Can PoE grow as a franchise the way the Witcher did?

[Ninjamestari]

 

 

 

His physical prowess aside, he was after all created for that particular purpose, Geralt is an extremely flawed character.

So....he was created to be a whiny bitch, and somehow that makes it...better?

 

 

 

Nope he's a successful bitch which bound to get **** for being successful.

 

My inner adolescent power fantasizing-self wants to create my own younger Witcher who could get with Ciri but I'm stuck with this ****ing old dude who just wants his daughter to be safe and leave this life before him, he wants a steady job instead of city-hopping and spend the rest of his days(rather long years) with Yennefer(preferably). I'm sorry but I can't see any adolescent fantasy in this, if anything this is a retirement fantasy.

 

 

You're wrong, that fantasy you have with Ciri is the retirement fantasy of an old man wishing to be younger, lamenting about a wasted youth.

 

 

Big, strong, powerful manly man kills monsters, bangs four hot women with no consequences (despite supposedly Yennifer being the love of his life), shows almost no emotion, and is generally treated as the manliest and most attractive person ever. His main love interest is violent and irrational to the pointvof abusive, and this is treated as normal for women.

 

Last game hecwas brainwashed and raped; this is treated as cheating because she was hot.

 

Please. You couldn't make a more adolescent power fantasy if you set out to. Doesn't make it bad, but let's keep it real.

Wow, i guess people see what they want to see. 

 

 

Witcher is the text-book definition of adolescent power fantasy, so I think the 'people don't see what they don't want to see' is more prevalent in this context. To quote Mr. Katarack, let's keep it real.

[firkraag888]

What is witcher 3 like? I started playing it then gave up. Didn't catch my attention like pillars did for some reason

[Hertzila]

 

 Witcher is the text-book definition of adolescent power fantasy, so I think the 'people don't see what they don't want to see' is more prevalent in this context. To quote Mr. Katarack, let's keep it real.

 

I'm not denying that Witcher has an aspect of adolescent power fantasy in it, but I think reducing it to just adolescent power fantasy is ill-informed. Almost every cool and badass character can be reduced to just adolescent power fantasy if you strip enough aspects from them and miss / remove enough content from them. This goes double for video game characters, since gameplay being enjoyable tends to drive the design side and being extremely successful in combat tends to be cool and badass.

 

There's plenty else in The Witcher than just Geralt being a successful witcher. If you don't like it, fair enough.

[RoboticWater]

What is witcher 3 like? I started playing it then gave up. Didn't catch my attention like pillars did for some reason

I'm surprised it didn't. The game has a much stronger opening than Pillars in my opinion. The opening area doesn't hold up against the later parts of the game (as is the case with most RPG, unfortunately), but it's still got enough of the game's unique tone to pull you through. I'd pick it back up again if you're looking for a strong narrative. The portrayal of its fantasy world is fairly original and the adventures you go on, big or small, are well told throughout.

 

Quite frankly, I thought it was a game that would have been better off not being an RPG though. A fresh, stylish narrative and decent action game are betrayed by boring leveling, pointless loot, and other needless progression systems. It's a game about an old, professional Witcher, yet you're constantly told that "you're not a high enough level to handle this quest," and the meager +3-5% differences between loot and skill levels just aren't enough to justify the grind.

 

It's very much like a standard AAA game: lots of flair, but mechanics that don't inspire. Luckily, the story is good enough that ignoring poor game mechanics is worth it.

 

I don't see much reason discussing it on the Pillars forums though. There's really nothing these games could learn from each other. I might suggest Pillars become less didactic like The Witcher, but that has less to do with The Witcher specifically and more with cinematic games in general. The constraint of VO, animations, and cinematics tends to force writers into crafting more concise scripts. I generally prefer that to the word soup that CRPG can often become.

[Quillon]

You're wrong, that fantasy you have with Ciri is the retirement fantasy of an old man wishing to be younger, lamenting about a wasted youth.

What?... how?

 

Witcher is the text-book definition of adolescent power fantasy, so I think the 'people don't see what they don't want to see' is more prevalent in this context. To quote Mr. Katarack, let's keep it real.

Anything power fantasy related is to hook more people to the games/books. Medieval super-hero! F... YEAA! etc. The game/book has to be marketable. Once they got you to play their game, they hit you with all sorts of topics & dilemmas. Its your loss if you can't see past the increased libido of a Witcher.

 

These comments remind me of people who are calling HBO series, porn, just cos there is 1 mins(usually less) of sex/nudity in an hour.

[Katarack21]

 

 Its your loss if you can't see past the increased libido of a Witcher.

You mean "through the libido of an adolescent male". That's what it is. The witcher games, and novels, are lowbrow adolescent fantasy novels. It's like Devil May Cry, but if you got to fly away with Trish on a pegasus and bang her on a hill top.

