Character Tier List Discussion

[snapcall]

I am curious if the community agrees with my list and I'm open to other interpretations

 

Perspective: Trying to beat the game from the very start on legendary difficulty. I'm assuming a standard 3-4 person party since I just split the roster into 4-4-3 parties.

 

God Tier: Merisiel, Seelah, Ezren (with add on deck), Amiri

 

Good Tier: Harsk, Lem, Seoni, Lini

 

Weak Tier: Valeros, Kyra, Sajan

Edited February 7, 2017 by snapcall

[Borissimo]

This can be an interesting discussion, but you should specify a couple of things first:

 

1) Where's Seelah? And why is Sajan in there twice?

 

2) What's the party size?

 

Party size matters a lot here. For example, ranking Amiri as "Good (close to top)" is fine for a 2-player party, but I would fight you all day long if you put her anywhere but God tier for a 6-player party.

 

It seems that you have either Seelah or Sajan in the Weak tier, and both of those seem wrong to me. Seelah, with her extra scouting and (essentially) free explores belongs in the God tier. As for Sajan, I could see a case for either Good or God tier for him. Definitely not weak tier, though. He's the best villain-killer in the game and you could really use his monstrous rolls in those scenarios where the combat difficulty checks get completely out of control.

[snapcall]

Hey thanks for the first response Great call on the party size. I went with 4-4-3 for my legendary playthroughs and Sajan was in a party with Amiri, Lem, and Kyra. My problems with Sajan are:

1) he is very weak in the early game because of the unreliable nature of his rolls (recharging a bunch of dice for 1d10 can still lead to him failing checks easily)

2) he hates discarding blessings to help others because it makes his combat even more unreliable when his turn comes up

3) he's basically good for one combat per turn and then spent

 

I personally rate Merisiel and Amiri as the best villain killers and then Seelah and Valeros in a pinch. In my runs I always needed blessings to ensure temporary location closes prior to fighting the villain so I never used Sajan over Amiri. And yes, based on your advice I'll move Amiri back to the first level. I wasn't sure if others would agree so I put her a level below to start.

[Nathan Davis]

Just to point out, give a Sajan a bow...

[Strategy Builder]

Lol @ the ridiculous bow with glove.

 

All of the characters are pretty strong. The only one I can't puzzle out is Sajan, but I hear he's amazing with someone who knows how.

 

It's a mistake to put them in tiers. Harsk for example is terrible solo, but very useful in a party. This sort of tier thing works for something like a 1v1 fighting game, but not for Pathfinder.

[Celedhring]

I don't see the "God" case for Merisiel. She's a slow explorer, and her combat prowess is highly dependent on being alone - which is hard to manage in large groups or towards the end of the scenario, when most locations are closed. Her evade is pretty great though, particularly when talented so you can chose to leave the card on top. But that's about it.

 

Sajan is a strong brawler but "one and done", and his utility is extremely low, even if you go for zen archer. Drunken Master looks fun on paper, but pots are very weak. I tried building a Drunken Master with loads of healing pots so he could recycle his deck like crazy, but it was too many hoops for too little reward.

 

My tier 1 players are Ezren and Sheelah. Amiri jumps there if you do Legenday, I'd say she's mandatory.

Tier 2: Lini, Seoni, Lem, Amiri

Tier 3: Merisiel, Harsk, Kyra

Tier 4: Sajan, Valeros

Edited February 7, 2017 by Celedhring

[aznxknight]

Perhaps you're either using sajan wrong or just don't prefer him. I find him at the top of my list. If half your blessings are combat blessings for him, he'd have no problem. He can cycle his blessings very quickly when you want something else. 2 or 3 healing cards, or better yet, take drunken master and recharge your healing pots for infinite healing cycle and you'd have no problem running out of cards. A +2 to con and an amulet of fortitude for added kicks guarantees your check to recharge the healing potion without banishing it.

 

All characters are hard to use once you start out but if you equal everyone out with all their powers/cards/skills sajan can both be a party helper and a soloist. If he uses all the blessings for other characters and only keeps just 1 combat blessing for himself, what's the difference between him and any other character that explores very slowly, for example: Merisiel, Amiri, Valeros, Harsk, Probably ezren (if you don't have haste)?

