List of Subclasses as we learn about them.

[JerekKruger]

Without ability of being lashed and durganized they are usually not good enough from dps point-of-view. 

 

Indeed. It's perhaps the case that lashes and durganization were too powerful and that it was those that needed to be tuned down, but since they weren't it left Soulbound weapons feeling weak.

 

Tbh, this dagger was a bit over-nerfed. 3% proc rate instantly make it useless to anyone except barbarian. While barb himself (if dps, not interrupt oriented) wants slower and harder-hitting weapons because of Barbaric Blow and HoF. Plus 3% is just unreliable. What's the point in petrifying the enemy group as a setup for Firebug volley if it might not even proc in this fight at all 

 

 

It was a strange one. I'd perhaps agree that 10% was too good on a Barbarian, but was probably about right for other classes.

 

People mostly use this argument when they complain mages aren't game-breakingly powerful in DA2 and DA:I like they were in DA:O. Because it's single-player, so mages should be allowed to nuke everything, right? Except if you want to play a non-mage without feeling like a fifth wheel, I guess.

 

Yeah I'd totally agree that balance is important here. It doesn't require perfect balance, just a sufficiently narrow range between the most powerful classes and the weakest so the player doesn't feel punished for choosing their favourite class based on non-mechanical criteria.

 

As far as soulbound weapons go, I'd say that Durgan Steel and X Lash being so good as to be practically required for a damage-focused character is a problem in itself.

 

 

 

Yeah, I think this is a large part of the problem. It sounds like lashes are being changed a fair bit in Deadfire, and won't be something that can simply be slapped on any weapon, and I hope that if they introduce something like Durgan Steel they'll make it less important and/or allow it to be applied to Soulbound items.

[DigitalCrack]

I dont remember hearing anything in the q&a's specific saying yeah or nay but I wonder if some subclasses will have equipment limitations similar to BG2 kits? I actually liked that some subclasses had equipment limits as a trade off, it made them more interesting to play. for instance the beast tamer only being able to use leather armor and wooden weapons or the wizard slayer not being able to magic trinkets. playing a dual club weilding Beast tamer was some of the most fun I had in BG2 and I would never have played a ranger that way without the limit on the subclass. I know PoE is kind of counter in design to equipment limitations but maybe they could do the inverse which would be bonuses for using certain types of equipment (like priests get in PoE1).

[injurai]

Yeah, I don't really like the idea of item limitation outside of class items and doing sub-class specific items would generate far to much useless equipment. Plus it canonizes certain stat distributions and builds as belonging to particular classes/sub-classes when some fantastic piece of equipment is only usable by one build.

 

Also, equipment bonuses are already tied to talents, which also let's you build as you want. I do acknowledge that it's cool to sort of role play can get builds that seem to synergize around your classes, or maybe even lead you into a setup that you'd never think of yourself. Least you build everyone that same. They already to some extent drop items in a way that suggests who might best make use of things. I think these strong suggestions are a better way to hint at the play what sorts of characters they could be building.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Lack of equipment restrictions is one of Pillars' greatest strengths. Introducing them with subclasses would be a bad idea. We know some of the subclasses will encourage melee combat (like the Assassin and Soulblade), and it's possible there will be range-oriented ones too. But straight-up preventing the usage of certain items is something else.

 

Besides, it's a terrible balancing tool, because the restrictions tend to be either crippling or irrelevant. The Beastmaster and Wizard Slayer are the two worst kits in BG, incidentally. The Kensai's restriction on protective items goes from harsh to easily mitigated, although that has more to do with AC scaling being out of whack.

Edited June 5, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo

[Boeroer]

@Ganrich: cool, you updated the opening post.

 

One thing though:

 

Wizards have two known subclasses now - named "Evoker" and "Illusionist":

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/161286794616/hi-will-dual-class-names-in-deadfire-be-the-same

 

Ciphers have a sublcass called "Ascendant" (same source).

 

I don't think he just made those names up on the fly.

[smjjames]

@Ganrich: cool, you updated the opening post.

 

One thing though:

 

Wizards have two known subclasses now - named "Evoker" and "Illusionist":

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/161286794616/hi-will-dual-class-names-in-deadfire-be-the-same

 

Ciphers have a sublcass called "Ascendant" (same source).

 

I don't think he just made those names up on the fly.

 

Given that he definetly knows people are keeping track of the info as it comes out, it's extremely unlikely he made them up on the fly.

[DigitalCrack]

Yeah, I don't really like the idea of item limitation outside of class items and doing sub-class specific items would generate far to much useless equipment. Plus it canonizes certain stat distributions and builds as belonging to particular classes/sub-classes when some fantastic piece of equipment is only usable by one build.

 

Also, equipment bonuses are already tied to talents, which also let's you build as you want. I do acknowledge that it's cool to sort of role play can get builds that seem to synergize around your classes, or maybe even lead you into a setup that you'd never think of yourself. Least you build everyone that same. They already to some extent drop items in a way that suggests who might best make use of things. I think these strong suggestions are a better way to hint at the play what sorts of characters they could be building.

