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Ben No.3

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So when talking about Muslims' views in the West, a) Sharpie's first piece of "evidence" is a poll that asked Muslims everywhere... except in the West, and b) he tops it off with a link to a ****ing NYT piece talking about some Muslim immigrant in Denmark being open to eating pork, and non-Muslim, dark-skinned Danes being beaten by racists. In between a 2005 survey from "a British Islamist hell" showing that a whopping 4 percent say violence for political or religious reasons is ok, and so on.

 

But that's headline fixation for you. Reading? Ain't nobody got time fo' dat -- if you don't like the "facts" presented that's not his problem, and he can make up more "facts" as he goes.

 

Much less amusing is the fact that he's basically in favor of bringing back Soviet-style policies with regards to Islam.

 

In that vein, there's clearly cause for concern, as Denmark's transformation into an Islamic state is well underway.

Edited by 213374U
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- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Better with criticism, still off as it is an interview of actual Polish people in goverment - and a citation of an actual current polish politicians.. So.. yeah

 

For those wondering why Sharp_one takes this approach.

 

Here's an interesting an indepth view on the rise of nationalism and religiously conservative political movements -

 
It examines the rise of religiously motivated legislation from both conservative christians and muslims and the rise of religious based political argumentation in the European Union - where the book above talks more indepth about Poland and the eastern countries in relation to Christianity and communism.
 
Interestingly the argumentation techniques of Sharp_One and many of the alt-right are pretty thoroughly detailed and examined.
 
The constant barrage of moral imperative and the identification of 'foe' defined almost solely on religious terms, with converts being the most treacherous of all and the constant attack on the other religious moral core - especially on emotionally laden subjects.. And how right-wing politicians have hijacked the religious narrative and are fueling this division.
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Fortune favors the bald.

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not to pick sides, but you often provide link and consider it fact, what sharp is doing is showing you the other side?

 

I have no problem with people believing their opinion is fact, as I have stated - I have a problem with people giving me links to very clearly biased news sites and saying that it's sufficient to prove their claim.

 

I don't posts links to the Guardian or Breibart as proof, because it most certainly isn't. I cite researchers, books written on the subject or actual papers published.

And as I said, half the links he provided elaborated on completely different points that the headline of the article, often meant to be clickbait - if I spend a few minutes actually reading his sources and find multiple errors and inconsistencies, then that puts the entire argument into doubt, no matter how valid the concern.

 

The only factual link he provided that provided data and detailed how they reached their conclusion, almost outright contradicted him... So he's even undermining his own points.

 

I mean - is that the standard we're upholding here?

 

 

As for Polish conservatives and Christian morality

"Regarding morality, I think that law depends on an axiology. There is a positivist attitude that ethics comes from law, that is is, as it were, prior ... that parliament is the root of morality. I do not share this opinion. For me the root of morality is God" - grzeskowiak

The Struggle for Constitutionalism in Poland - Chatper: Christian morality in polish law page 198. by M. Brzezinski

 

Interviews with Polish conservatives regarding morality and law.

 

I am not going to dispute that Polish conservatives are heavy on Christianity, but Poland is not whole EU


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Better with criticism, still off as it is an interview of actual Polish people in goverment - and a citation of an actual current polish politicians.. So.. yeah

 

For those wondering why Sharp_one takes this approach.

 

Here's an interesting an indepth view on the rise of nationalism and religiously conservative political movements -

Nations under God: The Geopolitics of Faith in the Twenty-First Century.

 

It examines the rise of religiously motivated legislation from both conservative christians and muslims and the rise of religious based political argumentation in the European Union - where the book above talks more indepth about Poland and the eastern countries in relation to Christianity and communism.

 

Interestingly the argumentation techniques of Sharp_One and many of the alt-right are pretty thoroughly detailed and examined.

 

The constant barrage of moral imperative and the identification of 'foe' defined almost solely on religious terms, with converts being the most treacherous of all and the constant attack on the other religious moral core - especially on emotionally laden subjects.. And how right-wing politicians have hijacked the religious narrative and are fueling this division.

