THE FINAL MOST OVERPOWERED CLASS (BUILD) THREAD

[firkraag888]

^^^^

 

what build can dual wield on effect weapons that proc on crits more consistently then rogues without buffs, potions, scrolls?

[Boeroer]

Possibly a barb who attacks a mob and a monk who uses Torment's Reach on a mob. But what does it matter to find some small niche (dual wielding on crit weapons that you find very late in the game without buffs and so on) where rogues are good? In theory, a priest for example could crit more reliably with the right talents and spells that are inherent to his class. He will buff himself to +40 ACC with two spells and add +20% hit to crit conversion with another. Then he uses this bonuses to attack in melee - which is the worst choice...

 

But what is it good for to find those unimportant niches? If it's great single target CC you are looking for, a fighter will be better, reliably able to prone even dragons. A monk, being able to use Stunning Blows, Skyward Kick and Force of Anguish, can deliver CC more reliably, too. Especially because such abilities get +1 to accuracy per level while using on-crit effects don't.

 

But why discuss those minor matters? We want to determine if rogues are the weakest class and no. 1 single target guy.

 

I have the impression you want to chicken out of the challenge.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

so you cant find a build that can?

 

dual wield on effect weapons that proc on crits more consistently then rogues without buffs, potions, scrolls?

[Boeroer]

I think I answered that question good enough in my previous post. See the part about barbs and monks. They will generate more crits and therefore prone/stun in a given timespan without buffs, scrolls or potions as long as more than two enemies are attacked. Especially the barb will do at higher levels because he needs no resource like wounds for it and because carnage + accurate carnage will result in +11 accuracy at lvl 16 with carnage hits - give in the barb's carnage more accuracy than the rogue's autoattacks and having the big advantage that he will hit a lot more foes at the same time, thus generating more crits in total. 

Maybe even a melee dual wielding ranger will be able to proc on crit effects as many times with the help of his companion - didn't test that but he could come close. His ACC will be higher but he will have lower hit/drit conversion. But does he need to do that? Nope, because he has stunning shts which also works in melee - thus making on crit effects totally redundant because he will cause stun with every hit. So even the high proc-on-crit rate of a rogue doesn't truely make him best at anything that's relevant.

 

But why are you changing the subject so dramatically from some general statements to this nitpicking? 

 

It sounds a bit like saying (not implying you meant it that way):

 

"Wait a second - your arguments are good and all, BUT: can you find a build that can deal more than 100 damage with a two hander with a single crit at level 4 - twice per encounter? You can't? Haha - there you go! All your arguments from before are wrong because you can't do this special task, nah nah nah nah!".

 

Besides a paladin with Firebrand maybe no one can deal such hits at lvl 4. That doesn't mean the paladin is the strongest dps class or good at anything else than doing strong hits twice per encounter with FoD & Firebrand.

 

Now I'm pretty sure you do not want to accept the challenge. The reasons remain concealed...

Edited March 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

^^^^^

 

That's called deflecting.

 

You lost the challenge.

 

No build can land the on crit affects more then a rogue without buffs, potions, scrolls

[Boeroer]

It's called chickening out.

 

Show me a rogue doing a proper encounter - even with sidekicks.

That's how you can determine if a class is weakest or is no.1 single target damage dealer or not. Maybe there are other ways, but picking a single small thing and deducing that this thing makes a whole class strong or weak is not.

 

You can't determine if a class is weak or not or top single target DPS or not by showing me the likelyness of crits. This can be a hint but nothing more.

 

It's like - instead of accepting the fair challenge to come up with a good build and show what it can achieve in an encounter - I would ask you to find a class that can petrify enemies other than druid an wizard and then saying "you lost the challenge" if you can't.

 

My challenge still stands. If you don't want to accept it then fine. But don't come up with alternative meaningless challenges like the one above. Because then this would go on forever - I'm also capable of inventing meaningless challenges - like "0 recovery with a two hander with Vulnerable Attack, plate armor, Cautious Attack and without scrolls and potions". But since that is just pussyfooting around I won't do it.