Yeah thats why I was thinking of subclass specific talents (like the priest diety talents) that give them bonuses to using specific types of weapons and potentially armor. Partly for roleplay and partly to reinforce the change in playstyle the subclass represents compared to the base class. Edited June 5, 2017 by DigitalCrack

[DigitalCrack]

Lack of equipment restrictions is one of Pillars' greatest strengths. Introducing them with subclasses would be a bad idea. We know some of the subclasses will encourage melee combat (like the Assassin and Soulblade), and it's possible there will be range-oriented ones too. But straight-up preventing the usage of certain items is something else.

 

Besides, it's a terrible balancing tool, because the restrictions tend to be either crippling or irrelevant. The Beastmaster and Wizard Slayer are the two worst kits in BG, incidentally. The Kensai's restriction on protective items goes from harsh to easily mitigated, although that has more to do with AC scaling being out of whack.

Never had any trouble with either those class kits. Probably from a power gaming standpoint but I am not a min-maxer type. but yeah thats why I brought up doing something more like the priest deity talents for subclasses as the alternative for PoE "limiting equipment"

[Doppelschwert]

I'm wondering because no ones seemed to mention this, but didn't josh more or less say during the E3 interview with IGN that you choose your multiclass at character creation now, instead of opting into it later?

[Boeroer]

I think he just wanted to point out that new players will be presented with all infos around multicallsing right at the start of character creation. I guess he just explained it in an ambigious way.

 

But even if you would have to choose it at the start it wouldn't change much, would it? Since you can retrain it doesn't really matter.

[JerekKruger]

I'm wondering because no ones seemed to mention this, but didn't josh more or less say during the E3 interview with IGN that you choose your multiclass at character creation now, instead of opting into it later?

 

The way I understood it was that, at the start of the game, you'll be presented with the choice between allowing multiclassing or having it disabled (I assume to keep the levelling up process simpler and quicker). I might be wrong of course.

[injurai]

All I know is that you pick your second class at level 2.

 

I don't get why you would want to disable it before seeing how the game plays out, unless there is a way to enable it again.

 

Seems to me the level up screen can just default to your own and only class, leaving a little button somewhere to multiclass if you so choose. If you already have to classes picked, then it should just prompt you for which class you'll be level at this particular level. Doesn't seem all that complicated, and why permanently hide away options. These games are dense you don't want confusing players away from multiclassing, let them warm up to it over a few levels. Retraining is in the game again right? So no big deal really.

[JerekKruger]

All I know is that you pick your second class at level 2.

 

I don't get why you would want to disable it before seeing how the game plays out, unless there is a way to enable it again.

 

Seems to me the level up screen can just default to your own and only class, leaving a little button somewhere to multiclass if you so choose. If you already have to classes picked, then it should just prompt you for which class you'll be level at this particular level. Doesn't seem all that complicated, and why permanently hide away options. These games are dense you don't want confusing players away from multiclassing, let them warm up to it over a few levels. Retraining is in the game again right? So no big deal really.

 

This would make sense of course, but Doppelschwert's right that the Josh said something about there being an option when you start the game to disable or enable multiclassing.

Edited June 19, 2017 by JerekKruger

[injurai]

I guess that forces you to read up on the trade-offs. I'd probably leave it enabled even if I was single-classing though. Unless that forces you to pick up a second class at level 2. Which I don't think it should.

 

I should be allowed to pick up a second class for the first time at level 12 because I've made some realizations over the course of the game.

[Doppelschwert]

My point is that josh mentioned some time ago (I think on his tumblr, or twitter), that he is not sure yet whether you should decide on a multiclass at character creation, with a fixed progression throughout the game, or if you can just take levels of a second class whenever you want.

 

Just to be clear: the first option means you advance in both classes equally (think dualclassing of AD&D / BG), while the second option means you can decide each lvl which of two classes to take (think multiclassing of D&D3.X / NWN).

 

My impression was that he described the first option in the IGN interview, which seems like a huge loss in build diversity (I'd actually prefer that, since it would probably balance the dual classes much much better).

 

EDIT:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eebUV7hJswk&t=4m45s

 

You're given the option at the beginning that says like you wanna play as a single class character or do you wanna go the multiclass route?

Edited June 19, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[injurai]

My point is that josh mentioned some time ago (I think on his tumblr, or twitter), that he is not sure yet whether you should decide on a multiclass at character creation, with a fixed progression throughout the game, or if you can just take levels of a second class whenever you want.

 

Just to be clear: the first option means you advance in both classes equally (think dualclassing of AD&D / BG), while the second option means you can decide each lvl which of two classes to take (think multiclassing of D&D3.X / NWN).

 

My impression was that he described the first option in the IGN interview, which seems like a huge loss in build diversity (I'd actually prefer that, since it would probably balance the dual classes much much better).

 

Maybe he was toying with implementation ideas at somepoint?

 

As far as I know though, the second option you describe is how it is going to be in Deadfire.

