Politics Episode 8: WWF Edition

[Ben No.3]

 

I've never seen anyone, in a wellpaying job, work efficiently. Fast maybe -

meticulous a few times... But never with efficiency.

 

Rich lavoreres are especially inefficient, but then they have to be, to actually make a decent living.

With all your talk of economic freedom, you run your business with the exact same practices the soviets ran their economy.

Guys come one

 

This thread is full of hyperbole and unfair criticism of standard corporate culture ....Bennie what do you mean by comparing a business to the Soviets ?

 

I cannot see the common link?

The Soviet Union had a centralised planned economy, so, put simply, a clique of bureaucrats decided what job everyone should do, which tasks had to be fulfilled, how much had to be produced and so on. A modern business is run much the same way, with a clique of bureaucrats deciding the exact same things, only on a smaller scale. If we can all agree that the Soviet planned economy both interfered with our economic freedoms as well as created great inefficiency, why is it so hard for us to say the same thing about firms?

[BruceVC]

 

 

I've never seen anyone, in a wellpaying job, work efficiently. Fast maybe -

meticulous a few times... But never with efficiency.

 

Rich lavoreres are especially inefficient, but then they have to be, to actually make a decent living.

With all your talk of economic freedom, you run your business with the exact same practices the soviets ran their economy.

Guys come one

 

This thread is full of hyperbole and unfair criticism of standard corporate culture ....Bennie what do you mean by comparing a business to the Soviets ?

 

I cannot see the common link?

The Soviet Union had a centralised planned economy, so, put simply, a clique of bureaucrats decided what job everyone should do, which tasks had to be fulfilled, how much had to be produced and so on. A modern business is run much the same way, with a clique of bureaucrats deciding the exact same things, only on a smaller scale. If we can all agree that the Soviet planned economy both interfered with our economic freedoms as well as created great inefficiency, why is it so hard for us to say the same thing about firms?

 

Okay I can see the misunderstanding

 

Typically most corporates have a very important objective, they have to be profitable and this objective ensures in most cases the corporate entity has to follow good governance and have rules and procedures around how staff conduct themselves especially if you have a target. By a target I mean revenue number

 

Communism was the opposite of this approach, it took away any incentive and tried to make everyone work for the common good of the state .....this is not how human beings function. The best way to motivate people is to reward those that work harder and set reasonable goals and outcomes 

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

I've never seen anyone, in a wellpaying job, work efficiently. Fast maybe -

meticulous a few times... But never with efficiency.

 

Rich lavoreres are especially inefficient, but then they have to be, to actually make a decent living.

With all your talk of economic freedom, you run your business with the exact same practices the soviets ran their economy.

Guys come one

 

This thread is full of hyperbole and unfair criticism of standard corporate culture ....Bennie what do you mean by comparing a business to the Soviets ?

 

I cannot see the common link?

The Soviet Union had a centralised planned economy, so, put simply, a clique of bureaucrats decided what job everyone should do, which tasks had to be fulfilled, how much had to be produced and so on. A modern business is run much the same way, with a clique of bureaucrats deciding the exact same things, only on a smaller scale. If we can all agree that the Soviet planned economy both interfered with our economic freedoms as well as created great inefficiency, why is it so hard for us to say the same thing about firms?

Okay I can see the misunderstanding

 

Typically most corporates have a very important objective, they have to be profitable and this objective ensures in most cases the corporate entity has to follow good governance and have rules and procedures around how staff conduct themselves especially if you have a target. By a target I mean revenue number

 

Communism was the opposite of this approach, it took away any incentive and tried to make everyone work for the common good of the state .....this is not how human beings function. The best way to motivate people is to reward those that work harder and set reasonable goals and outcomes