Edited February 7, 2017 by aznxknight

[Nym]

Sajan doesn't come along to fight people. He comes along to muleback a crapton of blessings and items. He'll rarely get more than one or two explores per turn, but he's the best all-arounder there is when it comes to helping other characters who're stuck in a bad spot.

Anyhoo, assuming we're talking legendary...

 

Tier 1 (Essential): Seelah

 

Tier 2 (Optimal): Amiri, Ezren, Harsk, Lini, Merisiel, Sajan, Seoni

 

Tier 3 (Sub-optimal): Kyra, Lem, Valeros

 

 

 

[snapcall]

Yes that ended up being my experience as well. Sajan ended up being the blessing bot for most of the run, using Staff of Minor Healing to recharge and stay healthy. He was very unreliable for combat for me though until I buffed his DEX up to max. 

 

Merisiel has some of the strongest combat rolls in the game (you have plenty of room for solo explorations when you 3-4 party each map). Later scenarios have that super annoying condition where any combat will trigger a henchman to attack you; she can save you a lot of grief there. Same with those traps that trigger a battle for everyone, tower, etc. And then she has delay which wins me multiple games just because of how fast it can end the game. My general strategy with her is to explore as fast as possible (multiple Spyglasses, Quill, Codex), delay the main villain, then move everyone out to temp close. Often those kinds of tricks are the only way to beat the harder maps for me since they push the blessings end of game timer so close.

[Eumaios]

I think we should just state our biases up front. I don't like the monk and paladin just 'cause I don't like monks and paladins in my games. On the other hand, I always play a mage if I can, so Ezren will always get the nod. So, with that said....

 

I also don't like the tier system, so I'll just rank the characters.

 

On legendary without switching anyone in later scenarios:

 

Amiri has a great ability to move people, but even starting on legendary without getting good loot on people first, legendary move restrictions are not all that and a bag of chips. They shouldn't be. Anything that makes a character a must have means the design is bad, either from paizo or Obsidian. Still, she can pack a punch, and that's good.

 

Ezren he has his good days and his bad days, but he packs a hell of a punch, keeps the spells cycling, and is key to clearing certain locations really quickly.

 

Harsk is basically the guy who makes everyone shine all the time. Yeah, in tougher scenarios, that means he comes to his own turn devoid or low on cards, but that's because he's meant three or more combat rolls went my way. He is simply the best support character in the game at deck 1-1.

 

Kyra is over-rated on her heals, has low combat utility in melee, and unless she's the only healer in the group, she steals good wisdom divine wisdom combat spells from people who shine better overall. If it weren't for the subtext of her homo-erotic relationship with Meri, she would have no utility in a great game with the sole exception of her undead ability to kill off that undead banshee bitch in deck 2.

 

Lem is an egotistical runt, but he gets to his healing spells and then can keep them on hand readily. Yeah, he's not a great combat closer, but he's vital in some scenarios where card attrition is the name of the game. I love the little guy, even if I don't particularly like his singing.

 

Lini is the best overall check value character in the game. Her animal companions give her increasingly huge boosts for most thing. She falls way short as a reliable source of damage output, but her ability to scry or augury cards to the top or bottom of the deck make that less of an issue.

 

Meri is a good character made great by one thing: evade. Other than that, she's not that great at offense. At least, I get proximate combat scores with other characters with less development and card attrition. I still love the homicidal wench, probably because she reminds me of my first wife. Also, with her dexterity and bumps to close locations later, I do like having her around in most parties.

 

The three dread S's now.

 

Sajan is a monk. The only thematic character I hate is the monk class, so I won't even pretend to give him a fair shake. Haven't played enough to evaluate in any meaningful way.

 

Seelah is a great character. I think her location cycling is over-rated, but I've played with her enough to appreciate ability when I see it. Still think she' mediocre on support, heals, and clutch combat roles, but I can understand why some folks swear by the wench.

 

Seoni... I don't hate her concept. Having played Ezren and Seoni, I think of her as my backup arcane caster, but if I have a 'backup' arcane caster, I'd rather it be Lem. The little runt can cast arcane spells pretty well, can take arcane non-combat checks fairly well, heal, and that ho-hum ability to help character at his location that isn't all that in the early decks is sweet in some tough legendary spots later.