 

I don't say you lost my challenge, but if you're not willing to accept it nor even talk about it I assume you have developed some doubts.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

^^^^^

 

That's called deflecting.

 

You lost the challenge.

 

No build can land the on crit affects more then a rogue without buffs, potions, scrolls

 

On crit effect (3s stun) are just weaker version of what Druids and Wizz do for breakfast on an AoE.

Barbarian can apply it on an AoE.

Not to mention that ranger can apply Stun twice per attack and on Hit rather than Crit.

 

Rogue is the least versatile class. And what he can do arguably best (single target DPS), he can do marginally better than other class such as Ranger, Druid, Fighter and Monk. And it's not even easy to demonstrate that Rogue do better damages than Druid and Ranger ! As Boeroer says, it has been debatted many times, and no evidence were ever found that Rogues were superior.

He's still weaker at everything less. He's not even as good as Fighter at taking out priority targets... (Ah, Charge !!)

 

You should know that Rogue is consistently seen as #11 class by the community.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88395-what-are-the-most-powerful-classes-in-303/page-3

 

 

Furthermore, I suspect your judgement to be totally subejctive.

You list monks as number #11 in your list saying they does not fit your playstyle.

I don't like playing monks either. I don't like having to take damages to use abilities. But I can see why people love them and think they are very powerful.

 

Maybe Rogue fits your playstyle. Rogue has a good early game and is not far below other classes. You may feel it good, and that's because the game is rather well balanced.

But if you are trying to argue about the strongest class about experienced (and math-loving ^^) players, it is not likely that you'll convince them.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Elric Galad

[fiddlesticks]

Come to think of it, a Fighter might actually land on-crit effects more often than a Rogue if we discount potions and buffs. The +20 Accuracy from Disciplined Barrage probably beats the 20% Hit-to-Crit conversion and +8 Melee Accuracy of the Rogue. Only lasts for about 20 seconds, though.

[Boeroer]

Technically Disciplined Barrage is a buff.

[firkraag888]

ok you got me.

 

Starcaller, wetoki, cladheliath, are all crap, are not worth it and don't work simply because you don't need them because casters have spells.

 

Rogues also aren't needed. I think.

[Elric Galad]

I don't know whether this is sarcasm, but in case...

 

We're not saying they are all craps and don't work. They are indeed good weapon and their abilities come on top of melee damages.

But the thread is about discussing the most overpowered classes and build. And they are not. This is simple as that.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

ok you got me.

 

Starcaller, wetoki, cladheliath, are all crap, are not worth it and don't work simply because you don't need them because casters have spells.

 

Rogues also aren't needed. I think.

Please don't be sarcastic. Nobody said or meant that. We are just saying that those weapons or the usage of them don't prove anything around the question "weakest class/best damage dealer".

Of course those are great weapons and they improve a melee character's performance. But not only the performance of rogues. Rogues do more crits than most other classes and maybe the most crits when it comes to single targets - but that doesn't make them the best damage dealer or a powerfull class per se. It's not that other classes don't crit at all or something like that.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

^^^^^

 

You do realise you are trying that to convince me that a rogue built for inflicting critical hits dual weilding any 2 of those 3 weapons listed above with on crit effects is one of the weakest builds in the game?

 

You cant be serious.

Edited March 19, 2017 by firkraag888

[Livegood118]

This is kind of the problem I identified in my original posts in this thread. It’s very hard to rate the classes without looking at specific jobs that need to be accomplished, for example:

 

– Single Target Damage

– AoE Damage

– Hard CC (Area)

– Soft CC (Area)

– CC (Single Target)

– Tanking

– Support/Buffs

 

If we did this with the Rogue, we'd probably get:

 

– Single Target Damage, A

– AoE Damage, C+ (If you want to use scrolls), D otherwise

– Hard CC (Area), B- if scrolls, D otherwise

– Soft CC (Area), D

– CC (Single Target), B+

– Tanking, C-

– Support/Buffs, D

– Need to rest © (Low health)

 

Then with the Druid, we get:

 

– Single Target Damage (B+/A-)

– AoE Damage, A

– Hard CC (Area), A

– Soft CC (Area), B+

– CC (Single Target), A

– Tanking, B

– Support/Buffs, B+

– Need to Rest, C- (Vancian Caster)

 

This kind of gives a better indication of the different strengths and weaknesses of the characters.