Yet, in the end, it's much more similar than you seem to want to admit. One management team tries to benefit everyone and the other one seeks to benefit themselves; but ultimately, you end up with this very small group of people desperately trying to control the highly complex machine that is the economy. And for worker joe, aside from wether he has free healthcare and education as well a guaranteed employment and housing or freedom of speech and expression, not a lot is different in day to day life. But at the end of the day, you do your job and you get money for it. Different amounts... the Soviets thought a coal miner should earn more than a doctor because of how hard his job is; capitalists give the doctor more because of how rare his skills are. But: Neither one nor the other system empowers the worker and his coworkers truly. And, furthermore, management will never be able to manage it. The Soviet economy collapsed because the government was incapable of managing the economy; but the same has been and always will be true for almost if not every firm. Adam Smith already said that everyone understands his own job best, everyone knows how to do that duty the most effectively. And neither a Soviet nor a modern capitalist model can fulfill this premise. In both cases, we have a hierarchy which attempts to control people, even though they can not possibly fully understand what is to be done. In a way, you could say I'm making a deeply capitalist argument, essentially im saying free the common man from unnecessary rules and regulations from above; it doesn't help and it puts him in chains. Edited July 15, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

Sharp one, take me through this....

Which scenario applies more

 

a) your firm accepts an offer. You or your manager(s) draft a plan on how and when everything will be produced. Who will do what at which point in time, you assign the workers.You set time frames and budgets. You go through multiple meetings and excessive planning to archive all of this. You then launch this plan and hope it works.

 

b) one morning, one of the salesmen comes to his assigned team of workers. He tells them what new job he brought in. The team of workers then decide how to go about this and then proceeds to do so.

 

Situation a) is a top-down planning done by a central management board in order to fulfill the need at hand. Situation b) is a non-hierarchical approach to dealing with the same problem. Both concepts are realised by existing and thriving companies, so they seem to be at least equally good.

 

Now I will grant you that the Soviet model also decides WHAT will be consumed, while the capitalist one merely decides HOW that will be produced; in a way at least. But what I am comparing is the decisions and procedures on HOW, and those seem to be, all ideologies aside, fairly similar.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Ben No.3

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I've never seen anyone, in a wellpaying job, work efficiently. Fast maybe -

meticulous a few times... But never with efficiency.

 

Rich lavoreres are especially inefficient, but then they have to be, to actually make a decent living.

With all your talk of economic freedom, you run your business with the exact same practices the soviets ran their economy.

Guys come one

 

This thread is full of hyperbole and unfair criticism of standard corporate culture ....Bennie what do you mean by comparing a business to the Soviets ?

 

I cannot see the common link?

The Soviet Union had a centralised planned economy, so, put simply, a clique of bureaucrats decided what job everyone should do, which tasks had to be fulfilled, how much had to be produced and so on. A modern business is run much the same way, with a clique of bureaucrats deciding the exact same things, only on a smaller scale. If we can all agree that the Soviet planned economy both interfered with our economic freedoms as well as created great inefficiency, why is it so hard for us to say the same thing about firms?

This is false on multiple levels. But since you are young we can forgive your lack of knowledge.

In centrally planed economy the government decided what is produced and how much was produced on the whim of decident and not on the needs of the consumers. Not only that but they also decided what and how much the consumer can buy.

Modern business operates on exact opposite. Goods are produced on the basis of what and how much the consumers need.

 

For example in Poland during communistic regime my parents had to get a special "card" that allowed them to buy a washing mashine. Then they had to sign up in the shop and wait in line for the time the government decided that x amount of washing mashines will be delivered to that shop.

 

Even in my company I don't decide what is produced. The clients decides what they needs in what speciffication, and so on. There is engineers that makes designs, supply that decide what materials are used, production that decides who and how will execute and accounting that keeps everyone to stay within the budget. If I would need to decide all those things by myself I wouldn’t have anytime for anything else.

 

So your claim is exact opposite of right.

 

Thanks for demonstrating such empathy and forgiving me 

 

There were different interpretations of USSR  Communism that was implemented in different countries 

 

Red China Communism was ideologically different on some levels  to the USSR, I have never bothered to research the different countries individual types of Communism but I appreciate you sharing your definition

 

I will need another forum member who lives in Poland to corroborate your definition so we debating historical precedent 

 

I understand your work environment is a factory production type model, I work primarily  in the financial sector and my job and responsibility is very different to yours. For example I have a monthly target and sales pipeline to be concerned about, everyday I have certain measurable developments I need to follow 

[Raithe]

Let's do a slight detour for the random political news..

 

The White House just responded to concerns it would release voters’ sensitive personal information by releasing a bunch of voters’ sensitive personal information.