 

 

Finally, Val. I love Val. I didn't use to love the big lug, but here goes: He's got great character in cut scenes. his interplay with Lem is fun. By recharging/reshuffling, he doesn't have to keep a bunch of extra weapons on hand, he's got at least some minimal charisma support, and his combat bonus to characters at his location comes in handy at some of the harder scenarios. Having played both in 4 and 6 character parties, there's no doubt I would take Val over the other melee heavy hitter, Amiri. She can move people, but in the really tough scenarios Val can help his buddies put the hammer on bad guys.

 

I don't think I missed anyone, but I beg pardon if I did.

[polson]

I don't have all the characters, only Merisiel, Kyra, Seoni, Amiri, Lini, Seelah, and Sajan. (Haven't used Sajan yet) I'll give my brief review of the characters I have.

 

(Disclaimer: I use the alt version of Seoni, Amiri, Seelah, and Kyra)

I find Seoni to be the strongest out of all the ones I've used. I use her for every mission, especially legendary. With legendary, if I'm just trying to do it quickly for daily challenges, I run with either Seoni + Merisiel or Seoni + Amiri. Spells automatically recharging is insanely strong, letting her blast away, and augury lets her scout pretty quickly.

 

Amiri is a beast and can basically win any normal combat on her own and extra movement is amazing on legendary.

 

Merisiel is useful for those levels where you need dex or stealth to avoid monsters or to close locations. She explores pretty slowly though. Too many items not enough allies or blessings.

 

Lini seems more like a support character to me, her 1d4+whatever makes her ideal for spamming buffs and recharging them. She's quite weak on her own and requires help from others to win combat. I gave her augury as well and it makes her an extra good scout with recharging animal allies exploring as well.

 

Kyra is situational, but can handle herself better than Lini. A bit slow on the scouting so I gave her an augury to speed things up. Very effective vs undead, but I never see the need to use healing. It's a waste of action economy.

 

Seelah burns through locations pretty quickly. Her damage could be better, and is an overall strong character both on her own and to the party. Just dont expect to acquire any boons from her location. She'll have it closed before you manage to get anything.

 

I would rate the characters I have in this order from best to worst:
1. Seoni
2. Amiri / Seelah

4. Merisiel

5. Lini

6. Kyra

 

Now all I gotta do is save up more gold to unlock all the male characters. I probably shouldn't have spent all my gold on alts.

[Thyraxus]

I find Seoni to be the strongest out of all the ones I've used. I use her for every mission, especially legendary. With legendary, if I'm just trying to do it quickly for daily challenges, I run with either Seoni + Merisiel or Seoni + Amiri. Spells automatically recharging is insanely strong, letting her blast away, and augury lets her scout pretty quickly.

Comparing the two primary arcane spellcasters, i.e. Seoni and Ezren, I have to say, I definitely prefer Seoni.

 

Ezren can really shine in very specific circumstances (like tearing through high-magic locations like the Academy in a single turn) but he suffers from the fact that he has no blessings which makes him very a very slow explorer when the stars are not aligned just right. Also, if you're not careful (or very unlucky) he can be caught pants-down facing a tough combat without an attack or evade spell in hand (or only ones the bane is immune against).

 

Seoni, on the other hand, has blessings for extra explores, can pick up allies on the go much easier for even more due to her high charisma/diplomacy, and never is defenseless because she can always discard a card for an Arcane Blast, although immunities can be a problem with that (several fire-immune monsters and even henchmen in the later scenarios), so getting that Acid Blast powerup may be a good idea to deal with that.

 

So, overall, Ezren has certain undeniable strengths (try playing an Illusionist with Mind Trick and as many Invisibilites as you can get for some fun) but can be hampered if conditions are not optimal, whereas Seoni may provide a little less utility (due to her smaller arsenal of spells and items) but her performance both in combat and exploration speed, while it may have fewer "peaks", overall is a little more consistent and reliable IMO.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Thyraxus

[Nym]

While they often get compared against one and another, Ezren and Seoni fill pretty different roles. She's one of the best rapid explores, and he's the best combat support character. Seoni's mix of blessings, allies, and her always on-hand Blast ability let her ravage location decks. Meanwhile, Ezren's massive hand size means he's always going to have another Wand of Innovation, Swipe, Cloud, or Orb, or something to throw at a combat check.

