Josh Sawyer Something Awful PoE2 Posts

[Katarack21]

 

Sawyer is a little bit of an RPG snob/elitist. Over the years I've noticed a real tendency for him to look down on and subtly (or not so subtly) insult people who are real dedicated D&D enthusiasts. He seems to act as if being into obsure RPG systems means he's more knowledgable and a superior gamer.

 

 

I dunno, being familiar with obscure systems beyond "well, I played D&D" is the mark of a more knowledgeable (and arguably superior*) gamer.

 

And I say that as someone who is willing to go to conventions just to play D&D, and whose most commonly used system in the last few years has been 5E (albeit not by a very wide margin).

 

*Inasmuch as every system has a particular set of circumstances it shines in, and familiarity with a wider range of systems allows you to pick the one best suited to the needs of that particular game.

 

It might make one a superior DM, or a superior game designer. That argument I could get behind and see the merits of. But rarely is an individual a dedicated GM-only or a player-only, and those are simply subtypes of gamer, anyway.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I'm fundamentally okay with calling someone a superior gamer if they're better GMs and everything else is being equal.

[Katarack21]

I'm not. Being better at DMing doesn't make you a better gamer, IMHO. It's a small thing, but important enough for me to draw the distinction.

Like with the rest of life, we all make trade offs in some areas to focus on others. DM'ing is a skillset distinct from playing, and being good at one is not more important than being good at the other.

[injurai]

Josh is a better game designer than you, deal with it. He wants to design a game not write a lore pack for dnd.

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

So, he claims that people who love D&D would hate classless system. Must explain why FO is one of my favorite series (not going the Betehsda garbage) even though I'm a D&D fanatic. LMAO Imagine that. People can like different things at once. Not me personally, but I know people who like both CFL and NFL at the same time. (liking CFL is dumb but to each their own).

Sawyer is a little bit of an RPG snob/elitist. Over the years I've noticed a real tendency for him to look down on and subtly (or not so subtly) insult people who are real dedicated D&D enthusiasts. He seems to act as if being into obsure RPG systems means he's more knowledgable and a superior gamer.

 

He's basically a pen&paper hipster.

 

 

Some of us like that though.

 

Oh, a little bit of that isn't a bad thing in a DM and probably isn't a bad quality in a narrative designer, either. I didn't make a value judgment, dudes!

 

[Katarack21]

Blank for misreading and thus misattributed response.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Katarack21

[injurai]

Que? I'm nonplussed. But we aren't talking about me.

[Katarack21]

Sorry. Misread. No, my response to you is that, as I said, these aren't bad traits in a DM or narrative designer and I'm not making value judgements against Josh Sawyer.

Of *COURSE* Josh Sawyer is a better narrative designer than me. I'm not a ****ing narrative designer. I don't have his job and I doubt I could do it. I've never called his capability or talent into question and, you know...I play the **** out of his games.

All I've said is that the guy comes off a little snobby and smug about his RPG's. I know a lot of people who do. Doesn't make them bad people. It was a simple observation.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Katarack21

[stiven]

Josh is a better game designer than you, deal with it. He wants to design a game not write a lore pack for dnd.

Mah, I may object it. He stood strongly on subject on 30 lvl cap in nwn2, while everybody has asked  to do otherwise. Which is what ultimately has hurt nwn2 replayability in a big way. To the degree that there a nwn2 serves which big "selling point" is 40 lvl cap. You probably can find rants threads about lvl cap in google. Same with couple aspects of F:NV - good thing that Obsidian has blocker some Josh decisions at the time (like lvl cap and couple others, which you can easily see from his mod). Too bad they wouldn't restrict him earlier, when he has designed weapons, so we wouldn't ended up with tons literally useless weapons (it seems like idea was to "gun N do more damage but need to be repaired daily and ammo if weigh a tons" but in reality at large players usually just sticks to gun N anyway, and doesn't bother with less powerful but more "reliable" weapons at all). It like you may not to be a good singer, or has ability to sing a song at all, but yet you still can feel a difference between good live show of your favored band, and the bad live show when they may be not in a shape or has technical difficulties.

 

but honestly, i just wanna to push you fanboy with your "Josh is designer god, and anyone who is not agree with him is scum", trololololololo xD

[Tigranes]

Level 40 is one of those things a specific subset of players want, and it would be plain false to suggest it hurt replayability for everybody. And a lot of people liked Sawyermod (not all). Just sounds like a bunch of "i don't like it"s.

