Politics 2017

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 

Also I love how your country mouse is uneducated. I wouldn't cast too many aspersions if I were you. Trump's victory has less to do with his own merits than being the best of nothing but bad choices. I think most of the country mice would agree. 

 

like it or not

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

 

but yeah, even trump voters didn't necessarily like him so much as they hated hillary clinton.

 

as to the Court, possible the only positive we see from trump's election is we will are more likely to see replacement Justices who favor judicial restraint.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Presidents come and go. A Supreme Court Justice can f--k you decades.

[Agiel]

Thoughts from Philip Roth, for my money the finest American author still living today (though he has retired from writing), on the Trump presidency and its parallels with his novel, the Plot Against America:

 

 

 

Philip Roth Emails on Trump

In 2004, the writer published “The Plot Against America,” about an election that upends the country. Has it happened here? 

 

In  2004, Philip Roth published “The Plot Against America.” The four main characters of the novel, which takes place between June, 1940, and October, 1942, are a family of American Jews, the Roths, of Newark—Bess, Herman, and their two sons, Philip and Sandy. They are ardent supporters of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, but, in Roth’s reimagining, Roosevelt loses his bid for a third term to a surprise Republican candidate—the aviator Charles Lindbergh—whose victory upends not only politics in America but life itself.

 

The historical Lindbergh was an isolationist who espoused a catchphrase that Donald Trump borrowed for his Presidential campaign, and for his Inaugural Address: “America First.” The fictional Lindbergh, like the actual Trump, expressed admiration for a murderous European dictator, and his election emboldened xenophobes. In Roth’s novel, a foreign power—Nazi Germany—meddles in an American election, leading to a theory that the President is being blackmailed. In real life, U.S. intelligence agencies are investigating Trump’s ties to Vladimir Putin and the possibility that a dossier of secret information—kompromat—gives Russia leverage with his regime.

 

Roth wrote in the Times Book Review that “The Plot Against America” was not intended as a political roman à clef. Rather, he wanted to dramatize a series of what-ifs that never came to pass in America but were “somebody else’s reality”—i.e., that of the Jews of Europe. “All I do,” he wrote, “is to defatalize the past—if such a word exists—showing how it might have been different and might have happened here.”

 

Last week, Roth was asked, via e-mail, if it has happened here. He responded, “It is easier to comprehend the election of an imaginary President like Charles Lindbergh than an actual President like Donald Trump. Lindbergh, despite his Nazi sympathies and racist proclivities, was a great aviation hero who had displayed tremendous physical courage and aeronautical genius in crossing the Atlantic in 1927. He had character and he had substance and, along with Henry Ford, was, worldwide, the most famous American of his day. Trump is just a con artist. The relevant book about Trump’s American forebear is Herman Melville’s ‘The Confidence-Man,’ the darkly pessimistic, daringly inventive novel—Melville’s last—that could just as well have been called ‘The Art of the Scam.’ ”

 

American reality, the “American berserk,” Roth has noted, makes it harder to write fiction. Does Donald Trump outstrip the novelist’s imagination?

 

Roth replied, “It isn’t Trump as a character, a human type—the real-estate type, the callow and callous killer capitalist—that outstrips the imagination. It is Trump as President of the United States.

 

“I was born in 1933,” he continued, “the year that F.D.R. was inaugurated. He was President until I was twelve years old. I’ve been a Roosevelt Democrat ever since. I found much that was alarming about being a citizen during the tenures of Richard Nixon and George W. Bush. But, whatever I may have seen as their limitations of character or intellect, neither was anything like as humanly impoverished as Trump is: ignorant of government, of history, of science, of philosophy, of art, incapable of expressing or recognizing subtlety or nuance, destitute of all decency, and wielding a vocabulary of seventy-seven words that is better called Jerkish than English.”

 

Roth retired from writing at seventy-seven, but, given Trump’s threats to muzzle journalism that is critical of him, what role does he see for American writers of today?

