Politics 2017 Part 3

[Hurlshort]

What if the nose job is for a deviated septum?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I don't complain, it's either this or nazis/commies.

 

I'll do all 3, the People's Republic of California is pushing transexual surgery for poor people in order to further the National Bolshevik agenda of pushing middle class white families off the beach. Will not accept anything but academic sources or Breitbart as evidence against this.

[Meshugger]

 

Ah, the benefits of living in a society where healthcare is payed by everyone and where squabbles like this are moot. On the other hand, the system benefits most if you drink, smoke, do not exercise and die at the age of 55 since then you have payed more into it than what you have gotten out of it.

 

Somehow I have a hard time viewing "death at the ripe old age of 55" as an outcome to strive for 

 

 

It's considered happiness in the north.

[Gromnir]

another myopic move by the administration

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-22/trump-s-immigration-crackdown-likely-to-bring-lawsuit-flood

 

going big and doing things smart is rare the same.

 

edit: bloomberg has a couple more articles worth reading

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-22/trump-deportation-threats-to-constrict-already-tight-job-market

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-22/why-trump-s-immigration-crackdown-could-sink-u-s-home-prices

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 22, 2017 by Gromnir

[Wrath of Dagon]

Where did they get the millions number? And actually enforcing the law is myopic now, because anti-law groups might sue?

[Gromnir]

Where did they get the millions number? And actually enforcing the law is myopic now, because anti-law groups might sue?

is myopic 'cause there is no infrastructure to handle what is effective a mass deportation.  don't have facilities to house.  don't have any agreement from mexico and other nations 'bout their willingness to accept deportees.  don't have anywhere near the court resources to handle deportation hearings. nor is there any plan for dealing with the economic burdens large number o' deportations will be causing in many industries.  is not simple construction jobs being unfilled, but actual the housing market itself is likely to suffer as a goodly number o' undocumented and documented workers is gonna stop purchasing homes. 

 

and trump already suggested millions.  watch the video referencing job market specific if you can't be bothered to read.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

The priority is still on deporting criminals, so there is no mass deportation. No one is automatically immune now, that's true, but that's what the law says. Edit: Apparently expedited removal applies only to illegals who've been here less than 2 years, and to criminals presumably.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Wrath of Dagon

[Volourn]

'Undocumnted immigrants' ie. illegal immigrants ie. criminals. Citizens need to follow laws o should immigrants. If you are an 'undocumnted' go get your documents. Case closed. There are tons of immigrants who went through legal channels to get their citizenship/visitor documentation. Just. do. it.

 

I mean, in Kanada, we have citizens going to prison/being fined because they caught a couple extra fishes that they were allowed... yet, somehow it is evil to  enforce immigration laws? LMAO

[Gromnir]

and the fact that nobody is safe is precisely why there will be a chilling effect on housing sales.  the fact o' nobody being safe is also why bloomberg and aclu and others is predicting considerable and costly lawsuits as leaving so open is necessarily placing greater pressure on all those new ice agents to meet legal standards which only immigration lawyers and federal judges genuine understand fully.  etc.

 

again, similar to the travel ban (but moreso,) this is not a well-considered move.  the President wants to make a show o' doing something significant, but he is going 'bout it complete wrong and it is gonna be an expensive mistake.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

'Undocumnted immigrants' ie. illegal immigrants ie. criminals. Citizens need to follow laws o should immigrants. If you are an 'undocumnted' go get your documents. Case closed. There are tons of immigrants who went through legal channels to get their citizenship/visitor documentation. Just. do. it.

 

I mean, in Kanada, we have citizens going to prison/being fined because they caught a couple extra fishes that they were allowed... yet, somehow it is evil to  enforce immigration laws? LMAO

No kidding. I posted a few pages ago a woman right here is Tennessee is facing six months in jail and fines for giving horses massage therapy for free because she isn't a veterinarian. But an illegal immigrant can work in the stable the horse lives in, pay no taxes and that's all ok? 

 

Personally I think it's all ridiculous but it's so much worse when the government chooses to hammer some folks but ignore others. I'd say leave everyone alone but failing that how about some consistency. 