[Ninjamestari]

Basic psychology Quillon, basic psychology. Everyone likes to think they're above it, but no one really is. If you want to convince me that you're not having old-guy fantasies where you're young and virile and attractive again, then I'd advice against pointing out how your attention is drawn specifically into the 'increased libido of a Witcher'

 

And yeah, being an adolescent power fantasy sells a lot of copies, but that doesn't make it any less an adolescent power fantasy. I find it funny how some people always try to twist a discussion about generalities and overarching themes into details, while the same people usually also try to twist any discussion about details into generalities and overarching themes.

[Archaven]

I.sincerely.hope.not.for.obvious.reasons

[Katarack21]

For what it's worth, I quite like The Witcher 3. But it's a *very* different game than PoE, with a completely different target audience.

[bonarbill]

And yeah, being an adolescent power fantasy sells a lot of copies, but that doesn't make it any less an adolescent power fantasy. I find it funny how some people always try to twist a discussion about generalities and overarching themes into details, while the same people usually also try to twist any discussion about details into generalities and overarching themes.

 

You mean like what yo're doing.  You started this whole crappy discussion in the first place troll.

[Duskshift]

One point also to note is that in terms of tone and complexity the witcher series has had a few changes of streamlining (from TW1 to TW2 and also from TW2 to TW3) that made the overall success possible.

 

The series built a cult following with TW1 and transitioned to a more 'radical' and 'edgy' style (as in 'fashionable' art style choice at that time) that drew in mass market appeal and further following. TW2 also was more grounded in a "realistic" (well the enviroment was harsher and there was more depth to the simple "monster hunt" which was the defacto standard up to that point).

TW3 streamlined that formula to fit the Skyrim-esque open world style games, which has a lot of mainstream appeal. I would also want to add that TW3 was released at a point where consumers were still 'hungry' for open world games coming from Skyrim namely. That TW3 has elements of a power fantasy certainly helps, but i'd not put much weight into that.

 

I cannot see that happening from PoE. The cult following is certainly there but i don't think the 'pirate' theme is enough to draw mass market appeal - especially with the market beeing quie niche and i'd say rather well saturated. Maybe for a old-school Kotor like RPG that borrows elements from TW and ME. There i can see potential for wide mass market / mainstream appeal if you'd move through a series. PoE is just too niche imo to find that mass market appeal.

 

Edit: I neglected to mention that also every game up to TW3 has had its share of controversy (bad publicity is better than no publicity) - like the often forgotten 'overtuned' difficulty on release of TW2...

Edited March 22, 2017 by Duskshift

[Wormerine]

I enjoyed the Witcher games and found the stories they told interesting and adult. However, I'm reasonably sure the whole "sex and violence" thing contributed quite a bit to their success. Nothing wrong with that, but that sort of thing just isn't in the DNA of the IE games.

Yeah, witcher is more marketable. All things said and done... would Obsidian even want to go AAA? That would mean working in much much bigger team, tailoring game to appeal to much bigger audience, spending obscene amount of money on marketing, making deals with publishers.

[Quillon]

Basic psychology Quillon, basic psychology. Everyone likes to think they're above it, but no one really is. If you want to convince me that you're not having old-guy fantasies where you're young and virile and attractive again, then I'd advice against pointing out how your attention is drawn specifically into the 'increased libido of a Witcher'

I really don't get how you draw your conclusions like wtf.

 

I'm 27, never had old guy fantazies "old guy fantazies" lol. I told how I saw Geralt and he's certainly not a fantasy to be, beside being too old, he's too dumb for one thing, which is why I also said if it were to be a adolescent fantasy for me, I'd need to create my own, younger Witcher. f.i. If I were playing my adolescent power fantasy I'd choose innocent-lovely-younger Triss instead of what the character has been clearly intended for, it never sit well choosing Triss. This is an adult story with artificial power fantasy hooks. I certainly enjoyed it but I think I'd have enjoyed it even more if I was older/had a daughter.

[Sakai]

I really don't get how you draw your conclusions like wtf.

I'm 27, never had old guy fantazies "old guy fantazies" lol. I told how I saw Geralt and he's certainly not a fantasy to be, beside being too old, he's too dumb for one thing, which is why I also said if it were to be a adolescent fantasy for me, I'd need to create my own, younger Witcher. f.i. If I were playing my adolescent power fantasy I'd choose innocent-lovely-younger Triss instead of what the character has been clearly intended for, it never sit well choosing Triss. This is an adult story with artificial power fantasy hooks. I certainly enjoyed it but I think I'd have enjoyed it even more if I was older/had a daughter.

 

To blame Witcher for being a power fantasy is very bizzare though. PoE is a power fantasy as well. Quite literally almost every single game out there is a power fantasy in one way or another. They're adding romances in PoE 2 now too. So i'm guessing it mean it's going to be "adolescent" too, since that seems to be the definition. 

