Terror attack in Barcelona

[Hurlshort]

Hmm, maybe you are right: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/28/world/europe/mystery-about-who-will-become-a-terrorist-defies-clear-answers.html?mcubz=0

 

That still doesn't mean I agree you can paint 1.8 billion people with the same brush, however.

[HoonDing]

i blame the internet

[teknoman2]

Hmm, maybe you are right: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/28/world/europe/mystery-about-who-will-become-a-terrorist-defies-clear-answers.html?mcubz=0

 

That still doesn't mean I agree you can paint 1.8 billion people with the same brush, however.

maybe they are not all the same but they all willingly follow the same religion, knowing that it teaches violence and war. what i paint in one color is the religion itself and not the people  who can and many do choose not to follow it to the letter.

when they wrote most things in the bible back when the christian religion was established, they meant them literally because that was how things were back then, but as times changed the words remained the same but they were presented as allegories to be interpreted with the interpretation changing according to the time and place to keep the basics intact while bringing them in line with the world around them.

same thing more or less happens with all religions

when they wrote most things in the quran they too meant them literally based on the time and place it was written but unlike others, the quran was adamant that the words of the prophet are the one and only truth just as they have been written and there is no room for interpretation. so nobody bothered to change anything to bring it in line with the way the world changed and the few that tried were quickly shut down, so now we have people who are intellectually stuck in the past because a book tells them to.

as i said in the funny pics thread, blindly following an ideology of whatever nature is a recipe for disaster... and blind obedience is another of islam's teachings

[Zoraptor]

 

and what that profile may be?

because as far as i know, those who join ISIS come from all walks of life.

 

 

Yeah, they do. They also include converts from christianity and even former atheists though. In any case, a profile isn't a hard diagnostic in anything other than tv shows, it's a soft one based on probabilities and the most likely characteristics of a group or individual. For that, disaffected, drifting, purposeless 2nd gen immigrants are the most common western jihadis.

 

That also makes it rather hard to say that they are hiding in or tolerated by the muslim community at large, because the partying, drinking, womanising 20 year old who seemingly randomly goes off to join ISIS isn't a 'good' muslim (and realistically, ISIS isn't good muslims anyway since they rely on a ludicrously narrow interpretation) and on the face of it is a better candidate for apostacy than going full jihad, similarly most of those in prison aren't good muslims either, and the converts who do it certainly aren't. If one wished to be facetious, one might observe that the christian/ atheist community doesn't do a good job of turning in their former people who joined ISIS.

 

Fact is that some level of muslim extremism is tolerated outright by western countries not because of free speech- Teresa May doesn't give a run through the wheat fields about free speech- but because if they didn't Saudi Arabia would be mad and not buy their bonds or weapons or contribute surreptitiously to their re-election campaigns or bung 700 million into your bank account 'accidentally' (lol, Malaysia) and all the other soft power tricks. Until that changes you'll still have the people who do the real damage free to do so.

[Volourn]

"join ISIS isn't a 'good' muslim (and realistically, ISIS isn't good muslims anyway since they rely on a ludicrously narrow interpretation) and on the face of it is a better candidate for apostacy than going full jihad, similarly most of those in prison aren't good muslims either, and the converts who do it certainly aren't."

 

Who are you to judge who makes a real or good muslim? I mean that is one of the big issues with ISIS and other extremist muslim (or other religious sects). They decide who is a 'real' or 'good' muslim and if one doesn't mean their standards they are hunted down and punished for being a 'fake' muslim. So, basically, you are thinking the same way ISIS does. That is dangerous.

 

Don't. Don't think like ISIS.

[Zoraptor]

Who are you to tell me I'm thinking like ISIS? In order to do so you must be yourself thinking like ISIS, to know what they think like and what they would say. Quod erat demonstrandum.

 

Don't. Don't think like ISIS.

 

Though fret not Volo, there's a huge difference between called them 'bad' muslims and what they do which is decide people aren't muslim at all based on their belief of what makes 'good' muslims. So neither you nor I are really thinking much like ISIS unless we justify killing them by saying they're infidels/ apostates// nusayris/ kuffar etc etc instead of murderous nutbars but actually still muslim.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Zoraptor

[teknoman2]

the people in ISIS do not follow an interpretation of the quran, they follow it literally word by word, as was intended to be followed when the religion was established.

if Muhammad was alive today, he would probably consider any muslim who did not show support for ISIS an apostate.

 

anyway, a common problem with all discussions is that people try to interpret things from their point of view.

when we see ISIS, we see a group of extremists who kill innocent people all over the place and who are committed to violence and war using a skewed version of their faith as an excuse, while the rest of that faith's followers say "islam is the religion of peace".

when a muslim sees ISIS however, he sees a group of islamic purists who chose to promote the teachings of Muhammad and seek to bring the prophesied peace to the world by eradicating through violence all other "fake" religions.

 

 

the quran by the way is not a sort of theological treatise that teaches the tenets of islamic faith to the believers or potential converts through stories, anecdotes and allegories, but a very detailed description of Muhammad's ideals over everything, his way of life and also contains a very detailed set of laws and their respective punishment for breaking them (sharia), written with the intention of complete uniformity of the faithful with no room for any free choice or thought of any kind. there are rules about when to wake up, when to work, when to pray, how long should your beard be, how to groom it, what to eat and when, what you should like and hate, how you should treat your children, your animals, your wives, your parents, your neighbors and so on and so forth

Edited August 26, 2017 by teknoman2

[Volourn]

The fatal flaw of Islam as a religion is that its founder and main source of worship is that of a man who lieks to rape and marry little girls.  A man that lacks morals to that degree should  not be held up as a beacon to be followed. That is Islam's Original Sin much like Catholic Original Sin is following a 'god' that enjoys mass murdering children and other innocent people for giggles.