[Gfted1]

How do they know how long an illegal immigrant has been here? Weird. Anywho, we should just....*BOOM*...."everyone currently in the country is now a citizen. Heres your SSN, now get to tax payin." Cost us more to root them out and deport them at this point.

[Gromnir]

 

'Undocumnted immigrants' ie. illegal immigrants ie. criminals. Citizens need to follow laws o should immigrants. If you are an 'undocumnted' go get your documents. Case closed. There are tons of immigrants who went through legal channels to get their citizenship/visitor documentation. Just. do. it.

 

I mean, in Kanada, we have citizens going to prison/being fined because they caught a couple extra fishes that they were allowed... yet, somehow it is evil to  enforce immigration laws? LMAO

No kidding. I posted a few pages ago a woman right here is Tennessee is facing six months in jail and fines for giving horses massage therapy for free because she isn't a veterinarian. But an illegal immigrant can work in the stable the horse lives in, pay no taxes and that's all ok? 

 

Personally I think it's all ridiculous but it's so much worse when the government chooses to hammer some folks but ignore others. I'd say leave everyone alone but failing that how about some consistency. 

 

am actual in favor o' reforming undocumented alien policies.  'course the problem isn't simple the executive's desire to make changes.  once again, the President appears to have an unclear notion o' the powers o' the presidency.  just 'cause a piece o' paper is signed, it don't warp reality.  woulda' thought the appeals court taught him a lesson. Congress has apparatus which allows for careful and meaningful deliberation o' problems and it also, in theory, has means o' considering options and solutions to problems. well, at least Congress once had such, but they has kinda voluntarily stepped away from their responsibilities.  

 

am not certain what it is the President is doing with these grand actions which ignore any sorta consideration o' implementation or actual impact.  perhaps trump saw a documentary on fox regarding illegals?  so many illegals. bad. ok, that is kinda a starting point, but where is the actual plan?  leave vague and all you do is guarantee that the courts is gonna smack you 'round, again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malcador]

I don't complain, it's either this or nazis/commies.

Or both.

[Bartimaeus]

What if the nose job is for a deviated septum?

 

Not even that - how about for body dysphoria? It's not as though body dysphoria is only limited to sex changes, so if somebody has extreme enough body dysphoria over their nose...or any other number of things...should the taxpayer pay for that? If body dysphoria is good enough for a sex change, it should be good enough for a "nose job", right? ...In practice, I'm not sure as to the answer of this. The cases like that SHOULD be extremely rare...but that's not the point - it is, as Guard Dog said, the principle of it: what kinds of things should or shouldn't be covered by health insurance, particularly publicly-funded health insurance (or whatever you'd call the equivalent)? Again, I'm not totally sure of the answer to it: it's a very complicated subject and problem.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Bartimaeus

[Guard Dog]

How do they know how long an illegal immigrant has been here? Weird. Anywho, we should just....*BOOM*...."everyone currently in the country is now a citizen. Heres your SSN, now get to tax payin." Cost us more to root them out and deport them at this point.

 

I would not make them citizens. However I would give them work permits. The problem is keeping them illegal not only deprives the community of tax on their wages, it enables exploitation of them because they can't complain. Particularly the agricultural workers are paid less than minimum wage. If you put a stop to treating them as little better than slave labor not only do we gain the benefit of tax dollars, they get a better wage and working conditions, and it because it now costs more to hire and manage them the demand for their services will likely shrink which, long term, will reduce the number of immigrants working here. Three birds with one stone.

[Elerond]

 

What if the nose job is for a deviated septum?

 

Not even that - how about for body dysphoria? It's not as though body dysphoria is only limited to sex changes, so if somebody has extreme enough body dysphoria over their nose...or any other number of things...should the taxpayer pay for that? If body dysphoria is good enough for a sex change, it should be good enough for a "nose job", right? ...In practice, I'm not sure as to the answer of this. The cases like that SHOULD be extremely rare...but that's not the point - it is, as Guard Dog said, the principle of it: what kinds of things should or shouldn't be covered by health insurance, particularly publicly-funded health insurance (or whatever you'd call the equivalent)? Again, I'm not totally sure of the answer to it: it's a very complicated subject and problem.

