Will warriors be able to kill things now?

[Judicator]

Or will dudes in armor just act as MMO-style meatshields again, while the glass cannons kill off the enemies?

[Fenixp]

You should start building warriors in such a way that they can kill things already, lest the things will ignore your useless meat shields and go eat your glass cannons.

[rheingold]

Fighters actually have pretty good dps - at least if you build them correctly. They are a decent class. The real question is will rogues be able to survive now?

[JerekKruger]

Sounds like you haven't played since patch 2.0 came out. Pure tanks Fighters became pretty bad post 2.0 due to the changes to engagement AI meaning enemies will simply ignore the engagement of a tough, nonthreatening opponent. It's not pretty much required that Fighters are designed to be hybrid tabk/damage dealers if not pure damage dealers. They aren't the most damaging class around, but they do respectable single target damage with fairly little micro and even when built for pure damage they're fairly survivable.

[Judicator]

It's true, I haven't played much since 2.0.  I know defender got nerfed, but aside from that what's the difference?

[Fenixp]

I know defender got nerfed, but aside from that what's the difference?

The difference is that AI won't mindlessly attack a tank that poses no danger to it. If you build your warrior as a scared turtle with a shield in each hand, AI will just ignore engagement and go straight for your glass canon characters, rendering purely defense-oriented fighters completely useless.

[FlintlockJazz]

It's true, I haven't played much since 2.0.  I know defender got nerfed, but aside from that what's the difference?

Lots.  Too much to go into, you should play it again and find out for yourself.  Dual-wielding Eder kicks arse personally.

[Katarack21]

It's true, I haven't played much since 2.0.  I know defender got nerfed, but aside from that what's the difference?

 

They're *ALL BASTARDS*. Each and every mob, all of them, all the time. They're all a bunch of onery little bastards who ignore your front line and go *RIGHT* for your back line.

 

Basically engagement is meaningless and there is longer any such thing as a viable "tank". You know that whole "huge pile of a mess" that JSaw was complaining about Baldur's Gate being, that they instituted engagement to get rid of? Yeah, that's back because everything just ignores engagement now. They'll pause for a few seconds, then go right for your back end.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Huh, I didn't know they'd messed with engagement in a patch. Although really, I can't say I noticed much of a difference. That said, I ran a pretty effective DPS fighter when I first played Pillars. He had a greatsword, went light, used Disciplined Barrage. I also took Interrupting Blows, but in retrospect I doubt it did anything.

 

I do wonder what they'll do with engagement and similar in Deadfire. I like to think there's a way to let someone be a tank without an artificial "taunting" mechanic. Maybe it's best to just forget about it and make sure no party member is at risk of turning into a fine red mist the moment an enemy targets them.

Edited May 2, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Judicator]

Hmm, alright. You guys have convinced me.  I've been itching to try an estoc-wielding fighter since the game was released. I might as well give it a shot.

 

 

 

It's true, I haven't played much since 2.0.  I know defender got nerfed, but aside from that what's the difference?

They're *ALL BASTARDS*. Each and every mob, all of them, all the time. They're all a bunch of onery little bastards who ignore your front line and go *RIGHT* for your back line.

Basically engagement is meaningless and there is longer any such thing as a viable "tank". You know that whole "huge pile of a mess" that JSaw was complaining about Baldur's Gate being, that they instituted engagement to get rid of? Yeah, that's back because everything just ignores engagement now. They'll pause for a few seconds, then go right for your back end.

 

Eh, I can't see how BG was a mess when the AI would just mindlessly attack whoever was closest. It wasn't hard to get your fighters to hold off the melee enemies.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Judicator

[Katarack21]

Note that I'm also terrible at tactical combat, so it may just be my constant reloading coming out.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Thinking about a bit more, I guess the archetype of a person-shaped brick wall no offensive capabilities isn't something I'm going to miss. But a free-for-all where enemies are free to make a beeline for the squishies isn't particularly ideal either.

[Katarack21]

But a free-for-all where enemies are free to make a beeline for the squishies isn't particularly ideal either.

That's exactly what Cragholdt felt like to me, you know?

[rheingold]

Check out AC's Lady of pain build in the POE build forum. He has a couple of variations but by all accounts they kick ass. Eder, believe it or not makes a staggeringly good "Lady of Pain". Tanks still work though, just not the immortal I can't kill anything by myself variety. Now a tank needs to have some sort of capacity to deal damage as well. I find Chanters are just about the best tanks now. Building one defensively doesn't impact at all in its function. And they pull a serious amount of aggro due to their chants.

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

But a free-for-all where enemies are free to make a beeline for the squishies isn't particularly ideal either.

That's exactly what Cragholdt felt like to me, you know?