[injurai]

Is there actually accounts of rape or what we would consider statutory rape? I knew he had young wives and multiple wives. The wive part has to do with women needing to be kept by a man, and an able man would keep another wife to provide for her and keep her safe from other men. Especially if their husband died.

 

From my studies of the religion though, my problem was always that Muhammad tied the religious leader and governmental leader together, and further he spread the faith by sword and threat of disarray. People converted just to appease him, and deconverted on his death. Because his model is supposedly pure and willed by Allah, his successors had to attempt to fill his role, thus we get the various lineages of caliphs. Who all spread Islam by the sort as a top down integration of law and belief.

[Hurlshort]

With talk like this, I really don't get why there is so much tension between the Islamic and Western world. We are building strong bridges with a foundation of understanding here.

[Volourn]

So we should pretend that the Islamic founder was a rapist of little girls? And, that the Catholic god didn't mass murder little children? All because it might hurt people's feelz? I'd rather deal with the truth. Should I get butthurt if someone calls me ugly even though it is true? NO. the facts are the facts no matter how ugly.

[BruceVC]

With talk like this, I really don't get why there is so much tension between the Islamic and Western world. We are building strong bridges with a foundation of understanding here.

 

You probably put the most meaningful effort into these debates to position a reasonable and objective view of the Muslim diaspora and its integration into places like the USA and yet you often seem to be debating alone ....but I appreciate your consistency and it does matter as its the principle 

 

But there is a valid argument around uncontrolled or expected immigration from Muslim countries to places like the EU and the USA. There has to a better way of encouraging this than playing guilt trips or suggesting people are bigots when concerns are raised about integration and cultural acceptance 

 

And I am not saying this is what you suggesting but I hear this in SA when certain anti-Western commentators say things like 

 

"  The EU must just accept all immigrants as they are rich and must share resources " 

" The USA  are bigots because some of their  citizens have real concerns about domestic terrorist attacks by lone wolf Islamic homegrown extremists "  

[BruceVC]

So we should pretend that the Islamic founder was a rapist of little girls? And, that the Catholic god didn't mass murder little children? All because it might hurt people's feelz? I'd rather deal with the truth. Should I get butthurt if someone calls me ugly even though it is true? NO. the facts are the facts no matter how ugly.

volo what do you mean by " mass murder of children " ?

 

In this in the Bible?

[injurai]

Maybe he's talking about passover?

[BruceVC]

Maybe he's talking about passover?

I looked this up as Im not an expert on Old Testament history and yes I think you 100 % correct

 

He is referring to Moses and the Jews leaving Egypt and how Egyptian children were killed....but even if that is correct its got to be one of the most unreasonable and unusual criticisms of a religion I have heard? We talking about events that happened thousands of years ago ?

[HoonDing]

The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

[Volourn]

"volo what do you mean by " mass murder of children " ?

 

In this in the Bible?"

 

I stated what I meant. 'God' mass murders children (and others). he does so proudly and brags about it.  Seriously, people, read the book. I mean has nobody heard about the Flood where he mass murders the entire population except one man's family and a few select others. Not to mention all the animals he slaughetrs as well. All for giggles.

 

EVIL.

[BruceVC]

"volo what do you mean by " mass murder of children " ?

 

In this in the Bible?"

 

I stated what I meant. 'God' mass murders children (and others). he does so proudly and brags about it.  Seriously, people, read the book. I mean has nobody heard about the Flood where he mass murders the entire population except one man's family and a few select others. Not to mention all the animals he slaughetrs as well. All for giggles.

 

EVIL.

But volo what denomination are you, I thought you were agnostic like me?

[Volourn]

I'm not religious. What has that have to do with what it says in the bible which is the Catholic belief system on paper?

[HoonDing]

I thought God hurled a giant meteor to destroy the dinosaurs.

[213374U]

"volo what do you mean by " mass murder of children " ?

 

In this in the Bible?"

 

I stated what I meant. 'God' mass murders children (and others). he does so proudly and brags about it.  Seriously, people, read the book. I mean has nobody heard about the Flood where he mass murders the entire population except one man's family and a few select others. Not to mention all the animals he slaughetrs as well. All for giggles.

 

EVIL.

 

With good reason, too. We can't seem to stop disobeying His commandments: 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by 213374U

[Volourn]

Yeah those scumbag children.  They deserve death for 'breaking the commandments'. LMAO

[213374U]

Yeah those scumbag children.  They deserve death for 'breaking the commandments'. LMAO

 

Are you kidding? Kids are the worst, man. Pint-sized devils... Some of the **** they do to each other in the playground is downright nasty.

[injurai]

I have a game, let's rank what's worse:

 

x. Kids being nasty.

x. God killing kids.

x. Adults excusing God's killing of kids.

[BruceVC]

I'm not religious. What has that have to do with what it says in the bible which is the Catholic belief system on paper?

But volo to be fair then that type of criticism about the bible is very unreasonable and also unintentionally you are demonstrating a form of inconsistency around the definition of what you say is wrong...let me explain

 

If you not religious then why does it matter what any religious scriptures says about events in the past, its illogical to say " God kills children " if you dont believe in God? Also my understanding of the Old Testament is that some stories are parables and are not suppose to be taken literally?