Are daggers the best weapons for dw rogue? how to duplicate Draw in Spring?

[helmino]

Hi all! Like the title of the topic says i have some questions:

- Are daggers the best weapons for a DW rogue?

- How can i obtain 2 draw in Spring?

- Draw in spring is useful against High DR target, wich other dagger you suggest for other low DR Enemies?

- There are some viable Rapier?

- Is Vulnerable Attack worth it for a DW rogue?

Thank you all in advance!

[Boeroer]

- Daggers: nope, not per se. They are especially bad with things like Backstab because they have high speed but low per hit damage. Backstab attacks are limited so you want to have as much ooph as you can get when backstabbing. That's only an issue if you plan to use Backstab of course. Or you could always have another weapon the the second slot just for the backstabs and switch to daggers once the autoattacking begins.

The best one handed weapons for a rogue are those which work well with the high crit chances a rogue has. Those can be annihilating weapons like all battle axes, unique sabres or whatever has that enchantment and is one handed - or those can be weapons which proc an effect when you do a crit - like prone or stun (We Toki battle axe, Cladhaliath spear, Godanysthunyr war hammer). So, in this regard battle axes (as a group) could be seen as the best weapons for rogue - the best one handed weapon maybe We Toki, maybe Cladaliath with stunning + Vicious, maybe Drawn in Spring - or even the two annihilating sabres Resolution and Purgatory. But I doubt that all could agree on one single weapon, a single weapon group or even a single weapon focus because it also depends a lot on your playstyle and how you use a rogue. Drawn in Spring is a great Weapon, on of the best in the game. But since you get it quite late and have to duplicate it in order to dual wield it, I would say daggers as a weapon group are not the superuber best pick - but also not bad, mind you.

You can also use rapiers with the same weapon focus and therefore you can combine really good early game weapons like Sword of Daenysis + March Steel dagger which is very good if you look at dps (both have the speed enchantment which lets you easily achieve 0 recovery with a rogue). This has also the advantage that you will do pierce and slash damage and not slash only.

 

- You have to use the Helwax Mold. It's an item you can get via stronghold adventure. You can use the mold to clone any non-soulbound item once (including all enchtantments).

 

- Drawn in Spring, too. A dagger which has high dps and comes quite early is the March Steel Dagger from that quest with the boy Gordy in Defiance Bay, Copperlane. As I said it has speed and that's the best dps enchantment there is besides wounding.

 

- good rapiers are Sword of Daenysis (Salty Mast top floor, Vincent Dwellier, CRPG), Spelltongue (WMI) and Vienna's Leaves (Endless Paths, Adra Dragon). For me the best overall is Sword of Daenysis because it comes so early, has speed and is rending, too (inherent 3 DR bypass like stilettos). But in certain situations and with certain builds Spelltongue is better.

 

- I would say yes. Especially if you use fast, light weapons which tend to have problems with high DR - but watch out: you can't just switch it on and think it's always benefical. There is a sweet spot (DR vs speed) where switching on VA is benefical.
BUT there's a case where you can always use it without drawbacks: If you follow my fist recommendation with Sword of Daenysis + March Steel Dagger (Spelltongue + March Steel also works - you can even switch to Drawn in Spring later once you have Durgan Steel) you can quickly reach 0 recovery. Once you reach 0 recovery you can't get faster even if you add more speed bonuses. That is the time when Vulnerable Attack starts to be really good because you don't lose speed (you have "too much speed" already) but will deal +5 damage with every hit.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[helmino]

- Daggers: nope, not per se. They are especially bad with things like Backstab because they have high speed but low per hit damage. Backstab attacks are limited so you want to have as much ooph as you can get when backstabbing.

The best one handed weapons for a rogue are those which work well with the high crit chances a rogue has. Those can be annihilating weapons like all battle axes, unique sabres or whatever has that enchantment and is one handed - or those can be weapons which proc an effect when you do a crit - like prone or stun (We Toki battle axe, Cladhaliath spear, Godanysthunyr war hammer). So, in this regard battle axes (as a group) could be seen as the best weapons for rogue - the best one handed weapon maybe We Toki, maybe Cladaliath with stunning + Vicious, maybe Drawn in Spring - or even the two annihilating sabres Resolution and Purgatory. But I doubt that all could agree on one single weapon, a single weapon group or even a single weapon focus because it also depends a lot on your playstyle and how you use a rogue. Drawn in Spring is a great Weapon, on of the best in the game. But since you get it quite late and have to duplicate it in order to dual wield it, I would say daggers as a weapon group are not the superuber best pick - but also not bad, mind you.