[indika_tates]

 

Because I'm awake now anyways I searched for the discussion and also found some nice screenshots within it:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90814-pleading-for-rogue-buff-once-more/page-2?do=findComment&comment=1869590

 

Whatever - I think most of us agree that the priest may be no. 1 on the power level. He can do anything: buffs, damage, healing - only CC is a bit meh.

 

Doesn't matter if rogue carries the red lantern or not.

 

If you want to look at it that way a spirit shifted druid will out dps any melee character with the rogue being at the top of that list. What is the point in having a Monk, fighter, Paladin or a Rogue? Just Roll 6 druids and keep spirit shifting.

 

By the time a druid spirit shifts and positions for melee you cant really get much off.

 

 Your also not taking into consideration the weapons the rogue can weild with its on crit effects and you haven't taken into consideration the amount of time the rogue will criticaly hit either.

 

The Rogue is far and away the highest dps class available in the game. Every Time I roll a rogue he single handedly clears the whole screen quicker then my entire party combined and stun/ prone locks them while doing it

 

 

On POTD your rogue dies no matter what you do. Reckless assault + low deflection + foes rogue apetite means your rogue is on the ground more time than he's fighting. I tried every build, ranged, DW, used every potion at my disposal, every buff, healing from other party members, invisibility items. It doesn't matter. It's not worth it having a rogue in your party.

 

Take a walk to the Abbey or Cradgholt and tell me if your rogue can manage to stay alive more than 15 seconds.

Edited March 19, 2017 by indika_tates

[Livegood118]

Honestly this thread is starting to feel like a troll/honey pot.

 

Views of people with extensive experience of the game who provided mathematics/experience to support their arguments are just being misrepresented.

[Phenomenum]

Hey, i am the one who like rogues, but i agree they aren't n.1 single target DPS, becose druids, yes. The answer is simple and it's all about math - highest damage for rogue crits with anihilating sabres (without priest buffs) and sneak attack/deadblows never be more than 95. This is fact.

Let's count:

Sabre have base dmg 11-16 (let's count highest possible hit as 16) and our might = 20.

Sooo... 16 + 20% (from sabers) + 30% (from might) + 150% (sneak attack + deathblows) + 45% (suberb weapon) + 110% (from crit with annihilation, domenels ability and durgan steel) + 4 dmg from Deep Wounds ability = 355% > 16 + 355% = 72,8. Then we add 25% lash on top of this and Deep Wounds (4 dmg) = 95. That's all. Highest possible gamage from regular attacks - you can't do anything else. Every other damage abilities like Backstab is limited.

P.S. may be i forgot something to calculate?

Druid lands crits far more than 120 dmg only from his native abilities. No sense to argue with this.

[Phenomenum]

"Take a walk to the Abbey or Cradgholt and tell me if your rogue can manage to stay alive more than 15 seconds." - you just don't know how to play for rogue.

I had completed the Cragshold on level 12, on POTD with rogue as main char without being knockout. All knockout for rogue is oneshots from casters between 1-8 levels. After 8 level Rogue have enough endurance to survive one critical hit.

[Phenomenum]

^^^^^

You do realise you are trying that to convince me that a rogue built for inflicting critical hits dual weilding any 2 of those 3 weapons listed above with on crit effects is one of the weakest builds in the game?

You cant be serious.

Sad but true. Every caster can AoE stun a bunch of enemies for 15+ sec. ( some of them for 30+ sec.) with one spell. Rogue can stun just one target.

[Phenomenum]

To be clear - i love rogues, i know how to play very effective with them, but i agree it's one of weakest class in the game.

[indika_tates]

"Take a walk to the Abbey or Cradgholt and tell me if your rogue can manage to stay alive more than 15 seconds." - you just don't know how to play for rogue.