 

“Unlike writers in Eastern Europe in the nineteen-seventies, American writers haven’t had their driver’s licenses confiscated and their children forbidden to matriculate in academic schools. Writers here don’t live enslaved in a totalitarian police state, and it would be unwise to act as if we did, unless—or until—there is a genuine assault on our rights and the country is drowning in Trump’s river of lies. In the meantime, I imagine writers will continue robustly to exploit the enormous American freedom that exists to write what they please, to speak out about the political situation, or to organize as they see fit.”

 

Many passages in “The Plot Against America” echo feelings voiced today by vulnerable Americans—immigrants and minorities as alarmed by Trump’s election as the Jews of Newark are frightened by Lindbergh’s. The book also chronicles their impulse of denial. Lindbergh’s election makes clear to the seven-year-old “Philip Roth” that “the unfolding of the unforeseen was everything. Turned wrong way around, the relentless unforeseen was what we schoolchildren studied as ‘History,’ a harmless history, where everything unexpected in its own time is chronicled on the page as inevitable. The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic.”

 

Asked if this warning has come to pass, Roth e-mailed, “My novel wasn’t written as a warning. I was just trying to imagine what it would have been like for a Jewish family like mine, in a Jewish community like Newark, had something even faintly like Nazi anti-Semitism befallen us in 1940, at the end of the most pointedly anti-Semitic decade in world history. I wanted to imagine how we would have fared, which meant I had first to invent an ominous American government that threatened us. As for how Trump threatens us, I would say that, like the anxious and fear-ridden families in my book, what is most terrifying is that he makes any and everything possible, including, of course, the nuclear catastrophe.”

[Calax]

It's prudence, not fear. We see what's happening in Europe. A country's first responsibility is always its own citizens.

That's the sort of argument that wears away at any and all civil liberties in regards to privacy. It's why the public has gone from "you can't search me" to "Why don't you let them search you if you've nothing to hide." 

 

At a certain point the "edge cases" become the majority and soon the migrations that made America "great" in the first place will be dead because only England, Germany, and Japan can travel to the US, everyone else is a magical danger to us.

[Meshugger]

Was the United States a nation based on fear until 1965?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

[Barothmuk]

It's a philosophical question between nominalism and realism.

 

In nominalistic world of ideology, there is only power to enforce the ideals but they have no intrinsic value in themselves; as in there is no objective measurement on one is better than the other. When taken to it's logical end, there is no love, truth or beauty as they are just accidents based on random chemical reactions in a world of chaos. Realism however recognizes that there are universals, like archetypes found in civilizations who have had no contact with each other in the world. Like god(s), family, solidarity, adultery, father-figures and mother-figures. These in turn are manifested as virtues like bravery, valor, good, evil, loyalty and so on, which are slightly different in different communities and ethnical groups, but still universal values in themselves. Law and justice is a direct consequence of such.

You haven't explained how your "higher principles" aren't just another ideological framework. Edited January 29, 2017 by Barothmuk

[BruceVC]

 

It's prudence, not fear. We see what's happening in Europe. A country's first responsibility is always its own citizens.

That's the sort of argument that wears away at any and all civil liberties in regards to privacy. It's why the public has gone from "you can't search me" to "Why don't you let them search you if you've nothing to hide." 

 

At a certain point the "edge cases" become the majority and soon the migrations that made America "great" in the first place will be dead because only England, Germany, and Japan can travel to the US, everyone else is a magical danger to us.

 

Guys the reality is 30 % of Latinos voted for Trump, he claimed he would build the wall and make Mexico pay for it, I always said Mexico would never pay

 

But now the USA  has to pay for it, anyway I doubt it will make a difference as obviously the drugs will still flow but illegal immigration will be reduced. In SA  we have a major issue with millions of people from other economically broken African illegally entering SA as we  have NO  control of our borders, its created expected but unfair criticism towards these other black people who are called " foreigners " . My loyalty is to SA and our government is unable or incapable  of dealing with this problem but the truth is  we wish we could build a wall as this unsustainable for us 

 

So I am not being a hypocrite now but I can understand the Trump wall

 

And those 6 Muslim countries being banned are very problematic and hotbeds for extremism, you guys in the USA are actually lucky 

 

We have major issues with Al-Shabaab in Somalia killing people and killing any person who is not Sunni Muslim 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-15336689

 

These extremists are utterly brutal and linked to ISIS, the same groups exist in all those other countries. Its amazing how the Muslim community SA refuse to exist 9/11 happened ....anyway you guys in the USA ironically should be happy

 

It would only be discrimination if all Muslim countries were banned 

[Gfted1]

After we finish soiling ourselves with outrage, I wonder what that ban would mean in real-world numbers. What's the annual immigration quota for those seven countries? And what % of the quota is normally filled annually?

