker's Link should be taken out then Minor Threat (Hearth Orlan racial) of the rogue has also to be removed because it triggers on exactly the same conditions.

 

Twinned Arrows have no reduced damage.

 

Kaylon's calcs included everything you just said. Please read more thoroughly!

 

It's debatable if 15 MIG will result in numbers that justify the statement that the dual wielding rogue will severely outdamage a ranger.

 

We still haven't taken into account that Driving Flight will add even more damage.

Sadly, I don't know the exact dmg malus of it so I can't calculate it's damage with Kaylon's numbers.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

stalkers link needs to be removed. like I said you cant rely on "what if this happens then this will happen " kind of stuff

 

and if you want to remove the hearth orlan benefit then you shoud remove the wood elf benefit because you cant have one getting the race benefit and the other not

 

twin arrows has reduced damage on second hits

 

in kaylons calcs there are four hits there taken into consideration with twin arrows and driving flights and he has assumed that all four have landed. Each arrow hit (four of them) is subject different rolls of Acc vs def. He has also said the ranger would benefit from higher base damage for crits. No each arrow is a different calc so this is not true

 

and again why the hell was flanking included in those stats? this needs to be taken out 100%

 

and the rogues superior crit landing was not represented properly

Edited September 13, 2017 by firkraag888

[Boeroer]

Man...

 

I guess I'll let Kaylon answer this...

[firkraag888]

@ boerer

 

why you don't you just answer what you clearly got wrong?

 

you have clearly said there that driving flight doesn't have reduced damage. that is a pretty big mistake there especially when DR is taken into consideration on how that will be effected?

 

Go on answer that one

 

and as I have 100% clearly said. those calcs have assumed that all four of those arrows are calculated to hit assuming under one acc vs def roll. that is no where near the truth. There are FOUR DIFFERENT ACC VS DEF ROLLS FOR EACH ARROW!!!!!

 

some will hit some will crit SOME WILL GRAZE SOME WILL MISS!!!

Edited September 13, 2017 by firkraag888

[mosspit]

Wait, Sneak attacks is 50% and Deathblows is 100%. So 150% total?

 

I thought Sneak Attack is 50% and Deathblows adds another 50% for 100% in all.

 

Nvm, I will do a iroll20s and check myself

Edited September 13, 2017 by mosspit

[Boeroer]

No, it's +150 base dmg bonus all together. Another +50 would be too weak at level 11. Look at what other classes get at lvl 11 or 13.

 

@firkraag - I never said that Driving Flight has no reduced damage. In fact I wrote in my first post that it has only 60% damage. Please don't post false accusations.

 

Also, I still can't see where Kaylon used 4 arrows. His base damage calcs use two arrows as far as I read it. So Driving Flight's damage is not even in. But it may be that I missed this. Reading long calcs on the phone is sometimes hard.

 

Why I won't answer further in detail:

Your problem - or better: my problem with you sometimes - is that you tend to post things that are extremely generalized, massively exaggerated or wrong. That is not a problem per se, it happens to all of us sometimes (although most of us only make strong claims about two classes when they actually played them both till the end). But whatever, mistakes happen. But then, even if several other users come around with more experience in that matter, do some math, give some examples or other good arguments you can't ever admit that your initial statement was not dead on. You will start to get upset (or so it seems) and flail around verbally (although you seldomly insult people, which I appreciate). We've been there several times now and I think it is of no avail if I further answer to you at length in this matter. I have no problems commenting/helping/objecting with other topics though since I think I can seperate that.

 

Especially when I post you seem to get very annoyed - although I try (at least) to post in an objective and mature manner. Maybe my tone upsets you, I don't know. But it takes time to write these things and also to check some facts here and there and it's no fun if I do all that and then face this reactions (mainly ignorance).

 

So I really think it's way better for the whole topic when Kaylon answers your assumptions and questions. Your reactions to him are a lot more calm. That way you won't be distracted that much by irrational objection towards me.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Boeroer