 

The question that remains for me, is more of a usability issue. Will they lock you out of multi-classing if you disable it? I know not the official word on this at all, just going by what I'm hearing here. I can trust myself to keep the multi-classing option open. I'd just hate for other players to get locked out of the option because they at first think they want to roll a pure class. Of course I can see the opposite issue happening were someone feels compelled to pick up a second class only to find it's not working for them. I guess you can't protect the player in the end.

 

A think as long as I can defer picking up a second class until way later I'll be most happy. Though I think I may have read you have to at least pick up that second class at level 2 or something... not sure...

[blotter]

This interview (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/06/15/cannibals-slaves-dead-children-catching-pillars-eternity-ii-e3/) goes into a bit more detail on the subclass mechanics for corpse-eater: 

 

And when it comes to Sawyer and Brennecke’s favorite multi-class and sub-class combinations, one of highlights was the corpse-eater barbarian, which is pretty much exactly what it sounds like. As a corpse-eater barbarian, you have less rage to start with, which is one of the key aspects of being a Barbarian, but then “once an enemy is killed, you just sort of get in there and start digging in,” which boosts that rage counter pretty well.

 

Nothing too surprising, but confirmation of literal corpse-eating action in the game, as opposed to passive boosts triggered by kills, may be illustrative in terms of what subclass abilities may entail overall (e.g., new animations as opposed to new mechanics only, etc.)

[Katarack21]

Gonna keep my PoE 1 character a cipher for my first playthrough, but I suspect a Corpse-Eater may be my second playthrough. That class sounds *fun*.

[SaruNi]

So what will be the official (default) name for a Corpse Eater - Cipher? (One for Corpse Eater - Vanilla Cipher, another for Corpse Eater - Soul Blade, another for Corpse Eater - Ascendant...).

[Katarack21]

Holy crap, Corpse-Eater/Soul Blade...that didn't even occur to me. That sounds like what I'm doing in Deadfire!

[smjjames]

Josh Sawyer said that the multiclass combo name is going to be the same regardless of the subclass, so, corpse eater/ascendant will have the same name as corpse eater/soul blade. Same if it's berserkoid (a barbarian subclass I made up just now)/ascendant as it's still barbarian/cipher.

 

You have to realize that with three subclasses for each class, that multiplies the number of possible combinations by, well, a lot. Better to just use the base class.

Edited June 20, 2017 by smjjames

[Boeroer]

Just to be clear: the first option means you advance in both classes equally (think dualclassing of AD&D / BG)

 

But that's only an assumption. Nobody said that. In former explanations Josh always gave examples of characters who advance in both classes individually so that you could end up with 19 fighter/1 ranger and so on.

 

His statement (if he really meant it this way) can also mean that you only have to decide on your multiclass combination at the start of character creation - so that it's clear what special class(combo) you are throughout the whole game. His statement says nothing about class level advancement. I doubt he changed the whole multiclass mechanics. And I would be angry if they change multiclassing in such a bad way.

 

Maybe it's easier to react to the character in dialogues properly if you already know he's going to be a priest/fighter for example. May help with that strange thing that some people have with these games. "Immersion" or what it's called.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Boeroer

[Quillon]

Maybe it's easier to react to the character in dialogues properly if you already know he's going to be a priest/fighter for example. May help with that strange thing that some people have with these games. "Immersion" or what it's called.

But what if I choose multiclass combo at start and stick with one class all the way to lv20? Would the game still react to my multiclass? Or would it force me to invest in the second chosen class at level 2 or 20?

 

Btw. I seriously doubt game'd react to multiclass names.

[Doppelschwert]

 

Just to be clear: the first option means you advance in both classes equally (think dualclassing of AD&D / BG)

But that's only an assumption. Nobody said that. In former explanations Josh always gave examples of characters who advance in both classes individually so that you could end up with 19 fighter/1 ranger and so on.

 

His statement (if he really meant it this way) can also mean that you only have to decide on your multiclass combination at the start of character creation - so that it's clear what special class(combo) you are throughout the whole game. His statement says nothing about class level advancement. I doubt he changed the whole multiclass mechanics. And I would be angry if they change multiclassing in such a bad way.

 

Maybe it's easier to react to the character in dialogues properly if you already know he's going to be a priest/fighter for example. May help with that strange thing that some people have with these games. "Immersion" or what it's called.

 

 

It's not an assumption on my part, he DID ask whether people prefer the AD&D or D&D3 approach, and linked them explicitly to the time where you pick the second class:

 

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/826978554973859840

 

I'm also pretty sure he said somewhere (maybe SA), that he doesn't mind either way, so he'd like to have some feedback on this.

 

Just because he used the most general examples for explaining the framework doesn't mean he can't use the framework on a restricted progression - the math would stay the same. I'm not saying that the interview proves that they will use the AD&D approach, but neither should anyone assume it is confirmed that we will get the one from D&D3, because afaik, it was never explicitly confirmed since he asked those questions.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[MaxQuest]

Interesting... how will Deadfire handle respec.

Will it allow to change second class, or will it lock main-secondary class combination once picked. Because there might be some x/y optimal builds for early-mid game and x/z for late game.