[BruceVC]

After we finish soiling ourselves with outrage, I wonder what that ban would mean in real-world numbers. What's the annual immigration quota for those seven countries? And what % of the quota is normally filled annually?

Gfted1 trust me when I tell you have no reason to feel the USA is being unfair, none of these countries are able to vet anyone who gets on planes and wants to fly anywhere. This alone and the fact we know all these countries export extremism should be more than enough reason to ban them

 

Yes people seem shocked but again if we could do the same in Africa we would ....read these links to see what they have done

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/22/world/meast/kenya-mall-al-shabaab-analysis/index.html

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-27/al-shabaab-attacks-kenya-army-base-in-somalia-claims-51-killed

 

http://www.france24.com/en/20161025-kenya-somalia-shabaab-attacks

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/al-shabaab-attacks-kenya-hotel-175506615.html

 

http://allafrica.com/stories/201701270456.html

[Elerond]

After we finish soiling ourselves with outrage, I wonder what that ban would mean in real-world numbers. What's the annual immigration quota for those seven countries? And what % of the quota is normally filled annually?

 

Total number of Iranian descents in USA is about 1 million (estimate 2016).

Total number of people with Somali ancestry living in USA is about 200000 (census data 2012)

Total number of Syrian descents in USA is about 157000 (census data 2005)

Total number of Sudanese descents in USA is 42,214 (census data 2013)

Total number of Iraqi descents in USA is about 150000 (census data 2015)

Total number of Libyan descents in USA is about 9000 (census data 2012)

Total number of Yemeni descents in USA is about 40000 (census data 2014)

 

Can't say what annual numbers are, but not probably that high that total ban would add more security compared to security vetting and visa(+green card) process that was done before it.

[Gfted1]

I'm not actually worried about getting shot up by bad guys. I'm wondering, literally, how many honest immigrants from those seven countries would be temporarily negatively affected by such a ban/vetting process?

 

Aside, I do honestly wonder why we haven't suffered more organized attacks like those linked. Guns are a dime a dozen around here. How is it there aren't more mooks running into public places and causing havoc?

 

EDIT: Ninjad'. Thanks Elerond.

[Elerond]

It seem that this dangerous citizen of UK, but who is ex-Somalia fears that his return to US will also be denied

https://www.facebook.com/MoFarahGold/posts/1369028299785195

 

Mo Farah

 

On 1st January this year, Her Majesty The Queen made me a Knight of the Realm. On 27th January, President Donald Trump seems to have made me an alien.
I am a British citizen who has lived in America for the past six years - working hard, contributing to society, paying my taxes and bringing up our four children in the place they now call home. Now, me and many others like me are being told that we may not be welcome. It’s deeply troubling that I will have to tell my children that Daddy might not be able to come home - to explain why the President has introduced a policy that comes from a place of ignorance and prejudice.
I was welcomed into Britain from Somalia at eight years old and given the chance to succeed and realise my dreams. I have been proud to represent my country, win medals for the British people and receive the greatest honour of a knighthood. My story is an example of what can happen when you follow polices of compassion and understanding, not hate and isolation.

 

 

EDIT: Removed alternative facts that slipped in. As Farah don't anymore have Somalian citizenship and he has not yet tried to enter to USA after the ban.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Elerond

[redneckdevil]

I'm not actually worried about getting shot up by bad guys. I'm wondering, literally, how many honest immigrants from those seven countries would be temporarily negatively affected by such a ban/vetting process?

 

Aside, I do honestly wonder why we haven't suffered more organized attacks like those linked. Guns are a dime a dozen around here. How is it there aren't more mooks running into public places and causing havoc?