 

If psychiatrist/s chosen by state tells that best way to ensure person mental well being means that they need nose job then I personally would be okay for state to cover such surgery for their employees from taxes. If state do not trust to recommendations that said doctor/s gives then they of course should replace said doctor/s with new one/s.

 

I mean my principle is that I am not medical professional with enough expertise to judge what is necessary and best way and what is not to ensure somebody's well being, which is why I and so many other people pay to people that have actually studied subject in such extent that they can call themselves as experts. So question should not be what procedures government subsidies for their employees but how critical the need for medical treatment need to be it to be important enough that it will be subsidized. It is also worth to note that one effective way to save in state's health care costs is to minimize need for long term care. So if one nose job will prevent person needing years worth of psychiatric care/medication that has even lower change to work then it would be wasting tax payers money not to give that nose job for that person. Of course there is of course the question should state employees even receive subsidies that other state's residents don't receive.

[Hurlshort]

I would love to see a serious overhaul of the immigration system. All we've really been doing for the last couple decades is throw up roadblocks to citizenship. That seems to be kicking into overdrive under Trump.

[Bartimaeus]

 

 

What if the nose job is for a deviated septum?

 

Not even that - how about for body dysphoria? It's not as though body dysphoria is only limited to sex changes, so if somebody has extreme enough body dysphoria over their nose...or any other number of things...should the taxpayer pay for that? If body dysphoria is good enough for a sex change, it should be good enough for a "nose job", right? ...In practice, I'm not sure as to the answer of this. The cases like that SHOULD be extremely rare...but that's not the point - it is, as Guard Dog said, the principle of it: what kinds of things should or shouldn't be covered by health insurance, particularly publicly-funded health insurance (or whatever you'd call the equivalent)? Again, I'm not totally sure of the answer to it: it's a very complicated subject and problem.

 

If psychiatrist/s chosen by state tells that best way to ensure person mental well being means that they need nose job then I personally would be okay for state to cover such surgery for their employees from taxes. If state do not trust to recommendations that said doctor/s gives then they of course should replace said doctor/s with new one/s.

 

I mean my principle is that I am not medical professional with enough expertise to judge what is necessary and best way and what is not to ensure somebody's well being, which is why I and so many other people pay to people that have actually studied subject in such extent that they can call themselves as experts. So question should not be what procedures government subsidies for their employees but how critical the need for medical treatment need to be it to be important enough that it will be subsidized. It is also worth to note that one effective way to save in state's health care costs is to minimize need for long term care. So if one nose job will prevent person needing years worth of psychiatric care/medication that has even lower change to work then it would be wasting tax payers money not to give that nose job for that person. Of course there is of course the question should state employees even receive subsidies that other state's residents don't receive.

 

 

A reasonable stance. I think how seriously we (the U.S.) treat mental health (or rather, don't treat mental health) factors into this argument a bit. Here in the U.S., we have a lot more of a "your brain and your mental issues are just that - yours" attitude about these kinds of things. For reasons pointed out by many, including you and TrueNeutral et. al., this doesn't seem like the best way to go...and yet, at the same time, I feel like I can sympathize with the mindset of not treating some mental issues as seriously as others...probably because I sometimes have difficulty understanding the WHY behind people so severely affected by body dysmorphia and other issues...but the fact remains that people do, to the best of the people we call experts on the subject's knowledge, appear to be severely affected, and that's probably something we should be treating a little more seriously.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Bartimaeus

[Wrath of Dagon]

'Undocumnted immigrants' ie. illegal immigrants ie. criminals. Citizens need to follow laws o should immigrants. If you are an 'undocumnted' go get your documents. Case closed. There are tons of immigrants who went through legal channels to get their citizenship/visitor documentation. Just. do. it.

 

I mean, in Kanada, we have citizens going to prison/being fined because they caught a couple extra fishes that they were allowed... yet, somehow it is evil to  enforce immigration laws? LMAO

If you as much as pick up an eagle feather in a zoo you could be facing a long prison term. But to the illegals no rules apply, at least until now.

 

am actual in favor o' reforming undocumented alien policies.  'course the problem isn't simple the executive's desire to make changes.  once again, the President appears to have an unclear notion o' the powers o' the presidency.  just 'cause a piece o' paper is signed, it don't warp reality.  woulda' thought the appeals court taught him a lesson. Congress has apparatus which allows for careful and meaningful deliberation o' problems and it also, in theory, has means o' considering options and solutions to problems. well, at least Congress once had such, but they has kinda voluntarily stepped away from their responsibilities.  