 

Couldn't care less about Josh Sawyer or what he eats for breakfast or whether he sounds 'snobby'. All that matters is is the game, as a product of dozens of people, any good. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Tigranes

[Katarack21]

Level 40 is one of those things a specific subset of players want, and it would be plain false to suggest it hurt replayability for everybody. And a lot of people liked Sawyermod (not all). Just sounds like a bunch of "i don't like it"s.

 

Couldn't care less about Josh Sawyer or what he eats for breakfast or whether he sounds 'snobby'. All that matters is is the game, as a product of dozens of people, any good. 

This was about the response I expected from most sane people, to be honest.

[Greensleeve]

What Tigranes said. And honestly, I think F:NV is one of the best designed games ever. 

[Katarack21]

What Tigranes said. And honestly, I think F:NV is one of the best designed games ever. 

 

And I'd honestly say the same about Pillars of Eternity. The games amazing as hell. There's a reason I've clocked over 500 hours.

[injurai]

I didn't know people liked PoE around these parts.

[Blarghagh]

Man makes some extremely loved games > Man makes handful of decisions unpopular among a couple of people super passionate about games that man made > Man is bad game maker. I love it!

[Katarack21]

I didn't know people liked PoE around these parts.

I donated the first time and I donated again. The game is amazing, and Josh Sawyer makes good games. Sometimes he makes bad calls, but that's part of why it works so well as a collaborative process.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Katarack21

[stiven]

couple of people

Lol, don't need be so defensive trying decrease numbers of people who doesn't liked lvl cap in nwn2. Low level cap has killed nwn2, it is simple fact. What the point in replaying the game if all the goodies is on lvl 21+ where it is too late to use those bad ass epic feats since OC is lvl 20 max cap, and MoB has epic enemies which doesn't sweat over your DC30+ for spells? 

 

Also i hasn't said "Josh is a bad designer" I personally has no big (but i can write an esee about a little ones) issue with any of Josh decisions and i had played his mod. But over a time i start to get this "Arty`sh elitist-i-know-better" kind of vibe from the games which he has designed. Simple put - there not so many game companies which developed complex rpg. nowadays, and im would get all what i can from Obsidian cRPG products, but...well.... ok.... lets say that you like a cheese, and Obsidian is a good restaurant which served a good tasty cheese food...then Josh would be a little bit angry`ish French Chef in this restaurant, who would demand from you to eat his food in "proper ways", and would deny you a wine which you like, if it is not a proper sort of wine to your current cheese. But you still goin to like this restaurant and return there again, just because it is a pretty much the only one restaurant who is still serve decent cheese food. Sorry guys i hasn't meant to offend you, cause i wan't aware that if you like Obsidian rpgs then you automatically must accept all of Josh opinions, which is seems like a case with some of you guys

[illathid]

 

couple of people

 

Lol, don't need be so defensive trying decrease numbers of people who doesn't liked lvl cap in nwn2. Low level cap has killed nwn2, it is simple fact. What the point in replaying the game if all the goodies is on lvl 21+ where it is too late to use those bad ass epic feats since OC is lvl 20 max cap, and MoB has epic enemies which doesn't sweat over your DC30+ for spells? 

 

Also i hasn't said "Josh is a bad designer" I personally has no big (but i can write an esee about a little ones) issue with any of Josh decisions and i had played his mod. But over a time i start to get this "Arty`sh elitist-i-know-better" kind of vibe from the games which he has designed. Simple put - there not so many game companies which developed complex rpg. nowadays, and im would get all what i can from Obsidian cRPG products, but...well.... ok.... lets say that you like a cheese, and Obsidian is a good restaurant which served a good tasty cheese food...then Josh would be a little bit angry`ish French Chef in this restaurant, who would demand from you to eat his food in "proper ways", and would deny you a wine which you like, if it is not a proper sort of wine to your current cheese. But you still goin to like this restaurant and return there again, just because it is a pretty much the only one restaurant who is still serve decent cheese food. Sorry guys i hasn't meant to offend you, cause i wan't aware that if you like Obsidian rpgs then you automatically must accept all of Josh opinions, which is seems like a case with some of you guys

I literally can't understand your problem with level cap in NWN2. I've played it and MotB 10-15 times each and the level cap was never a problem. You didn't like the level cap, some other people didn't as well, but without hard statistics that's all that can really be said about it. It might be a minority, it might be a majority, but I have no respect for those that try to presume wide acceptance of their own beliefs without the ability to prove it.