 

Vox - The White House just posted the emails of critics — without censoring sensitive personal information

[Ben No.3]

 

Political cartoon of evil Trump manhandling an upset statue of liberty in a sexual manner behind the cut:

 

http://img.wennermedia.com/480-width/trump-failure-with-election-tiabbi-9c70ec25-6cc4-4eb8-bc9e-d6e85c0260b7.jpg

 

Edit by TrueNeutral. Bit too close to imagery of sexual violence for this board.

 

Comment: "Manhandling in a sexual manner" xD

Edited July 15, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

In other news, Poland just abolished freedom of the judiciary and thereby greatly threatening democracy.

For the German ones: http://m.tagesspiegel.de/politik/polen-senat-verabschiedet-gesetze-zur-justizkontrolle/20066256.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.fr%2F

 

The basic news is that two laws just passed, one allowing the parliament to decide who will be the high judges (?) and the other one allowing the minister of justice to directly appoint judges. Both the minister and the parliament are (ruled by) PiS, the right-conservative party.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

I've never seen anyone, in a wellpaying job, work efficiently. Fast maybe -

meticulous a few times... But never with efficiency.

 

Rich lavoreres are especially inefficient, but then they have to be, to actually make a decent living.

With all your talk of economic freedom, you run your business with the exact same practices the soviets ran their economy.

Guys come one

 

This thread is full of hyperbole and unfair criticism of standard corporate culture ....Bennie what do you mean by comparing a business to the Soviets ?

 

I cannot see the common link?

The Soviet Union had a centralised planned economy, so, put simply, a clique of bureaucrats decided what job everyone should do, which tasks had to be fulfilled, how much had to be produced and so on. A modern business is run much the same way, with a clique of bureaucrats deciding the exact same things, only on a smaller scale. If we can all agree that the Soviet planned economy both interfered with our economic freedoms as well as created great inefficiency, why is it so hard for us to say the same thing about firms?

This is false on multiple levels. But since you are young we can forgive your lack of knowledge.

In centrally planed economy the government decided what is produced and how much was produced on the whim of decident and not on the needs of the consumers. Not only that but they also decided what and how much the consumer can buy.

Modern business operates on exact opposite. Goods are produced on the basis of what and how much the consumers need.

 

For example in Poland during communistic regime my parents had to get a special "card" that allowed them to buy a washing mashine. Then they had to sign up in the shop and wait in line for the time the government decided that x amount of washing mashines will be delivered to that shop.

 

Even in my company I don't decide what is produced. The clients decides what they needs in what speciffication, and so on. There is engineers that makes designs, supply that decide what materials are used, production that decides who and how will execute and accounting that keeps everyone to stay within the budget. If I would need to decide all those things by myself I wouldn’t have anytime for anything else.

 

So your claim is exact opposite of right.

Thanks for demonstrating such empathy and forgiving me

 

There were different interpretations of USSR Communism that was implemented in different countries

 

Red China Communism was ideologically different on some levels to the USSR, I have never bothered to research the different countries individual types of Communism but I appreciate you sharing your definition

 

I will need another forum member who lives in Poland to corroborate your definition so we debating historical precedent

 

I understand your work environment is a factory production type model, I work primarily in the financial sector and my job and responsibility is very different to yours. For example I have a monthly target and sales pipeline to be concerned about, everyday I have certain measurable developments I need to follow

I don't care... I was answering Ben.

 

Why would you respond to my post but your intention was to answer Bens post ?

 

Yeah I know I dont always understand Internet forum protocol but I always assumed if someone responds to your post that means they talking to you....again I learn something new about the nuances of Internet communication 

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Let's do a slight detour for the random political news..

 

The White House just responded to concerns it would release voters’ sensitive personal information by releasing a bunch of voters’ sensitive personal information.

 

Vox - The White House just posted the emails of critics — without censoring sensitive personal information

 

You really cannot parody this White House... So much incompetence...

[Ben No.3]

 

In other news, Poland just abolished freedom of the judiciary and thereby greatly threatening democracy.

For the German ones: http://m.tagesspiegel.de/politik/polen-senat-verabschiedet-gesetze-zur-justizkontrolle/20066256.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.fr%2F

 

The basic news is that two laws just passed, one allowing the parliament to decide who will be the high judges (?) and the other one allowing the minister of justice to directly appoint judges. Both the minister and the parliament are (ruled by) PiS, the right-conservative party.