[Katarack21]

 

I really don't get how you draw your conclusions like wtf.

I'm 27, never had old guy fantazies "old guy fantazies" lol. I told how I saw Geralt and he's certainly not a fantasy to be, beside being too old, he's too dumb for one thing, which is why I also said if it were to be a adolescent fantasy for me, I'd need to create my own, younger Witcher. f.i. If I were playing my adolescent power fantasy I'd choose innocent-lovely-younger Triss instead of what the character has been clearly intended for, it never sit well choosing Triss. This is an adult story with artificial power fantasy hooks. I certainly enjoyed it but I think I'd have enjoyed it even more if I was older/had a daughter.

 

To blame Witcher for being a power fantasy is very bizzare though. PoE is a power fantasy as well. Quite literally almost every single game out there is a power fantasy in one way or another. They're adding romances in PoE 2 now too. So i'm guessing it mean it's going to be "adolescent" too, since that seems to be the definition. 

 

Well, BG2 had romances, as well. But they had actual *romances*. Maybe the writing was ****, but it took time, and effort, and there were consequences for your choices--party members could leave, hell you could *have a baby*.

 

Very different from Witcher 3's excuses-for-a-sex-scene.

[Sakai]

Well, BG2 had romances, as well. But they had actual *romances*. Maybe the writing was ****, but it took time, and effort, and there were consequences for your choices--party members could leave, hell you could *have a baby*.

 

Very different from Witcher 3's excuses-for-a-sex-scene.

Try to romance both Triss and Yen and then tell there are no consequences. 

[Katarack21]

 

Well, BG2 had romances, as well. But they had actual *romances*. Maybe the writing was ****, but it took time, and effort, and there were consequences for your choices--party members could leave, hell you could *have a baby*.

 

Very different from Witcher 3's excuses-for-a-sex-scene.

Try to romance both Triss and Yen and then tell there are no consequences. 

 

That's *literally* the only one with any reaction. You can bang three other women and not only does nobody care, *nobody even reacts*. The only "cheating" anybody accuses Geralt of is *when he was mindwiped*.

[Valmy]

To answer the OP: Not really. This is not a mainstream type of title. Which is fine by me. Skyrim, which I enjoyed, has pretty much ruined mainstream RPGs this decade. Pity.

[Sakai]

That's *literally* the only one with any reaction. You can bang three other women and not only does nobody care, *nobody even reacts*. The only "cheating" anybody accuses Geralt of is *when he was mindwiped*.

That is because novels, and consequently the games, don't equate sex with love. Both Geralt and Yennefer have sex with other people in the books, but they only love each other. Now, i would argue that's a very mature approach, whether you agree with it or not. 

[Katarack21]

 

That's *literally* the only one with any reaction. You can bang three other women and not only does nobody care, *nobody even reacts*. The only "cheating" anybody accuses Geralt of is *when he was mindwiped*.

That is because novels, and consequently the games, don't equate sex with love. Both Geralt and Yennefer have sex with other people in the books, but they only love each other. Now, i would argue that's a very mature approach, whether you agree with it or not. 

 

But Yennifer *does* get angry with Geralt for having *sex* with Triss *WHILE HE WAS MINDWIPED*, and if he rekindles a relationship during the course of the game. The game doesn't provide any consistent moral principle; it just creates a plot-based block on romancing both female protagonists simultaneously, but doesn't apply the same rules to non-main-character women. Also, Geralt can declare Triss to be the love of his life, not Yennifer--if you'd rather see the Triss sex-scene over the Yennifer sex-scene (it's the sex-scene that creates the hard lock on furthering the other romance).

 

Because it's an adolescent power fantasy, it lets you have consequence-free sex. Because it has to obey the rules of story structure, it has to enforce a dichotomy on main plot. It doesn't actually get more complicated then that.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Katarack21

[Sakai]

But Yennifer *does* get angry with Geralt for having *sex* with Triss *WHILE HE WAS MINDWIPED*, and if he rekindles a relationship during the course of the game. The game doesn't provide any consistent moral principle; it just creates a plot-based block on romancing both female protagonists simultaneously, but doesn't apply the same rules to non-main-character women. Also, Geralt can declare Triss to be the love of his life, not Yennifer--if you'd rather see the Triss sex-scene over the Yennifer sex-scene (it's the sex-scene that creates the hard lock on furthering the other romance).

 

Because it's an adolescent power fantasy, it lets you have consequence-free sex. Because it has to obey the rules of story structure, it has to enforce a dichotomy on main plot. It doesn't actually get more complicated then that.

Not just sex, a relationship, which started in the books. But sure, fine. Whatever you say. Witcher is an adolescent power fantasy that i greatly enjoy and will continue to enjoy for years to come probably. Good day to you. 