You can also use rapiers with the same weapon focus and therefore you can combine really good early game weapons like Sword of Daenysis + March Steel dagger which is very good if you look at dps (both have the speed enchantment which lets you easily achieve 0 recovery with a rogue). This has also the advantage that you will do pierce and slash damage and not slash only.

 

- You have to use the Helwax Mold. It's an item you can get via stronghold adventure. You can use the mold to clone any non-soulbound item once (including all enchtantments).

 

- Drawn in Spring, too. A dagger which has high dps and comes quite early is the March Steel Dagger from that quest with the boy Gordy in Defiance Bay, Copperlane.

 

- good rapiers are Sword of Daenysis (Salty Mast top floor, Vincent Dwellier, CRPG), Spelltongue (WMI) and Vienna's Leaves (Endless Paths, Adra Dragon). For me the best overall is Sword of Daenysis because it comes so early, has speed and is rending. But in certain situations and with certain builds Spelltongue is better.

 

- Yes. Especially if you use fast, light weapons which tned to have problems with high DR - but there is a sweet spot where switching on VA is benefical. o you can't say it's alwys benefical. But there's a case where you can always use it without drawbacks: If you follow my fist recommendation with Sword of Daenysis + March Steel Dagger (Spelltongue + March Steel also works - you can even switch to Drawn in Spring later once you have Durgan Steel) you can quickly reach 0 recovery. Once you reach 0 recovery you can't get faster even if you add more speed bonuses. That is the time when Vulnerable Attack starts to be really good because you don't lose speed (you have "too much speed" already) but will deal +5 damage with every hit.

 

So a dagger or stiletto rogue is vastly inferior to any 0.5 crit weapon vielder? Are special stiletto worse than special dagger?

Edited March 19, 2017 by helmino

[Boeroer]

No, not vastly. Just a bit. It's totally viable to wield daggers or stilettos. But if you ask me about the optimum of dps I would say dual Rimecutters are best - and the best overall would be We Toki for me because the combo of prone on crit + extra crit damage is nice, followed by Drawn in Spring. Only my personal opinion though. But as I said the Sword of Daenysis + March Steel Dagger is also very nice and it will feel very powerful because so early in the game you will find few dw combos which are as good. If you like the duelist style you can totally do that, stick to it and have lots of fun.

 

Two daggers is also ok of course.

 

There are some nice unique stilettos, also early ones. I wouldn't say that stilettos are worse than daggers when it comes to uniques. 

 

Honestly you can take whatever weapon you want - it will not gimp your rogue. This game isn't like that. The weapons are well balanced and the differences between weapons are marginal if you play with a party. If you like daggers best then it's no problem at all. Just don't pick Backstab then (I know: "WTF?" ).

Edited March 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[helmino]

No, not vastly. Just a bit. It's totally viable to wield daggers or stilettos. But if you ask me about the optimum of dps I would say dual Rimecutters are best - and the best overall would be We Toki for me because the combo of prone on crit + extra crit damage is nice, followed by Drawn in Spring. Only my personal opinion though. But as I said the Sword of Daenysis + March Steel Dagger is also very nice and it will feel very powerful because so early in the game you will find few dw combos which are as good. If you like the duelist style you can totally do that, stick to it and have lots of fun.

 

Two daggers is also ok of course.

 

There are some nice unique stilettos, also early ones. I wouldn't say that stilettos are worse than daggers when it comes to uniques. 

 

Honestly you can take whatever weapon you want - it will not gimp your rogue. This game isn't like that. The weapons are well balanced and the differences between weapons are marginal if you play with a party. If you like daggers best then it's no problem at all. Just don't pick Backstab then (I know: "WTF?" ).

 

Ok thanks on the dagger vs stiletto whats the better category for you in the end?

[firkraag888]

^^^^^^^

 

If your looking to output huge damage on a dual wield rogue go sabres or axes. Dual bittercut, rime cutter would prob be best.

 

I personally find drawn in spring underwhelming on a rogue and I think wounding has been patched out to not stack anymore. On my last play through the combat lag just showed the 5 sec wounding count down topping up with every hit and not accumulating.

Edited March 19, 2017 by firkraag888

[helmino]

^^^^^^^

 

If your looking to output huge damage on a dual wield rogue go sabres or axes. Dual bittercut, rime cutter would prob be best.

 

I personally find drawn in spring underwhelming on a rogue and I think wounding has been patched out to not stack anymore. On my last play through the combat lag just showed the 5 sec wounding count down topping up with every hit and not accumulating.

 

Will probably go for 2 +20% attk speed fast weapon at the end

[Boeroer]

As far as I know wounding still stacks - with makes Drawn in Spring one of the best DPS weapons overall. Sadly, the UI doesn't show wounding right, like it fails to communicate correct values on so many other occasions.