Left-conservative. The rest is true. There is a slight hope president will not sign this.

Left as in economics or socially?

[Ben No.3]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4652002/Native-Germans-minority-Germany.html

 

In other news, Frankfurt is now officially multicultural in the truest sense. I'm looking forward to this, should be interesting. Not that'll be much different... we always were at the verge, it was only a matter of time tbh.

[Chilloutman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4652002/Native-Germans-minority-Germany.html

 

In other news, Frankfurt is now officially multicultural in the truest sense. I'm looking forward to this, should be interesting. Not that'll be much different... we always were at the verge, it was only a matter of time tbh.

 

As long as you keep it in Germany I don't care

[Deadly_Nightshade]

 

 

Let's do a slight detour for the random political news..

 

The White House just responded to concerns it would release voters’ sensitive personal information by releasing a bunch of voters’ sensitive personal information.

 

Vox - The White House just posted the emails of critics — without censoring sensitive personal information

You really cannot parody this White House... So much incompetence...

Wait, wait what happened to "doxing is legally and morally ok" stance you all presented when I pointed out that CNN blackmail of the meme creator was wrong?

 

Good old double standard

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Considering I didn't post anything about that I think you're pulling things out of your arse!  

[Malcador]

 

Let's do a slight detour for the random political news..

 

The White House just responded to concerns it would release voters’ sensitive personal information by releasing a bunch of voters’ sensitive personal information.

 

Vox - The White House just posted the emails of critics — without censoring sensitive personal information

You really cannot parody this White House... So much incompetence...

They're just bringing the private sector experience (well at least matches financial companies' )

[Hurlshort]

 

 

Wait, wait what happened to "doxing is legally and morally ok" stance you all presented when I pointed out that CNN blackmail of the meme creator was wrong?

 

Good old double standard

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Considering I didn't post anything about that I think you're pulling things out of your arse!

 

 

We are all part of the same leftist hive mind, obviously.

 

I am pretty sure no one said "doxing is legally and morally ok" but I suppose we all hear what we want to hear.

[Ben No.3]

German high court just decided a controversial law was d'accord with the constitution. The law states, amongst other things, that within a firm, only the conditions dealt out by the majority union are applied.

 

This is a catastrophe for the union. It forces them to fight each other for members, rather than focusing on common goals.

[injurai]

There is never merely just a common goal to work towards. There are uncommon goals.

 

A goal proposed as being common doesn't make it one. A goal that is particularly common does not imply a common solution.

 

I don't know the details of that law that you speech of, but the problem you take with it not making sense to me. But perhaps you disagree with the above?

[Hurlshort]

 

And that's why I specifically noted to remember the comment most of posters here agreed on:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/93085-politics-episode-8-wwf-edition/?p=1922611

 

 

Most of the posters? 

 

[Malcador]

The world is what you yell it is

[Guard Dog]

OK then. Stop what you are arguing about and watch this:

 

https://youtu.be/w2gSm7RyI6w

 

Their last one wasn't so good. This one is great.

[Ben No.3]

OK then. Stop what you are arguing about and watch this:

 

https://youtu.be/w2gSm7RyI6w

 

Their last one wasn't so good. This one is great.

Seen it already. Surprisingly entertaining.

 

Let's all just have a debate over how to save the seven kingdoms from economic collapse xD

Edited July 16, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Guard Dog]

They did one for Star Ward and Star Trek too... they were not that good.

[smjjames]

OK then. Stop what you are arguing about and watch this:

 

https://youtu.be/w2gSm7RyI6w

 

Their last one wasn't so good. This one is great.

 

Is the bit with the map really as 'extreme word salad that makes no sense; as the youtube captions are making it out to be?

 

The youtube captions kind of goes to crap mostly after that  though :/

Edited July 17, 2017 by smjjames

[Guard Dog]

For the folks out there who are wondering what might have been, here is a pretty good take on what a Hillary Clinton administration would look like right now: http://nypost.com/2017/07/15/hillarys-white-house-would-be-no-different-from-trumps/

 

Once again I feel obligated to point out there were names other than Trump & Clinton on your ballot.