[Ninjamestari]

 

Basic psychology Quillon, basic psychology. Everyone likes to think they're above it, but no one really is. If you want to convince me that you're not having old-guy fantasies where you're young and virile and attractive again, then I'd advice against pointing out how your attention is drawn specifically into the 'increased libido of a Witcher'

I really don't get how you draw your conclusions like wtf.

 

I'm 27, never had old guy fantazies "old guy fantazies" lol. I told how I saw Geralt and he's certainly not a fantasy to be, beside being too old, he's too dumb for one thing, which is why I also said if it were to be a adolescent fantasy for me, I'd need to create my own, younger Witcher. f.i. If I were playing my adolescent power fantasy I'd choose innocent-lovely-younger Triss instead of what the character has been clearly intended for, it never sit well choosing Triss. This is an adult story with artificial power fantasy hooks. I certainly enjoyed it but I think I'd have enjoyed it even more if I was older/had a daughter.

 

 

The adolescent part comes from the overarching themes that surround Geralt as a character. You can make a checklist: 'no emotion', but strangely enough he cares, so it's only the emotions that make someone vulnerable that Geralt lacks - this is textbook adolescent fantasy. Being sterile and immune to diseases - the ability to bang every single hot chick without consequences - another textbook adolescent fantasy. An experienced man that is desired by all the hot women - yet another textbook case of an adolescent who fantasizes about being validated by females. The line a game has to cross in order to turn from simple power fantasy into an adolescent one is murky at best, yes, but the Witcher is a clear text-book case.

 

There's no "your personal adolescent fantasy" in this context here, the Witcher is a very generic adolescent power fantasy. Your personal fantasies are something else entirely you know, adult men fantasize about power too, but the fantasies are different, more mature so to speak, from the fantasies of adolescents. What is regarded as an adolescent power fantasy has been clearly documented and researched and it is quite clearly defined, and has everything to do with how an adolescent mind works, what do adolescents think about and what do they fear and desire. Adolescents want to be validated adults, and they want the validation of the opposite sex more than anything, but they fear responsibility and they fear of being hurt, often they fear emotional hurt a lot more than physical injury. Hence an emotionally invulnerable character that gets everything an adolescent mind could dream about, all the while being immune to all those things the young person fears about sex (responsibility through pregnancy, disease, being emotionally hurt through exposing themselves to intimacy etc). This is the way a child fantasizes, they want to just be able to ignore the things that make them feel uncomfortable.

 

I mean, of course the games have a lot of other themes as well, political and otherwise, but Geralt as a character really is a textbook case of adolescent power fantasy, and that a large part of why young boys and young men find the game so appealing; they literally get to play out their own fantasies, with all the important details perfectly replicated. I hope I was able to explain it sufficiently ^^

 

oh, and the old-man jab, sorry about that, couldn't resist. This is also basic stuff. People who are getting older and realizing that their physical peak is in the past often fantasize about revitalized youth, and when doing a psychological analysis about a person you mark in details about the things they speak about and the details they bring up, because subconsciously those things are the ones they have paid attention to, which means that their subconscious mind holds those interpretations of reality relevant and important. In your case, the "increased libido of a witcher" is another really text-book example of how an old man would think and fantasize. Hell, in all likelihood an adolescent hasn't even heard the word 'libido', and since they're experiencing the greatest hormonal activity they've ever had during their short lives, they certainly aren't worried about libido, they take it as granted and don't pay much attention to the whole concept even if it is explained to them. Thus you fantasize like an old man past his physical and sexual prime. Again, sorry about the jab, but this is just so clear text-book stuff that I couldn't resist :D

[Quillon]

Well...I guess you're right :D He's basically a medieval superhero but he's the older batman rather than the young spidey. Which might be why I don't/can't fantasize myself being him when playing the games. I make the choices for the character rather than for me, I ask myself what would Geralt say/do before I choose to say/do those things. When I read the books I wanted to be Cahir rather than Geralt. All of which don't change the fact that this franchise has about the same level of power fantasy as any other RPG, but its god awful atm for you because its SUCCESSFUL and because ****ting on Bio-games isn't as much fun any more. 

 

 

ed: Oh, also I said "Its your loss if you can't see past the increased libido of a Witcher." cos you were the ones who mentioned repeatedly "he gets the girlz".

Edited March 23, 2017 by Quillon

[Katarack21]

No. It doesn't have the same level of power fantasy as "any other RPG". Planescape: Torment didn't let you play as a super-manly sex god who can sleep with all the big-tittie witches, whom all the men want to be and/or fear, etc.

[Quillon]

Hah. Any other? 1 more? 2 more? And how many RPG franchises out there? Every RPG other than PST is ****?