I may be wrong here - I didn't use a wounding weapon since 3.04 - but I guess that a lot of the hardcore-people here would have complained if OBS nerfed this.

 

BUT you have to have high MIG in order to experience the true greatness of wounding. That's because MIG not only influences the damage roll which wounding's damage is based on, but it also buffs wounding directly (doing more than 25%).

With low MIG wounding is not as good. Some rogues have lowish MIG because they can get lots of other DMG boosts and therefore invest more in DEX or PER.

 

Bittercut is very good if you also take Spirit of Decay and put a corrosive lash on it. Two damage types are very nice to have, too.

 

If I would have to decide between stilettos and daggers I would probably take stilettos - but only because all the Lagufaeth stilettos tou can loot do slash damage instead of pierce. That way you can have a good backup weapon set for the enemies who are resistant or immune to pierce damage.

 

But as I said: rapier + dagger totally fine. Just avoid to use abilities with them that only have limited uses like Backstab and Finishing Blow. Those work one time with the weapon's base damage and since light, fast weapons have low base damage the outcome would be meh. Just skip those or switch to a heavy weapon (guns also work) before using those abilities. Also includes Runner's Wounding Shot, which is very powerful with a heavy weapon like an arquebus for example and not so good with a dagger.

[helmino]

As far as I know wounding still stacks - with makes Drawn in Spring one of the best DPS weapons overall. Sadly, the UI doesn't show wounding right, like it fails to communicate correct values on so many other occasions.

I may be wrong here - I didn't use a wounding weapon since 3.04 - but I guess that a lot of the hardcore-people here would have complained if OBS nerfed this.

 

BUT you have to have high MIG in order to experience the true greatness of wounding. That's because MIG not only influences the damage roll which wounding's damage is based on, but it also buffs wounding directly (doing more than 25%).

With low MIG wounding is not as good. Some rogues have lowish MIG because they can get lots of other DMG boosts and therefore invest more in DEX or PER.

 

Bittercut is very good if you also take Spirit of Decay and put a corrosive lash on it. Two damage types are very nice to have, too.

 

If I would have to decide between stilettos and daggers I would probably take stilettos - but only because all the Lagufaeth stilettos tou can loot do slash damage instead of pierce. That way you can have a good backup weapon set for the enemies who are resistant or immune to pierce damage.

 

But as I said: rapier + dagger totally fine. Just avoid to use abilities with them that only have limited uses like Backstab and Finishing Blow. Those work one time with the weapon's base damage and since light, fast weapons have low base damage the outcome would be meh. Just skip those or switch to a heavy weapon (guns also work) before using those abilities. Also includes Runner's Wounding Shot, which is very powerful with a heavy weapon like an arquebus for example and not so good with a dagger.

 

Yea i figured out how attack speed works, and since it work on a % base it favor slow weapon in the long run, thats why those weapon are stronger, for 0.5 crit damage too. I can respec later to those weapon i suppose and start with your suggestion

[Boeroer]

That's not really how attack speed works - but it's way too complicated to put it in a few words. There's that whole thread about it.

 

Yeah - you can always retrain if you find something cool that you like better.

[helmino]

That's not really how attack speed works - but it's way too complicated to put it in a few words. There's that whole thread about it.

 

Yeah - you can always retrain if you find something cool that you like better.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86684-mechanics-the-big-attack-speed-conundrum/

 

This one?

[Whipstitch]

Bittercut is very good if you also take Spirit of Decay and put a corrosive lash on it. Two damage types are very nice to have, too.

Spirit of Decay is also a nice bonus when using Minor Missile scrolls since that spell also deals corrode damage. Scrolls are nice on rogues in general for a number of reasons--not that I need to tell Boeroer that--but Minor Missiles in particular is a standout for melee rogues because it's only level 1 and doesn't need a boatload of cash, skill ranks or Intellect to be a handy toy. You just keep a handful around and when some annoying caster survives your party's opening volley you can whip out a scroll and crit them in the face for great justice.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Whipstitch

[Boeroer]

Bittercut is also nice for rogues because Vile Thorns will not only work with Deathblows but also deliver Deep Wounds to everything they hit (Minor Missiles, Concussive Missiles and Bounding Missiles do that, too - also Missile Barrage of course). AND the Vile Thorns spell binding on Bittercut has no recovery and gets cast instantly without a fat & lazy animation. Don't know why, but it lets you spam 3 Vile Thorns uses in the blink of an eye - which can totally save your buttocks.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

 

That's not really how attack speed works - but it's way too complicated to put it in a few words. There's that whole thread about it.