 

Of course, the correct answer to which is better is simple: take both. After Seelah and Amiri, they'd be my top picks for any legendary party. If you're building a six-man, I'd call those four close to a lock, with only the last to spots being flexible based on preference.

[Edannan]

For me, personally, Seelah is by far the best all-around character. If you focus on spells and blessings for her cards, she has effectively costless, on demand d6+ bonuses to _every_ roll. When Paizo reprinted the character, they nerfed that ability for a reason.  Putting healing spells on her means that she's self-sufficient, and close to immortal, especially if you focus her on Iomedae blessings/favors.

 

I tend to prefer Seoni over Ezren, but they definitely have their niches. Seoni did take a bit of a hit when they nerfed Flasks, but I love her versatility. Also, the ability to roll d12's on blessing of Pharasma makes her shine as support, especially if you have another spellcaster like Lem or Lini stocked on helper spells. She desperately needs healing support, though, so I typically give her the Poog and Father Zantus.

 

Honestly, I have no idea why people dump on Harsk so much. Even without the ability to help others, he's still pretty amazing as a villain killer, especially once he starts rolling d12's when using blessings on his Dex.

[Nym]

Harsk isn't awful, but anything he can do someone else does better. His scouting trait is worse than Seelah or Merisiel's, Ezren provides better combat support, and Amiri is the go-to for stomping villains.

 

So yeah, he's not dead weight, but he is the seventh or eighth best character in a game with a party limit of six.

[Eumaios]

Harsk's sniper ability pumps the bottom line number and he can ditch a ranged weapon in a pinch too. Maybe I'm playing a different game than the people in this thread, but he works pretty well for me. 5 to the bottom line by the end, and the ability to recharge a ranged weapon to increase that damage output even more. I didn't like the idea of Harsk at the beginning, so I had no positive prejudice and he still won me over. Of course, none of them are a must have in any party on any current difficulty, but still...

 

I typically find that Val can take out the trash with his abilities and provide great support in very key legendary scenarios, but Amiri can pack a greater punch. It's costlier than Val's, but it's a matter of whether you're cautious with conserving your deck or not. Val and Amiri can typically take out a lot of monsters without backup or ditching/recharging cards. Even on legendary on the earlier decks. Val doesn't need to worry about keeping extra weapons on hand and so he can recharge in order to get utility cards on hand. Of course, he's got a small hand size, but it's not like Amiri's is big. Amiri more often overkills even with her basement numbers especially on earlier decks even on legendary. Amiri can bury a card for some great buffs, it's true, and there's no doubt those buffs have more utility. However, in terms of combat, she can bury a card to give her 5 to the bottom line. Val's teamwork ability isn't as universally awesome, but there are some legendary scenarios where having 6 to the bottom line combat damage free of charge is truly splendid. I have virtually never felt like Val didn't have the umph to take care of villain or henchman. Yeah, he might only kill the villain twice over instead of five time like Amiri would, but dead is dead.

 

I think one of my prejudices comes from focusing on synergies and finding ways to make them shine. Also, I probably fixate on keeping deck homeostasis much more than I need. I definitely take the cutscenes and dialogue too much into consideration for what is, after all, a card game. Nevertheless, I like my character selection and stand by it.

[Faray]

Interesting thoughts but I disagree with a bit being said. 

 

 

Amiri is strong, but with careful planning you shouldn't waste more than 1-2 turns with moving. Considering how many more explores I get from other characters (Seelah, Erzen, Lini) that's not a lot. Her rage ability requires burying cards which is a painful as well. She’s not bad, and is definitely good, but I wouldn't say she is 'god-tier'. 

 

 

Imo people underestimate Lini. She gets a d4+x bonus to everything easier than Seelah gets her d6. Her ability to recharge animals means any extras allow her to explore fast and often, and she cycles her deck quickly. She may not be the best in combat, but shes great at everything else. Once you get her a weapon or a couple of decent spells she can easily hold her own. 

