Request: Non-binary player character

[Baltic]

 

It's worth noting that the historical accounts of non-binary genders tend to be either transgender people, people who did activities outside of that society's gender role or gay people. Generally not the same as an actual third gender.

 

That's not accurate at *all*.Hijras have a long and ancient tradition as neither masculine nor feminine; sometimes both, but just as often neither, and in the modern world are explicitly legally recognized as a third gender. In Native American tribes, not all tribes had strict gender roles--Navajo had four genders, feminine woman (asdzaan), masculine man (hastiin), feminine man (nádleehí) masculine woman (dilbaa). All considered quite distinct from each other. The Cree in Canada had a term, "ayahkwêw", which was specifically a third gender.

Hence the word 'tend'.

[Haran]

I'm all for it. Don't we already have genderless individuals in the game world? We already know that "everyone-is-bisexual", and we have sex-changing dragons, so having a genderless player character wouldn't be out of the ordinary for this setting. I suppose we'll have different cultures behave differently towards us, like they do depending on any other characteristics like race, class, sex and origin in PoE1.

[Messier-31]

[Juodas Varnas]

[FlintlockJazz]

I think the major question here remains "How would people know?"  Until told by the PC most characters are not going to know and will use the default terms until told otherwise, and then their reaction should be based on the particular character and culture.  Otherwise it would be like playing Witcher 3 and asking to be able to take out all references to sexism in the world, changing the world to suit own fantasies rather than adding to the world.

[Baltic]

I think the major question here remains "How would people know?"  Until told by the PC most characters are not going to know and will use the default terms until told otherwise, and then their reaction should be based on the particular character and culture.  Otherwise it would be like playing Witcher 3 and asking to be able to take out all references to sexism in the world, changing the world to suit own fantasies rather than adding to the world.

They could say there's a presumed/unshown part of the conversation in which the PC tells them.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

I think the major question here remains "How would people know?"  Until told by the PC most characters are not going to know and will use the default terms until told otherwise, and then their reaction should be based on the particular character and culture.  Otherwise it would be like playing Witcher 3 and asking to be able to take out all references to sexism in the world, changing the world to suit own fantasies rather than adding to the world.

They could say there's a presumed/unshown part of the conversation in which the PC tells them.

 

And their reaction to it?  What about someone they just met in the middle of a battle and don't have time?  What if Obsidian want to bring in a gender-fluid NPC, and have issues crop up regarding other character's responses to it, won't it then seem weird that your character isn't treated similar?

 

Actually, this isn't just a gender thing and has cropped up before, take Dragon Age Origins: Blood Mages were hated and hunted down, yet you could become a Blood Mage yourself and cast blood magic right in front of people and yet you would not get any reaction from them or it come up in conversation.  Dragon Age 2 this became even greater an issue: Hawk's sister gets done for being an non-Circle mage and there's a whole mage issue thing going on yet no one bats an eye regarding if Hawk is a mage and casts magic right in front of Templars and the like.

 

If we are just going to presume things to get what we want then why can't I just skip the battles presuming I won?  Why can't I just presume I banged Pallegina on that hay bale outside the tavern?  I mean, we can already presume that the main character is non-binary and that they just don't bother to correct people or are afraid to, right?

[Fluffle]

As the assassins of the Leaden Key confront you:

 

Assassin: "There he is! The watcher, kill him!"

Watcher: "Oh hey guys, wait a moment, you referred to me as "he/him" which I'd rather not like. Could you please refer to me as "they" and "them". Thank you, that'd be very kind. "

*Assassin scratches head and shrugs.*

Assassin: "Sure dude, why not. There is the watcher, kill them!"

Watcher: "WAIT! Just a moment! You just called me dude. I am not a dude..."

[Baltic]

Fair point. I'm not pretending it's an ideal solution and obviously they wouldn't make it apply to every character but they already presume a fair bit in conversation. As characters can bring up your background, it's presumed you've told them about it as they couldn't know that stuff by looking at you. It's also presumed that you've got to a point in a conversation where you can say 'tell me about yourself' without it being weird. The conversations with nameless npcs presume a fair bit of conversation that isn't shown as their remarks are generally not the sort of thing that would be used as a greeting.

[PangaeaACDC]

Them... sounds like a split personality

[algroth]

Them... sounds like a split personality

Them has always been a gender-neutral term for people. Though, I imagine Aloth could appreciate the 'they' (or maybe not)?

