US attacks on Syria

[Wrath of Dagon]

Not without a doubt, but if it turns out we've been had Mattis, Tillerson and our entire foreign policy will lose face. I doubt they'll let that happen.

[Ben No.3]

Let's be honest, this is exactly what everyone feared: Trump reacting impulsively with military force.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Hildegard]

Not without a doubt, but if it turns out we've been had Mattis, Tillerson and our entire foreign policy will lose face. I doubt they'll let that happen.

US government lost its face in front of the entire world already 14 years ago. 

 

Faces of Mattis, Tillerson or any other government official don't carry any wight. Maybe only in the eyes of the US public.

 

This attack last night was in plan far before. US government doesn't have the means to properly undergo investigation who used chemical weapons in such a short time. Trump just showed his muscles and launched an attack on another country on his own. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Hildegard

[Rostere]

I'm just going by what our government said. Russians in their comments also seemed to admit that it was Assad. It's also reported the weapon was delivered by a SU-22, which had to be Assad. May be it's all a giant conspiracy, but I doubt it.

 

"It's reported" = al-Nusra said.

 

Even if it is true that a SU-22 was around at the time of the alleged attack, when would you allege that a CW attack has taken place if you was a terrorist wanting to bait USA into entering the conflict? Obviously at the time your enemy is attacking you. Al-Nusra territory is under constant aerial attack, so they would hardly have to wait.

 

It doesn't need to be a "giant conspiracy". All you need is a few al-Nusra guys (who will have no trouble lying for their perverted cause), give a few of them white helmets, and then take a few pictures with dead people (there will be a lot of dead people around in a warzone anyway). If you are ambitious, you use actual gas.

 

Then, all media outlets who are sympathetic to your cause (US intervention in Syria) will parrot your talking points endlessly. There's no need for them to know what is true and what is not, since they will regurgitate the propaganda which fits their agenda with zero reflection anyway.

[Wrath of Dagon]

But is US intelligence that easily fooled? The truth will come out eventually. Plus like I said the Russians also criticized Assad.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

[Meshugger]

Well, one thing's for sure. The Saudis, the Israelis and the neocons are giddy as schoolchildren recieving candy. That's never a good thing. 

 

This whole thing smells rotten.

[Hildegard]

Rebel groups in Syria launched chemical attacks on countless occasions according to Assad's regime. Assad is saying that - logic is it must be lies. Al-Nusra/other rebel groups say Assad is using chemical weapons - logic is it must be true. The only logic here is we are going to trust those claims that suit our interests.

 

ISIS admitted using chemical weapons for 52 times in Syria and Iraq. I'm just wondering how there wasn't any hype about them using chemical weapons to kill civilians among other. I guess that's a normal thing. 

[pmp10]

Let's be honest, this is exactly what everyone feared: Trump reacting impulsively with military force.

That was as rational reaction as you can expect from US in this context.

And it has very little to do with situation in Syria.

It's just a warning to stop making them look ridiculous.

 

Give the administration I'll gladly take a good thing done for wrong reasons.

[HoonDing]

Claims are that only 40% (23) of the tomahawks reached the airbase, and from the (lack of) damage to Shayrat that's pretty credible. There's literally no apparent damage to the runway (!) and many of the armoured hangars are intact as well. Exactly why so few arrived is a bit of an open question since Russia said they launched no counter missiles, so some sort of ECM seems likely (GPS spoofing, maybe). There's some limited drone footage of the base post strikes, though it's potato quality.

 

Unsurprisingly there's a lot of talk of Syria getting S3/400 SAM systems now, and the air coordination agreement between the Russians and US is suspended.

[Gorgon]

I was wondering about that UN show. It was clearly meant to embarrass the Syrian envoy who was reading texts and ignoring the whole thing. There is tradition for hyperboly when adressing the UN though. The US envoy came off as sortoff a school teacher giving a student a severe dressing down. From that point of view , posturing that is, she came out ok.

[Volourn]

" Trump is easier to deal with than Hillary "

 

Is he though? Hillary has decades of  world wide politics so it is clear how she is gonna react.

 

Trump not so much. I mean people are claiming that Trump is a 'Russia stooge and plant' yet him bombing Syria means he is opposing Russia. Not so 'easier to deal with'.

 

That said,  the US bombing here is for the most part just a sillogical as Syria doing their attack. It accomplishes ****.

[Rostere]

But is US intelligence that easily fooled? The truth will come out eventually.

 

Yeah, just like US intelligence wasn't fooled that Osama bin Laden lived in a Bond villain-esque cave complex in the Tora Bora mountains.

 

Just like US intelligence wasn't fooled Iraq had a WMD program.