 

 

Harsk is really good on legendary, espically if you get his alt char. Adding a d4+x bonus to combat checks is huge especially with how much stronger the monsters are on legendary, and unlike Merisel keeping him at a closed location to use his 'be away from the team' ability doesn't hurt you as much. He's also the only dex weapon user to start with weapons. 

 

 

If I had to make my own list (With no particular order for each charter in a rank)

 

 

Carry Tier- Seelah

 

God Tier -Lini, Erzen 

 

Good Tier- Harsk, Seoni, Amiri, Merisel

 

Average Tier- Kyra, Valeros, Lem

 

Weak Tier- Sajan 

Edited February 13, 2017 by Faray

[polson]

If I had to make my own list (With no particular order for each charter in a rank)

 

 

Carry Tier- Seelah

 

God Tier -Lini, Erzen 

 

Good Tier- Harsk, Seoni, Amiri, Merisel

 

Average Tier- Kyra, Valeros, Lini

 

Weak Tier- Sajan 

 

So Lini is both God tier AND average tier?

 

My personal thoughts is Lini starts out extremely average and turns to mini-god tier. She's still not that good in combat, but totally wrecks all other checks.

[Faray]

Think I made the same mistake as the OP and put in 2 characters. The one in average should be Lem. 

[Eumaios]

Lem's a great healer, but he's kind of a jack of all trades master of none. Also, his friend buff, which can help him out later, requires a recharge. I'm currently on an all legendary run with Ezren, Val, Lem, Harsk, Meri, and Lini. Yeah, it's painful to develop Lini at first, but even now she's great for specific situations. For example, even before you buff her wisdom, she's pretty much a lock for that mountain location. Lem is really sucking right now, but his cure cycling is already working well. Good thing. The runt sucks, but he is good for nabbing arcane and divine and whatnot. Aw well, all the things that folks have said, and I have said, have all been true, but somewhere along the line you have to have to forget what tier everyone is and pick the party you enjoy playing and play it.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Eumaios

[brandondash]

Seelah stands alone. :\

[wakasm]

I don't see the "God" case for Merisiel. She's a slow explorer, and her combat prowess is highly dependent on being alone - which is hard to manage in large groups or towards the end of the scenario, when most locations are closed. Her evade is pretty great though, particularly when talented so you can chose to leave the card on top. But that's about it.

 

 

 

The reason why Merisiel is god tier is because of her Evasion.  IMO, the only two god characters are Seelah and Merisiel.  They are the only two with abilities that are just consistently strong or have a high ceiling for situational investment.  

 

I've posted this before but evasion is really strong in Pathfinder.  Arguably the strongest utility action you can do. Rivaled only by scouting or free explore mechanisms, or a few fringe case of future characters that are just nutty. 

 

Being able to reliably set up situations with zero downside is strong.   Here is a list of why she is god tier:

 

• If Merisiel finds the Villian early, it almost guarantees you victory and potentially can save you many many blessings/explores for the entire party since you'll know exactly where they are.  This situation alone has huge payoffs, and happens frequently due to how locations work as a 1/8 or less chance.

• She completely nullifies "summon X before" locations and cards.

• She plows through barriers like they were her living room front door with her disable, stealth, and general dexterity stats

• She can let the party prepare for good boons you really want if she discovers them
• Alternatively, she lets the party prepare for the nasty banes that you don't have an answer to right away  
• She avoids things that would make her lose important cards which gives her flexibility and preparation  
• She can be built very flexible as well (she can take a cure if you want, she can load up on blessings, and recharge them)
• All the while being able to be alone (and getting a bonus for being alone) and one of the best combat characters because she requires so little to be able to fight 

Last but not least, she can do all of this without specific cards! Evasion is free, and her solo ability is a recharge (which also keeps her alive longer!).  This means that even the worst item can do something on her turn, which means she can always for the most part, facecheck into a location. 

 

Here is the very loose math on why Evasion is strong.  Each location has 10 cards.  On average, you'll find a henchmen or villain in 5 explores.   If there are 7 locations, and she  finds the villian first... you literally just saved, on average, 5 explores per location you don't need to permanently close.   That means if you as a group zerg down two locations, leaving 4 locations untouched, and the 1 location that has the villian where they are... and just get people who can temp close the other 4 - that's a net savings of about 20 explores, which is about, on average, 10 turns assuming 2 explores a turn. 