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

Fair point. I'm not pretending it's an ideal solution and obviously they wouldn't make it apply to every character but they already presume a fair bit in conversation. As characters can bring up your background, it's presumed you've told them about it as they couldn't know that stuff by looking at you. It's also presumed that you've got to a point in a conversation where you can say 'tell me about yourself' without it being weird. The conversations with nameless npcs presume a fair bit of conversation that isn't shown as their remarks are generally not the sort of thing that would be used as a greeting.

Yeah its not like you can introduce yourself and how you identify to every person you meet and probably kill.

Edited August 23, 2017 by ThatUndeadLegacy

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

 

Them... sounds like a split personality

Them has always been a gender-neutral term for people. Though, I imagine Aloth could appreciate the 'they' (or maybe not)?

 

I think Aloth would prefer Aloth and Him. 

[algroth]

It was a joke (granted, not very good).

[Fluffle]

Aloth would be one example how to explore the topic of transgenderism in alignment with the game.

Of course, yes, he is NOT transgender. But it would be interesting to see what Iselmyr thinks of being in a male body. She inhabits a body that is not hers. A feeling that maybe transgender people could relate to.

 

The other option would be, as I already showed, Pallegina. She's regarded neither man nor woman by law in the Vailian Republics.

How does make her feel? It's not the same as being transgender either, but she is not recognized for who she is, she's is not recognized as a woman,

just as the OP of this thread feels not recognized for who they are.

 

So there are possibilities to explore this broader topic.

 

To make it clear, I am pro inclusion, but not the way the OP seems to suggests. Not just as a tag-on with disregard of the game and its lore.

It should only happen in alignment with the game and its lore and it should feel natural and not forced.

 

You already have Aloth and Pallegina with who you could explore this topic. But given this whole soul theme of the game you could easily enough think of something else too.

[injurai]

Just to note, Iselmyr now being vesseled in Aloth's body does not mean she herself is transgender.

[algroth]

Aloth would be one example how to explore the topic of transgenderism in alignment with the game.

Of course, yes, he is NOT transgender. But it would be interesting to see what Iselmyr thinks of being in a male body. She inhabits a body that is not hers. A feeling that maybe transgender people could relate to.

 

The other option would be, as I already showed, Pallegina. She's regarded neither man nor woman by law in the Vailian Republics.

How does make her feel? It's not the same as being transgender either, but she is not recognized for who she is, she's is not recognized as a woman,

just as the OP of this thread feels not recognized for who they are.

 

So there are possibilities to explore this broader topic.

 

To make it clear, I am pro inclusion, but not the way the OP seems to suggests. Not just as a tag-on with disregard of the game and its lore.

It should only happen in alignment with the game and its lore and it should feel natural and not forced.

 

You already have Aloth and Pallegina with who you could explore this topic. But given this whole soul theme of the game you could easily enough think of something else too.

Yeah, same really. I feel the topic should be included only if it's going to be explored in meaningful fashion, and not out of obligation or some half-assed attempt at inclusion.

[Lord_Mord]

The option is already there: You can play a godlike. The problem is, that the game does not really respond to that choice. And of course, if it would you still would not be adressed as "them" or whatever, as that is not common in the games world. But some kind of reactivity would be appropriate, as the lore clearly states that this is a topic inside the game world. But as far as I understand that reaction would not be very positive. So basically it would be the exact opposite of what the OP wants.

[JerekKruger]

The option is already there: You can play a godlike. The problem is, that the game does not really respond to that choice. And of course, if it would you still would not be adressed as "them" or whatever, as that is not common in the games world. But some kind of reactivity would be appropriate, as the lore clearly states that this is a topic inside the game world. But as far as I understand that reaction would not be very positive. So basically it would be the exact opposite of what the OP wants.

 

We only know that godlikes in the Vailian Republics are considered sexless and genderless, we don't know how they are treated in other regions of Eora.

[algroth]

Likewise they are not 'genderless' or sexless for that matter, just infertile (and it's that infertility that makes their gender moot by the standards of the Brotherhood of the Five Suns).

Edited August 24, 2017 by algroth

[Fluffle]

Just to note, Iselmyr now being vesseled in Aloth's body does not mean she herself is transgender.