 

Yeah - you can always retrain if you find something cool that you like better.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86684-mechanics-the-big-attack-speed-conundrum/

 

This one?

 

Yes, exactly. MaxQuest is the master of attack speed and other mechanics stuff. If you understand what is written there you totally know how attack speed works.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[helmino]

Thanks guys

[Boeroer]

You're welcome.

[Sethanon]

When I played solo rogue, I always used dual sabres - Resolution (can be obtained early) and Purgatory (in Twin Elms).

 

Focusing on Drawn in Spring is harder, it comes later. Also Unlabored Blade, but it comes even later.

Personally I like to have my weapons ready very fast, not after 2/3 of the game Never played with Bittercut...I miss 0.5 crit dmg multiplier

[JerekKruger]

Never played with Bittercut...I miss 0.5 crit dmg multiplier

 

Well Spirit of Decay is +0.2 damage on all hits for Bittercut, rather than +0.5 on just crits. On top of that Bittercut is dual damage type which is probably a few points of DR bypass equivalent on average. Whether that's better than the +0.5 from crits with Purgatory and Resolution depends on crit rate I guess.

[Boeroer]

I would say if you crit more than 50% of your swings (not counting misses) you could think about resolution or purgatory.

Besides that Bittercut also has nice spell bindings.

[Kaylon]

A rogue using Resolution/Purgatory has to land at least 40% criticals just to compensate the 20% dmg Bittercut gets from Spirit of Decay. To compensate the dual damage however, I think even 100% criticals won't be enough..

[Boeroer]

Yeah, two different damage types is quite handy. And the combo corrode/slash is very unique. I think only one creature is immune to both (Earth Blight)?

 

But you could always have a second set of clubs or stilettos to avoid immunities - so it might not be too bad to have slash only with the annihilating sabre duo.

 

Anyway, I rate Bittercut as no.1 sabre and also as one of the best weapons overall.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Boeroer

[rheingold]

There is a nice stiletto in Gilded vale. Procs jolting touch. Main advantage obviously is its available early. In general I'd also rank weapons as to when they are available, not just how good they are. You get some great weapons towards the end  - when you've finished the game. But weapons like the march dagger, tall grass are great because they are early, and even if you end up replacing them you have still got a substantial amount of usage out of them.

I personally don't like respeccing, so I would only choose a weapon focus somewhere down the line. When you are committed to a particular weapon. Until then use whatever is the best at that time - or just looks cool...

[Boeroer]

The great thing about Azureith's Stiletto is that you can use it with a monk - and Turning Wheel as well as Lightning Strikes and Blood Testament Gloves will add their lashes to the shock damage. And since Jolting Touch's damage should be higher than the usual weapon damage in that phase of the game it leads to an impressive increase in damage - even if it's only 1/encounter.

Also works with Animancer's Boots by the way and all other things (items, scrolls) that can deliver Jolting Touch.

 

It also works with Deathblows.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

In general I'd also rank weapons as to when they are available, not just how good they are.

 

Yeah, I tend to agree. There are two pretty good swords that are available late into the game (Cat's Claw and Last Blade of the White Forge) but because the selection of swords before this point is fairly poor, I pretty much never use swords. It's one thing I really hope they improve in Deadfire: make sure that all weapon types have a fairly even progression i.e. whatever weapon I want to use, make sure there's a decent early, mid and late game option.

 

I'd say that's another thing that works in Bittercut's favour: it's available pretty early on. Depending on what your main character is, I'd even argue that it's easier to get than Resolution, and certainly long before Purgatory.

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

In general I'd also rank weapons as to when they are available, not just how good they are.

Yeah, I tend to agree. There are two pretty good swords that are available late into the game (Cat's Claw and Last Blade of the White Forge) but because the selection of swords before this point is fairly poor, I pretty much never use swords. It's one thing I really hope they improve in Deadfire: make sure that all weapon types have a fairly even progression i.e. whatever weapon I want to use, make sure there's a decent early, mid and late game option.

 

I'd say that's another thing that works in Bittercut's favour: it's available pretty early on. Depending on what your main character is, I'd even argue that it's easier to get than Resolution, and certainly long before Purgatory.

Totally agree about swords. Obs has had some serious sword hate going on. Whispers was really only good for that one encounter in Caed Nua. I guess it was only added because the deb's couldn't get past that encounter when playtesting. The +2 Con was good for health stacking on a Dwarf until it was realized that Con wasn't much of a factor in game. Shame or Glory was maybe the only good option but that sword dictates play style.

 

I loved the idea of Clad, hopefully they add a build your own sword in Deadfire. Or a Staff. I hated that only Tal's Staff had Fireballs. I want spell slinging staves! That is my vision of the battle wizard.