I don't know man, sleeping with someone's wife is a sin, but its not in the law of a country, so its clear that not all Commandment are laws...


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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No one said they were - but the underlying ethical argumentation is more and more based on religious argumentation rather than humanist secular. Which we saw a sharp decline of in the Cold War era, so it's interesting that it is back.

 

 

 

 

Better with criticism, still off as it is an interview of actual Polish people in goverment - and a citation of an actual current polish politicians.. So.. yeah


Your quoting a book published in 1997 and claim it's interview with current government?! It's 20 years old book!
Name the politician and his position in the current polish government then.

 

I have and the data and links are there for all to see. The cited politician is still active

 

Now if you put even half of the energy into sorting and qualifying your own sources - you might actually have a chance to form a coherent argument. I look forward to seeing it.


Fortune favors the bald.

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well its mix of humanism and christian values, sometimes they are hand in hand, sometimes they are not. But saying that all laws should be based solely on humanism is pretty extreme as well, don't you think?

 

We are getting into shady parts of morality and ethics. We should focus on facts which are implemented laws.


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Your tactic is as boring as it is obvious - and it's only really hurting your own argument.

 

You want to prove that all Muslims are antidemocratic and actively trying to enforce Sharia on me? I want to see this proof, because this is something that will affect me a great deal.. So I'm very open to actual data on this subject.

 

Please enlighten me - with actual research.


Fortune favors the bald.

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well to be fair, how you want to do such research? I doubt most muslims would confess that they want to kill all Jews when are already in EU :)

 

so unless you want to gather them and get them all take lie detector test you will never know. But those studies done outside of EU should be quite reliable?

 

I think one was flying around here...


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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So your claim is unprovable, but we should take you on faith? As it is so.. obviously true?

 

I'm certainly convinced, great show.. thanks..

 

Also Sharp_one, you're ****ing hilarious - breibart, the daily mail and wikipedia? Man, you almost had me going.. Poe's Law to it's finest.


Fortune favors the bald.

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what claim?


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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The Breitbart link's source had an interesting disclaimer.

"*UPDATE (December 11, 2015): The first sentence of this article has been changed from “…significant minorities embrace supremacist notions” to read “…of those polled a significant minority embraces the supremacist notions” to eliminate any ambiguity. Despite our best efforts, numerous media outlets have serially misrepresented this sentence and used it to claim that The Center holds the survey as representative of all Muslims in the United States. The Center has been consistent with claims that the results are of those individual Muslims polled and the “significant minorities” in the first sentence is a specific reference to participants of the survey we referenced immediately prior. We at the Center have consistently stood by the results of our poll and we will continue to do so."

 

 

well to be fair, how you want to do such research? I doubt most muslims would confess that they want to kill all Jews when are already in EU :)

so unless you want to gather them and get them all take lie detector test you will never know. But those studies done outside of EU should be quite reliable?

I think one was flying around here...

 

Well, can be done via investigative means, I guess.  But lack of anything firm pointing to that, it's not a good thing to just assume they're up to something, right ?


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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I am not here to convince you guys about anything.

 

Can we agree at least on these:

 

1. laws of country should be followed if they are not un-democratic/anti-freedom

2. Dublin agreement is not followed by south states of EU

3. a lot of 'refugees' are coming from states which have large population of people who support killing heretics/gays/jews .. you name it

4. a lot of these 'refugees' is hard to identify due to lack of any reliable documents

 

Is this statement true or not?

 

if we can't agree on this this discussion is pointless from start...


I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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As for Polish conservatives and Christian morality

"Regarding morality, I think that law depends on an axiology. There is a positivist attitude that ethics comes from law, that is is, as it were, prior ... that parliament is the root of morality. I do not share this opinion. For me the root of morality is God" - grzeskowiak

The Struggle for Constitutionalism in Poland - Chatper: Christian morality in polish law page 198. by M. Brzezinski

 

Interviews with Polish conservatives regarding morality and law.