 

 

Likewise they are not 'genderless' or sexless for that matter, just infertile (and it's that infertility that makes their gender moot by the standards of the Brotherhood of the Five Suns).

 

I didn't mean to say that Aloth or Iselmyr or Pallegina were examples of being transgender. But you could use their backgrounds to explore the broader topic of "self identification".

 

With Iselmyr you do have a woman inside a man's body. She may not regard it as her own body of course, but that is exactly the point. When you feel like you are in a body that is not your own, a body that doesn't belong to you. That may be how some transgender people feel too.

 

And Pallegina has something in common with the OP in the sense that she is not recognized for who she is. The OP would like to be recognized as something else other than man or woman, and feels that they are refused that. Just as Pallegina is refused to be recognized as a woman.

The common denominator here is not being recognized for who you are.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

Likewise they are not 'genderless' or sexless for that matter, just infertile (and it's that infertility that makes their gender moot by the standards of the Brotherhood of the Five Suns).

its still definite to me that Pellegina is a girl, even if she can't have children. 

[smjjames]

 

Just to note, Iselmyr now being vesseled in Aloth's body does not mean she herself is transgender.

 

 

Likewise they are not 'genderless' or sexless for that matter, just infertile (and it's that infertility that makes their gender moot by the standards of the Brotherhood of the Five Suns).

 

I didn't mean to say that Aloth or Iselmyr or Pallegina were examples of being transgender. But you could use their backgrounds to explore the broader topic of "self identification".

 

With Iselmyr you do have a woman inside a man's body. She may not regard it as her own body of course, but that is exactly the point. When you feel like you are in a body that is not your own, a body that doesn't belong to you. That may be how some transgender people feel too.

 

And Pallegina has something in common with the OP in the sense that she is not recognized for who she is. The OP would like to be recognized as something else other than man or woman, and feels that they are refused that. Just as Pallegina is refused to be recognized as a woman.

The common denominator here is not being recognized for who you are.

 

 

I mentioned this elsewhere, we know that Iselmyr is female, but we don't know what her sexual orientation is. Also, she makes two comments (one at Kana and one at Pallegina) that look like flirts, but are vague enough to maybe just be sass. However, when she did that, was she reflecting the Iselmyr personality's sexuality independent from whatever Aloth's is, or is Iselmyr actually reflecting Aloth's own sexuality?

 

Would be interesting to see how the devs use the Aloth/Iselmyr duality.

 

 

 

 

Likewise they are not 'genderless' or sexless for that matter, just infertile (and it's that infertility that makes their gender moot by the standards of the Brotherhood of the Five Suns).

its still definite to me that Pellegina is a girl, even if she can't have children. 

 

 

Physically she is, yes (though Hiravias did go there with wondering what her genitalia would look like), but the whole 'genderless/sexless' is a Vailian legal construct. All Pallegina did was exploit the loophole provided by that to get into the Brotherhood of the Five Suns, which otherwise doesn't allow women.

Edited August 25, 2017 by smjjames

[injurai]

I mentioned this elsewhere, we know that Iselmyr is female, but we don't know what her sexual orientation is. Also, she makes two comments (one at Kana and one at Pallegina) that look like flirts, but are vague enough to maybe just be sass. However, when she did that, was she reflecting the Iselmyr personality's sexuality independent from whatever Aloth's is, or is Iselmyr actually reflecting Aloth's own sexuality?

 

Would be interesting to see how the devs use the Aloth/Iselmyr duality.

 

I remember us having that conversation. My interpretation, at least given the clues and context in the game, was that Iselmyr speaks on behalf of Aloth. Essentially impersonating him in order to spur his life forward in a way that he himself finds himself unable to do. This is because Aloth is full of apprehensions. Iselmyr comes across much like the Steward of Caed Nua in this regard. She tends to Aloth. While she is confined to his body, she mostly respects his autonomy and mostly acts out in direct objection to Aloth's propriety.

 

Given your choices on how to follow Aloth's plot, I think perhaps the supporting evidence for this can often be missed, but I think it's ultimately there.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

 

 

 

Physically she is, yes (though Hiravias did go there with wondering what her genitalia would look like), but the whole 'genderless/sexless' is a Vailian legal construct. All Pallegina did was exploit the loophole provided by that to get into the Brotherhood of the Five Suns, which otherwise doesn't allow women.

 

Really? i thought he was talking about her poop shute. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by ThatUndeadLegacy