 

 

More or less. Although that wasn't the worst part. That would be the skeletal mages that resist everything. I ended up putting Eder in a doorway to hold them off, and dropping corrosive/raw damage clouds on their heads.

 

Check out AC's Lady of pain build in the POE build forum. He has a couple of variations but by all accounts they kick ass. Eder, believe it or not makes a staggeringly good "Lady of Pain". Tanks still work though, just not the immortal I can't kill anything by myself variety. Now a tank needs to have some sort of capacity to deal damage as well. I find Chanters are just about the best tanks now. Building one defensively doesn't impact at all in its function. And they pull a serious amount of aggro due to their chants.

 

That's more or less it, yes. Engagement as it was only worked if disengaging actually hurt. If the tank can only lightly poke you, it's not much of a threat.

Edited May 2, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Guest 4ward]

 

re. melee, if in deadfire the player can use terrain to hold off enemies and has protection spells/potions&buff spells/potions&disabling spells (and hopefully also counterspells), then melee system missing shouldn‘t be a problem. I‘d also expect the number of enemies to decrease in comparison to Pillars1 and also expect enemies to have more variation in their abilities, specifically that they can hurt the player from afar instead of needing to pass you by.

[JerekKruger]

I've been itching to try an estoc-wielding fighter since the game was released. I might as well give it a shot.

 

Take a look at AndreaColombo's Lady of Pain build(s). The specific one I linked uses estocs (specifically the Blade of the Endless Paths once you get it) and is a really excellent build (I always build my Eder as one).

 

Also I'd say that Katarack21's description of the current state of affairs is a little exaggerated. I don't think anyone knows the exact algorithm, but the willingness for enemies to break engagement seems to be dependent on the defensiveness and damage capability of their available targets (plus perhaps distance from target). If you run the standard MMO setup of a super tough tank, who hits like a wet noodle, and a bunch of glass cannons the AI will definitely walk away from your tank to kill your damage dealers; but if you run hybrid tank/damage dealers and don't dump every non-tank's Resolve to 3 (throw around some small shields too, especially in the early game) then tanks still work reasonably well. Of course some enemies like teleporting wraiths/shades/spectres/I can't remember their name will still use their abilities to get to your squishier characters, but then they did this pre-2.0 as well.

[Guest]

High damage fighter were always available. Unfortunately, if you compare them to classes that were designed to do a lot of damage (i.e. Rogues), then you will always be disappointed.

[MortyTheGobbo]

I plan to run a multiclass Fighter/Rogue in Deadfire. I was waffling between the two classes when I planned my lightly-armoured greatsword character in PoE 1, and now I don't have to.

[hilfazer]

hybrid tank/damage dealers

There's no such thing. If you combine tank and damage dealer (BTW thank You for saying 'damage dealer' and not 'DPS') you are back to regular everyday normal standard warrior.

[Leferd]

Yep.

 

[AndreaColombo]

There's no such thing. If you combine tank and damage dealer (BTW thank You for saying 'damage dealer' and not 'DPS') you are back to regular everyday normal standard warrior.

I think he meant, "if you don't build all your damage-dealers as MMO-style glass cannons", something that in PoE is entirely possible.

[MaxQuest]

Will warriors be able to kill things now?

It's not that the fighters can't kill things. They can.

It's the opportunity cost and being outshined by another class that can do their stuff maybe even a little bit worse, but while also doing something extra.

For example:

- a tank fighter can be substituted by a tank paladin. Which will also provide extra buffs and healing.

- while a dps fighter can be substituted by barbarian, monk, dragon-thrashed chanter and depending on composition: melee cipher. And unless fighter spams scrolls, the substitutions will actually be more optimal as they either have higher burst, or can provide extra healing via shod-in-faith boots (coupled with high hp/low def), can buff or cc.

 

Imho, a fighter needs something that would also benefit his team. Some kind of rally aoe buff, inspire resolve, or ability to rush to an enemy that has engaged one of your squishies and glance 1-2 of their attacks. 

[MortyTheGobbo]

Fighters are in an awkward spot due to the classes' D&D legacy, I think. They had to be the "generic" fighting class that didn't have anything too special about it, except for "reliability". Hopefully Deadfire will change that. I don't think making them the designated tank class is the way to go, but then again, there's always multiclassing. Or just playing a rogue. In Pillars they have very little of the "thief" baggage that usually plagues the class.

 

I feel like control effects are a fighter niche that could set them apart. Knockdowns, pushing, pulling, redirecting attacks to themselves, etc. We'll see if Deadfire goes that route.

[smjjames]

Yeah, in PoE, rogues are generally the 'dirty fighters', sort of the close quarters urban cousin of fighters.

Edited May 3, 2017 by smjjames