Ok, now let's get back to your original claim:

 

And in that vein, it's interesting hearing this from a Polish citizen, how do you feel about your current government citing that religious doctrine should supersede secular law? Diminishing women's rights and so on.. and does that sound familiar to you?

So let's see boys and girls:

1. Mr. Rosbjerg claims that current government claimed a.

2. Mr. Rosbjerg as proof posts a citation from a book written by US Ambassador who is not even polish but american (at least polish decendant but whatever) and has no ties to polish government whatsoever.

3. Mr. Rosbjerg questions what I link to and what I quote.

 

giphy.gif

 

Sharp_one, if you justify the crusades with Muslim invasions of Jerusalem; you also have to justify modern terrorism with western intervention in the ME. Logica vult. Are you sure you want to go there?

First of all I don't HAVE to do anything. Second invasion of Jerusalem? Tip of the iceberg. Go back to reading history books lad.
Indeed, you don't HAVE to do anything. You just SHOULD try to actually answer. The fact that I made an incomplete statement in a quickly typed response does not change the main point. If you refuse to answer to that, it's a double standard at least... "it's okay for me but not for others".

Pointing out small mistakes that don't change the nature of the claim itself as an attempt to debunk the claim is something you do often. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Edited by Ben No.3

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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Also Sharp_one, you're ****ing hilarious - breibart, the daily mail and wikipedia? Man, you almost had me going.. Poe's Law to it's finest.

Cut the crap and give me the name already or back off your false statement.
You heard him! PROVE THAT HE IS ****ING HILARIOUS OR SHUT UP!!! Edited by Ben No.3

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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That "barenakedislam" is not what I thought it would be.

Wouldn't let me, says it's a banned site, smh

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The core message of salvation in christianity is personal regret and asking forgiveness for your sins.

The core message of salvation in Islam is to kill unbelievers in the name of islam and your sins are forgiven.

 

I do need some of that regret right now because all i feel is pure unadultared hatred. I am far from the only one. 

 

Several Jewish groups of the 1910s, 20s and 30s, inspired by communism, in opposition to aggressive conservative governments of the time, annoyed with their minority treatment and the lack of progress from the world powers, committed a minor string of terrorists attacks in GB, France and Germany - bombings, stabbings, killings.. But coupled with the financial distress of the time, their actions quickly became mainstream news.

 

It created a very lucrative target for politicians of the day, who saw that the actions of radical leftwing Jews could be used to even target nationalists right wing conservatives - and their hold on the financial institutes.. As long as they simply shared religion and outwards ethnicity. It created a common enemy, from Scotland to Vienna, someone which the disenfranchised poor (always the target of both left, right, black and white terrorism) could blame for all their problems.

 

Until someone took it too far..

 

Godwin's law often prevent this comparison, but it is extremely relevant, because it shows just how powerful scapegoatism is as a political tool.

 

 

 

You should be angry and you're certainly allowed to be hateful - but take that anger out on those who are the cause of this - and that's not your neighbor. It's not even ISIS.. Your hate is wasted on the symptom and they're yet another sad symptom of Wahhabism.. And Wahhabism is funded, fueled and exported by European and American money and our dangerous reliance on the petrodollar economy. 

 

As long as we keep bombing the middle east AND fund the people in Saudia Arabia training these terrorist, then its never ever gonna end. We've had 15! years of war in that region, with ever decreasing civil rights, more police, more control and more bombs.. are we safer?

 

Do you feel safer? No? then why do you think getting more of this will make it better?

 

 

The radical jews (who still exist today but are now positions of power in Israel instead of insurgance groups), are insular and follow a non-expansive doctrine. To compare them to Sunni/Wahabbi/Salafist-Islam then is disingenuous at best, as they do not share the same ethos at all.