[Katarack21]

 

 

couple of people

Lol, don't need be so defensive trying decrease numbers of people who doesn't liked lvl cap in nwn2. Low level cap has killed nwn2, it is simple fact. What the point in replaying the game if all the goodies is on lvl 21+ where it is too late to use those bad ass epic feats since OC is lvl 20 max cap, and MoB has epic enemies which doesn't sweat over your DC30+ for spells?

 

Also i hasn't said "Josh is a bad designer" I personally has no big (but i can write an esee about a little ones) issue with any of Josh decisions and i had played his mod. But over a time i start to get this "Arty`sh elitist-i-know-better" kind of vibe from the games which he has designed. Simple put - there not so many game companies which developed complex rpg. nowadays, and im would get all what i can from Obsidian cRPG products, but...well.... ok.... lets say that you like a cheese, and Obsidian is a good restaurant which served a good tasty cheese food...then Josh would be a little bit angry`ish French Chef in this restaurant, who would demand from you to eat his food in "proper ways", and would deny you a wine which you like, if it is not a proper sort of wine to your current cheese. But you still goin to like this restaurant and return there again, just because it is a pretty much the only one restaurant who is still serve decent cheese food. Sorry guys i hasn't meant to offend you, cause i wan't aware that if you like Obsidian rpgs then you automatically must accept all of Josh opinions, which is seems like a case with some of you guys

I literally can't understand your problem with level cap in NWN2. I've played it and MotB 10-15 times each and the level cap was never a problem. You didn't like the level cap, some other people didn't as well, but without hard statistics that's all that can really be said about it. It might be a minority, it might be a majority, but I have no respect for those that try to presume wide acceptance of their own beliefs without the ability to prove it.

This is excact argument is as old as NWN2. Edited February 24, 2017 by Katarack21

[Ganrich]

Technically, the complaining about the NWN2 level cap would be just as old an argument.

[Katarack21]

The back-and-forth about that subject is what I was talking about, actually.

[Gromnir]

josh don't need Gromnir to defend him, and it is always weird when we do so as we has been so critical o' him at times.

 

*shrug*

 

a willingness to point out shortcomings in game systems is perceived as josh elitism.  similarly, a kinda cold-blooded approach to exposing bad arguments o' those advocating alternative game systems has resulted in the perception o' josh brashness or rudeness.  we has seen josh say plenty positive 'bout d&d, though only 3.0 and later editions.  in fact, is more than a few folks who complained during poe development 'bout s'posed attempts by josh to turn poe, a s'posed homage to infinity engine games, into d&d 4.0.  but for those advocating per kill xp, josh weren't gonna pretend as if people were making wonderful defenses o' a d&d/ie staple when they were not.  'course if it makes you feel better, past josh were far less diplomatic than he is today.  

 

obvious initial hurdle:  d&d is a class system.  many folks do not like class-based systems. josh is not a fan of class-based rpgs.

 

level caps?

 

okie dokie.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katarack21]

"a willingness to point out shortcomings in game systems is perceived as josh elitism."

Oh, no. I'll point out the flaws of D&D and other class-based systems all day long. It's a desire to minimize the influences of pretty much every well-known mainstream game and system combined with a general tendency to dismiss the concepts, ideas, and tropes of those systems.

[Gromnir]

"a willingness to point out shortcomings in game systems is perceived as josh elitism."

 

Oh, no. I'll point out the flaws of D&D and other class-based systems all day long. It's a desire to minimize the influences of pretty much every well-known mainstream game and system combined with a general tendency to dismiss the concepts, ideas, and tropes of those systems.

as already stated, josh has frequent advocated aspects of d&d editions post 2.0.  and again, there were common (unfair) criticisms o' josh attempting to turn poe into d&d 4.0.  as such, your perceived marginalization by josh does not align with our observations or the consensus feedback o' much o' the poe beta folks.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 24, 2017 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

"And I'd honestly say the same about Pillars of Eternity. The games amazing as hell. There's a reason I've clocked over 500 hours."

 

FO:NV is 100x better than PE. It's not even close. And, that says a lot considering PE has the advantage of DWARVES.