 

am not certain what it is the President is doing with these grand actions which ignore any sorta consideration o' implementation or actual impact.  perhaps trump saw a documentary on fox regarding illegals?  so many illegals. bad. ok, that is kinda a starting point, but where is the actual plan?  leave vague and all you do is guarantee that the courts is gonna smack you 'round, again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

The laws about illegally entering the country are all there, there's nothing for Congress to do. Same as alien travel, the President is already authorized to deny visas as he sees fit.

 

 

I would love to see a serious overhaul of the immigration system. All we've really been doing for the last couple decades is throw up roadblocks to citizenship. That seems to be kicking into overdrive under Trump.

There are no "roadblocks" if you're here legally. Legalizing all the illegals without solving the illegal entry problem first will only reward the lawbreakers, and encourage others to break the law.

 

Edit: We're really not all living in the same country any more: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/02/22/chicago-moving-to-name-street-after-faln-terrorist-oscar-lopez-rivera/

Edited February 23, 2017 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gromnir]

 

 

The laws about illegally entering the country are all there, there's nothing for Congress to do. Same as alien travel, the President is already authorized to deny visas as he sees fit.

 

kinda missing the point.  when Congress makes a law, there is a process in place.  the process results in studies conducted and solutions to anticipated problems being formulated.  as bass ackwards as Congress can be, they at least must needs consider the implications o' their actions before they vote and send for President's signature.  sure, sometimes they leave more than a few details vague, seeming anticipating the courts and executive will fill in the gaps, but at least Congress is aware o' what they is (or is not) doing. am not suggesting illegal deportations is a job for Congress.  am contrasting how Congress goes 'bout similar decisions as we has seen from the new chief executive.

 

trump has access to folks who are able to study any number o' esoteric subjects and formulate plans and solutions, but as with his sweden crime flub, he ignores the considerable resources available to him and simple authors doomed or idiotic actions. as a President, it is the height o' foolishness to simple act and then come up with how to make immigration or travel bans or walls work after the fact. the Presidency does not seem to be what trump believes the office to be. 

 

HA! Good Fun! 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Gromnir

[Wrath of Dagon]

ICE and Border Patrol are just going to do what they're doing already, except without all the constraints Obama put on them.

[Gromnir]

obama, the guy who significant increased deportations compared to previous administrations, is the guy who constrained ice and the border patrol? the guy who in spite o' 8 years worth o' steady decrease in illegals coming into the US, nevertheless managed to deport more than 2,400,000 is the President who limited such efforts?

 

okie dokie.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 23, 2017 by Gromnir

[Hurlshort]

WoD doesnt believe in those statistics, which makes this a pretty big waste of time. Only evidence that supports his narrative are applicable.

[Volourn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWcq83GJD4

 

The MSM in a nutshell.

[Gromnir]

WoD doesnt believe in those statistics, which makes this a pretty big waste of time. Only evidence that supports his narrative are applicable.

ah.  shoulda' guessed.

 

well, we will leave, but only after observing how illegals do pay taxes

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-illegal-immigrants-pay-taxes-2012-3

 

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/10/23/myths-half-truths-about-immigration-reform-382855.html

 

and likely will never draw social security benefits they has paid billions (more than a trillion) towards.

 

however, education and medical costs is issues... but not necessarily how folks think.  illegals don't get fed medical benefits as some s'pose, but they still have medical problems.  illegals, much like our indigent population, typical use emergency room medical. by the time an illegal gets desperate enough to seek the medical help they need, is usual serious and emergency rooms is necessarily expensive regardless. billions.

 

education is also a tough issue and worthy o' debate...

 

but again, this ain't a simple issue.  trump talking on sixty minutes 'bout ramping up deportations from obama levels (approx 400,000 per year) so as to get rid o' 2-3 million reveals a lack o' foresight.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps worth reading the forbes article too

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2017/01/28/why-president-trumps-border-wall-is-an-example-of-bad-leadership/#6aafc49a78fd

Edited February 23, 2017 by Gromnir