 

I want the troops out of the middle east (Saudi included), build a wall around it, and deploy minefields in the mediterranean. I want action, not sending the next generation of children to the slaughter for a virtue signalling concert to prove to your coward selves that you are not hating. Utterly disgusting and despicable.


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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The radical jews (who still exist today but are now positions of power in Israel instead of insurgance groups), are insular and follow a non-expansive doctrine. To compare them to Sunni/Wahabbi/Salafist-Islam then is disingenuous at best, as they do not share the same ethos at all.

 

I want the troops out of the middle east (Saudi included), build a wall around it, and deploy minefields in the mediterranean. I want action, not sending the next generation of children to the slaughter for a virtue signalling concert to prove to your coward selves that you are not hating. Utterly disgusting and despicable.

 

The comparison was the targeting of the Muslim population in Europe, as a scapegoat for the actions of other, but read it as you will.

 

I want troops of the Middle East as well, although instead of a wall (because history really proves how effective that is) we would gain a lot more with respectful trade, where we have a possibility to influence their politics by enriching their middle class - rather than only empowering their elite.

 

And that last part really shows your colors buddy, well done.. That's basically the marching tune of all fascist regimes "my actions are the only morally correct, anyone who disagrees is morally corrupt, disgusting and despicable" .. well done.

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Fortune favors the bald.

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The radical jews (who still exist today but are now positions of power in Israel instead of insurgance groups), are insular and follow a non-expansive doctrine. To compare them to Sunni/Wahabbi/Salafist-Islam then is disingenuous at best, as they do not share the same ethos at all.

 

I want the troops out of the middle east (Saudi included), build a wall around it, and deploy minefields in the mediterranean. I want action, not sending the next generation of children to the slaughter for a virtue signalling concert to prove to your coward selves that you are not hating. Utterly disgusting and despicable.

 

The comparison was the targeting of the Muslim population in Europe, as a scapegoat for the actions of other, but read it as you will.

 

I want troops of the Middle East as well, although instead of a wall (because history really proves how effective that is) we would gain a lot more with respectful trade, where we have a possibility to influence their politics by enriching their middle class - rather than only empowering their elite.

 

And that last part really shows your colors buddy, well done.. That's basically the marching tune of all fascist regimes "my actions are the only morally correct, anyone who disagrees is morally corrupt, disgusting and despicable" .. well done.

 

 

Trade will always happen in way or the other, it has been that way since man crawled out of the slime. As for the rest, what is your argument really? That self-prevelation fascism? Love ISIS' hate?


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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For asking you to prove your point? It's interesting how fragile your platform must be, when people are fascist for simply asking questions :D

 

Whereas being it for actively attacking the oppositions morals just for disagreeing.

 

You have both now insinuated that I am basically morally corrupt - see the problem?

 

For the record I complelty respect your opinion and right to have it and never have or will claim anything about your character. I don't however respect your arguments, as I find them weak and baseless.

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Fortune favors the bald.

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Victim tactics and defensive posturing when pressed for proof, par the course - your feelings are irrelevant - and you are wasting everyone's time with this line of argumentation.

 

Your links were of insufficient quality, as has been explained by several posters.

 

And as you seem to wish to derail rather than discuss the issue, I will consider this discussion over.

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Fortune favors the bald.

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Victim tactics and defensive posturing when pressed for proof, par the course - your feelings are irrelevant - and you are wasting everyone's time with this line of argumentation.

 

Your links were of insufficient quality, as has been explained by several posters.

 

And as you seem to wish to derail rather than discuss the issue, I will consider this discussion over.

I'm sorry but so far this is you, not Sharpe. You've asked fro links and he gave MANY. You've attacked him on a personal level all the while not answering his. You may not like his sources but at least he has given them. For this to end, give him the name or take your own advice.

**** or get off the pot.

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As he said, links provided weren't of good quality. The dog whining about personal accusations is pretty funny though.

 

Guess this thread isn't a total waste :lol:

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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