 

Do you remember anyone being held accountable for these lies? The US has a long-standing tradition of fabricating "intelligence" on every important occasion of note. The longer this goes on with nobody being punished, the worse it will get. FFS, the standard "evidence" is currently held to is literally "videos by al-Qaida supporters", which is currently accepted without even the slightest hint of critical thinking! What the **** has the world come to?

 

Anyways, what the "US intelligence" knows or not knows is the wrong question, because it doesn't matter if you're not the president. What we are interested in is what the government is trying to hype up. Then they will lie as much as they can, regardless what the intelligence says. They will not try to be impartial. And to their aid they will use the most banal devices, which insults the cognitive ability of even the most casual observer.

 

 

Really? What do two pictures taken by al-Qaida's propaganda department have to do in a reasoned and impartial UN debate? Or might this be a dumb PR device? Is there anyone in the entire world who does not immediately associate this with Colin Powell, who has become the very embodiment of the political lie? It is clear that what is happening in the above picture has nothing to do with investigating an alleged crime, and everything to do with selling a narrative to the public.

[Hildegard]

Al-Nusra. Frikin jihadi Sharia law head decapitating scum of the earth qualify as truth holders and credible witnesses. I guess Taliban did as well while fighting the Soviets back in the 80s so why can't Al-Nusra today. 

 

 

Also, as I already mentioned, the US threatened to undergo further attacks on Assad's military if any more chemical attacks happen. This is an open invitation for all those radical Islamist groups in Syria that have access to some sort of chemical weapons to go out there and use it on civilian targets as it will automatically result in inflicting damage to their opponent. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Hildegard

[Zoraptor]

I'm just going by what our government said. Russians in their comments also seemed to admit that it was Assad. It's also reported the weapon was delivered by a SU-22, which had to be Assad. May be it's all a giant conspiracy, but I doubt it.

 

Russians said that a weapons depot was hit, and that it contained CW. While there are issues with that explanation it would explain there being 2 CW agents present despite all sources saying only one potential CW bomb was dropped (you can't just bung sarin and chlorine in together, they're both reactive and have differing physical properties, it's actively counterproductive). There's also no pictures whatsoever of the delivery device. At this point you, and the US, are basically taking the word of Hayat Tahrir al Sham- Al Qaeda- as to the facts. Rebels have even used sarin before, in Khan al Assal (as mentioned in the politics thread the US explanation for that is, near literally, 'they gassed themselves for the lulz').

 

 

Claims are that only 40% (23) of the tomahawks reached the airbase, and from the (lack of) damage to Shayrat that's pretty credible. There's literally no apparent damage to the runway (!) and many of the armoured hangars are intact as well. Exactly why so few arrived is a bit of an open question since Russia said they launched no counter missiles, so some sort of ECM seems likely (GPS spoofing, maybe). There's some limited drone footage of the base post strikes, though it's potato quality.

 

Unsurprisingly there's a lot of talk of Syria getting S3/400 SAM systems now, and the air coordination agreement between the Russians and US is suspended.

 

You realise that even if one accepts the claim that only 23 targets were hit, common targeting procedure is to double (or even triple or quadruple, depending on target priority) up on munitions against one target for redundancy's sake (in the event defenders are attempting to intercept the missiles, or in case of weapon failure)? Or that many cruise missiles, particularly when used against hardened targets, detonate post-penetration so showing the exterior of a hangar after the strike may be misleading?

 

 

23 missiles, not 23 targets. Best evidence so far is that 16 targets were hit, which fits 23 missiles pretty well. There's also plenty of ground level photos available showing undamaged planes sitting in undamaged armoured hangars, from ground level, and the airfield was/ is back in use with planes taking off/ landing scant hours later. Don't think there's any credible argument for the strikes being effective if they've resume use the morning of the bombing. The only real argument is whether they were deliberately ineffective or not.

[Malcador]

Would be funny if this all started from just random chance rather than a scheme.

[Hildegard]

It started as a scheme for yet another regime change, this time in Syria which proved to be more complicated than anticipated. Once Assad is gone they will isolate and completely clean out Lebanon from Hezzbolah. Then it will come down to Iran and they will be attacked. Then the new puppet regime in Damascus will probably fail and we'll have a new conflict. And around around they go playing Risk with countries, peoples lives and faiths. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Hildegard

[Gromnir]

 

 

And, you know, Russian MoD? They also said at first a Su-25 shot down an 777 flying at 33,000 ft with an AA-8 Aphid with a 3kg warhead.

 

highlight failures o' western media and intelligence, and offer an alternative narrative is part o' the russian propaganda playbook.  russian spin don't need be right, just need be different. russians love a good conspiracy theory in part 'cause they know they is being lied to by the State.  russians expect to be lied to.  when one can't trust any official source, then you is more likely to believe the conspiracy, and the multitude o' (im)plausible conspiracies is far less dangerous to russia than is the truth.