I had completed the Cragshold on level 12, on POTD with rogue as main char without being knockout. All knockout for rogue is oneshots from casters between 1-8 levels. After 8 level Rogue have enough endurance to survive one critical hit.

 

Then I don't know how to play a rogue. It would be nice if someone post a guide about how to develop it, talents, equipment, party composition, battle tactics and so on. I'm talking about the melee ones, of course. Because it's hard to believe how a front-line 40 deflection character can manage to survive later on with 110 accuracy foes that can crit your character for 80% of your endurance and 50% of your health.

[Phenomenum]

Hmm... a buch of guides on this forum. Play a rogue it's not about stats and abilities - more about tactic, positioning and supporting their efforts from rest of your team. Good to have in team as many CC as possible - wizard, cypher.

It hard ro explain - maybe you can find some videos on YouTube that show the rogue playstyle... I'll take a look myself and post, if i find something. Or, maybe i can make a video, if i did't find anything.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Phenomenum

[firkraag888]

 

"Take a walk to the Abbey or Cradgholt and tell me if your rogue can manage to stay alive more than 15 seconds." - you just don't know how to play for rogue.

I had completed the Cragshold on level 12, on POTD with rogue as main char without being knockout. All knockout for rogue is oneshots from casters between 1-8 levels. After 8 level Rogue have enough endurance to survive one critical hit.

 

Then I don't know how to play a rogue. It would be nice if someone post a guide about how to develop it, talents, equipment, party composition, battle tactics and so on. I'm talking about the melee ones, of course. Because it's hard to believe how a front-line 40 deflection character can manage to survive later on with 110 accuracy foes that can crit your character for 80% of your endurance and 50% of your health.

You can build a rogue more tankier then a fighter or paladin

 

Moon goodlike

Max CON and MIGHT (max con is important)

Dual wield draining weapons (the axe from endless paths is best)

Belt of bountiful healing (or the amulet)

Boots of consecrated ground

 

With your huge health pool that is constantly getting topped up from your draining weapons that are doing enormous damage and enhanced by the belt you will be very tanky. High might will also boost all of your healing including draining, boots and moon godlike aura.

 

A bit to tanky actually , when I built this rogue I re- rolled him around level 10 because it was almost impossible to die and I felt it was a waste not concentrating the build on doing more damage.

 

No need to position correctly or shadow beyond. Just full on charge anyone head on and they will all die around you while you suck the life out them.

Edited March 19, 2017 by firkraag888

[IamNOOB]

The creator of this topic wrote:
"Chanters suck" OK, I am closing the page now.

[Phenomenum]

 

"Take a walk to the Abbey or Cradgholt and tell me if your rogue can manage to stay alive more than 15 seconds." - you just don't know how to play for rogue.

I had completed the Cragshold on level 12, on POTD with rogue as main char without being knockout. All knockout for rogue is oneshots from casters between 1-8 levels. After 8 level Rogue have enough endurance to survive one critical hit.

 

Then I don't know how to play a rogue. It would be nice if someone post a guide about how to develop it, talents, equipment, party composition, battle tactics and so on. I'm talking about the melee ones, of course. Because it's hard to believe how a front-line 40 deflection character can manage to survive later on with 110 accuracy foes that can crit your character for 80% of your endurance and 50% of your health.

 

I've recorded video.

I was in a hurry, and this is not a perfect battle (thing got messy when spirit and siren showed up), but it's okay, becose we all making some mistakes - i desided to not replay it. In my video rogue is only lvl 10, so no Deathblows, which is sighificantly faster kills enemies.

So the main tactic is: your casters disables backrow casters/ranged mobs, then rogue jump in and take them out; in the meantime your tanks and casters hold the line and do damage for some heavy armored mobs. When rogue's job done, he returns to team and flanking rest of enemies, which already heavily injured.

If you watch video attentively, you see - rogue has killed 5 enemies and no one barely touched her.

Oh, forgot about video, here it is: https://youtu.be/aGcq0PyNumU

P.S. Sorry for quality, i made it for the first time.