 

Obviously, that's a best case scenario... and some scenarios this won't happen at all, She won't  always find the villian first, but because the net savings potential is so high - she is put into a god tier.  Even if she finds the villian after exploring 2 full locations is still a net savings.  No other characters can do this as consistently, but the basic idea of each location that you can leave unturned because you've located the villian (sometimes from scouting) saves avg 5 encounters an untouched location.   The reason why scouting is sometimes worse is because evasion is reactionary, and for Scouting for the most part is not consistant.  Sure, Harsk can look at the first card at the end of his turn, which helps him prepare, he can't freeze a villian unless she is the top card, where as Merisiel ges her ability for EVERY card she encounters.  

 

Bacause of this, In every set after this one, evasion comes at a price.  All future characters that come either can only evade in certain situations, and/or have to pay something to do it.  That means vanilla Merisiel is even more OP because of this.  It's also why in future content, they've added more situations where things can't be evaded, because of how strong evasion is in Rise of the Runelords.

 

The only downside with her is if you use evade needlessly, because it does net you a loss of explore... but in most cases... the gain in action conversation offsets this greatly.  

Edited February 18, 2017 by wakasm

[Thyraxus]

It's also why in future content, they've added more situations where things can't be evaded, because of how strong evasion is in Rise of the Runelords.

And then they went and created a character like Adowyn who is arguably even more OP, because thanks to her cohort she has a scout ahead power like Seelah/Harsk, only on steroids because she's neither limited on how often nor at what point during her turn she can use it. Basically, she will know what's next in the location deck any time and as often as she wants to, as long as she has her wolf companion (who is trivially easy to keep around due to her powers) and a card to recharge. And scouting it is even more powerful than evasion because it works even on banes that can't be evaded.

 

My guess is that this was at least part of the reason they introduced the "trigger" keyword in the Mummy's Mask set (stuff happening even when you only examine a card without actually encountering it)...

Edited February 28, 2017 by Thyraxus

[wakasm]

 

It's also why in future content, they've added more situations where things can't be evaded, because of how strong evasion is in Rise of the Runelords.

And then they went and created a character like Adowyn who is arguably even more OP, because thanks to her cohort she has a scout ahead power like Seelah/Harsk, only on steroids because she's neither limited on how often nor at what point during her turn she can use it. Basically, she will know what's next in the location deck any time and as often as she wants to, as long as she has her wolf companion (who is trivially easy to keep around due to her powers) and a card to recharge. And scouting it is even more powerful than evasion because it works even on banes that can't be evaded.

 

My guess is that this was at least part of the reason they introduced the "trigger" keyword in the Mummy's Mask set (stuff happening even when you only examine a card without actually encountering it)...

 

 

I played as Adowyn on my first playthrough of Wrath - and she was indeed fun and powerful, but most of the characters in that set are due to the difficulty spike.  

 

To add to her OPness, her scouting also acts like a heal (since you recharge your cards), and there are lots of mounts that let you move locations as well.  And you can use your scouting for other players at your location due to that timing you pointed out. (And she potentially has the ability to evade summoned things, or let others evade as well!).  Plus her combat special abilities can be used with any Cohort, and some scenarios give your group 5.  Guess who gets all the useless ones!?

 

I still think Wrath is the best set just because your characters get a lot of deeper challenges, deeper interactions, and flexiblity with most characters with the Mystic Paths.  However, Adowyn definitely helped shape that opinion a bit on a first playthrough!  

Edited February 28, 2017 by wakasm

[Thyraxus]

I played as Adowyn on my first playthrough of Wrath - and she was indeed fun and powerful, but most of the characters in that set are due to the difficulty spike.

She also was my character when I first played, and I had a lot of fun with her. The other players were so stunned by the stunts she can pull, they almost accused me of cheating, or at least of having read her abilities wrong. My favorite: recharging an entire bad hand (like when the starting draw doesn't have a weapon due to her favorite card being 'Ally') by repeatedly scouting 'in place' (which kind of feels dumb, because basically you're just looking at the exact same card over and over) so I could draw a complete fresh set of cards.

 

you can use your scouting for other players at your location due to that timing you pointed out.

Actually, that didn't even occur to me at the time. Nice catch.