 

is sad, but russia and other nations has successful exported their lunatic fringe. heck, one need not look any further than this thread to see some hardcore denialism, eh? not a surprise to see such nonsense take hold in europe where populations is far more polarized, but the speed with which the tinfoil hat brigades has grown in the US shocks even Gromnir.  'course given how kellyanne conway advocated the notion o' "alternative facts," and our President's tendency to indulge in fabulism, am s'posing one can at least identify a contributory domestic source for the rise o' reflexive denialism and conspiracy theories.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hildegard]

Yeah, and the statements made by western media and governments/intelligence is truth by default. Never ever have they mislead, lied or deceived anyone. Any contradiction towards that end equals to tinfoil rhetoric. But you're right about one thing, and that's denialism. Just not in any sense you're trying to prove.    

[Katphood]

Brace yourselves because Russia is sending a destroyer to the Mediterranean Sea. 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/07/russian-warship-steams-toward-us-destroyers-that-launched-syria-airstrikes.html

[Gorgon]

 

But is US intelligence that easily fooled? The truth will come out eventually.

 

Yeah, just like US intelligence wasn't fooled that Osama bin Laden lived in a Bond villain-esque cave complex in the Tora Bora mountains.

 

Just like US intelligence wasn't fooled Iraq had a WMD program.

 

Do you remember anyone being held accountable for these lies? The US has a long-standing tradition of fabricating "intelligence" on every important occasion of note. The longer this goes on with nobody being punished, the worse it will get. FFS, the standard "evidence" is currently held to is literally "videos by al-Qaida supporters", which is currently accepted without even the slightest hint of critical thinking! What the **** has the world come to?

 

Anyways, what the "US intelligence" knows or not knows is the wrong question, because it doesn't matter if you're not the president. What we are interested in is what the government is trying to hype up. Then they will lie as much as they can, regardless what the intelligence says. They will not try to be impartial. And to their aid they will use the most banal devices, which insults the cognitive ability of even the most casual observer.

 

 

Really? What do two pictures taken by al-Qaida's propaganda department have to do in a reasoned and impartial UN debate? Or might this be a dumb PR device? Is there anyone in the entire world who does not immediately associate this with Colin Powell, who has become the very embodiment of the political lie? It is clear that what is happening in the above picture has nothing to do with investigating an alleged crime, and everything to do with selling a narrative to the public.

 

It's for the American people. Grandstanding is par for the course. Tradition is tradition after all. It's a performance  the real diplomacy is through other channels.

[HoonDing]

But what about the children

[Gorgon]

What about them. This really happened and it's not hard to convince anyone that it shouldn't have. The missile strikes are symbolic though. 'Proportional response' you know, bomber diplomacy, it's what the US is famous for. Minimal risk and... some bombs or missiles which may or may not influence events.

[Zoraptor]

Brace yourselves because Russia is sending a destroyer to the Mediterranean Sea. 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/07/russian-warship-steams-toward-us-destroyers-that-launched-syria-airstrikes.html

 

That ship was already on its way, it was at/ near the Bosporus when the attack happened. If the Pyotr Veliky goes back that would be significant, as it's a meat wagon and was far more significant than the Kuznetsov (carrier) being there, this is just normal schedule most likely.

 

lol Su25 MH17 r00fles

 

 

Bloody useless experts everywhere. The Russian story was bollocks, but the Su25 'debunking' is as bad a bit of false information as anything they did.

 

(Why? Radar designations are preliminary since you cannot identify a target by radar alone, obviously if you could then MH17 wouldn't have itself been shot down as it would not have been mistaken for an Il76. Nor would IranAir655 have been mistaken for an F14. To put it in perspective, a Su25 is very similar size to Su27 and Mig29 which could easily shoot an airliner down, an airbus is multiple orders of magnitude larger than an F14 yet Scott Lustig still identified said Airbus as an F14 for which, lest we forget, he literally got a medal. The Su25 designation could have easily as been for said Su27 or Mig29 as an actual Su25, and again, either of those is more than capable of shooting down any airplane. It didn't happen, but their reasoning in debunking it is itself a load of old tosh)

Edited April 8, 2017 by Zoraptor

[Agiel]

 

(Why? Radar designations are preliminary since you cannot identify a target by radar alone

 

Uh... with the processing power that availed itself in the late '80s, yes you could:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_MASINT#Non-Cooperative_Target_Recognition

 

 

 

http://www.theiet.org/resources/books/rsna/artr.cfm?origin=/books-radarauto

 

There were even reports of particularly adept operators of older systems like the SA-5 Gammon who were able to identify aircraft by staring at the raw oscilloscopic radar returns.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Agiel