 

EDIT: Ninjad'. Thanks Elerond.

who woulda thought that the image of gun loving gun toting citizens in a country that holds the 2nd amendment just as highly (if not more so with quite a few people than the 1st) would have a psychological effect on people outside our country lol. Edited January 29, 2017 by redneckdevil

[redneckdevil]

Here's something that I think is missing from a lot of reports, what countries exactly did the people who have attacked America and American institutes go and travel and be influenced/trained/indoctrinated/supplied visit?

[Gfted1]

who woulda thought that the image of gun loving gun toting citizens in a country that holds the 2nd amendment just as highly (if not more so with quite a few people than the 1st) would have a psychological effect on people outside our country lol.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, I don't think mooks are afraid that the general US citizen is armed. They mostly plan on dying anyway. And I don't think we've got some secret method for intercepting plots. The "war on terror" has been going on for decades so it seem like someone would have bloodied our noses again by now. What could it be?

[BruceVC]

It seem that this dangerous dual citizen of UK and Somalia is also denied from entering to US

https://www.facebook.com/MoFarahGold/posts/1369028299785195

 

Mo Farah

 

On 1st January this year, Her Majesty The Queen made me a Knight of the Realm. On 27th January, President Donald Trump seems to have made me an alien.

I am a British citizen who has lived in America for the past six years - working hard, contributing to society, paying my taxes and bringing up our four children in the place they now call home. Now, me and many others like me are being told that we may not be welcome. It’s deeply troubling that I will have to tell my children that Daddy might not be able to come home - to explain why the President has introduced a policy that comes from a place of ignorance and prejudice.

I was welcomed into Britain from Somalia at eight years old and given the chance to succeed and realise my dreams. I have been proud to represent my country, win medals for the British people and receive the greatest honour of a knighthood. My story is an example of what can happen when you follow polices of compassion and understanding, not hate and isolation.

These things happen, Im sure he will be let in. Somalia hasn't had a functional government for 25 years !!! The AU if it had political will and interest could have defeated Al-Shaab by now.....but no so the AU just lets Somalia stay broken and take no responsibility 

 

I saw an interview where the CNN team now were  interviewing Trump and seemed to question his opinion where he said " Muslims hate us " ....the CNN team didnt believe it

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/03/09/trump-i-think-islam-hates-us/?utm_term=.cc957b577be8

 

But it is true in many cases, as I was saying in SA the Muslism community are blaming the USA for 9/11 and ignoring the global reality of Islamic extremism.

 

Its gets irritating when I travel to the ME and have to be subjected to anti-USA sentiment and how the USA is to blame for everything. This is basically a verbal attack on the West so honestly why do all these Muslims want to immigrate to the West?

 

Why dont the Sunni Muslim countries accept some of them?

[Elerond]

 

 

Why dont the Sunni Muslim countries accept some of them?

 

 

Because they are allies of USA and were just forward thinkers in policies that USA will establish?

[BruceVC]

Here's something that I think is missing from a lot of reports, what countries exactly did the people who have attacked America and American institutes go and travel and be influenced/trained/indoctrinated/supplied visit?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/us/politics/trump-syrian-refugees.html

 

All these countries have ISIS groups, so its a valid preventative measure, are you worried this making the USA look bad ?

 

I support the USA in basically everything because it represents the foundation of Western ideology, if this was really a bad idea I would tell you

 

 

 

who woulda thought that the image of gun loving gun toting citizens in a country that holds the 2nd amendment just as highly (if not more so with quite a few people than the 1st) would have a psychological effect on people outside our country lol.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, I don't think mooks are afraid that the general US citizen is armed. They mostly plan on dying anyway. And I don't think we've got some secret method for intercepting plots. The "war on terror" has been going on for decades so it seem like someone would have bloodied our noses again by now. What could it be?

 

Since the Bush administration and the advancements around NSA technology like Prism and the alliances with ME countries like Saudi the USA has prevented many attacks on the USA. You just dont know about them 

 

But no one can really stop homegrown or lone wolf attacks like the Boston marathon bombing 

[Elerond]

 

Here's something that I think is missing from a lot of reports, what countries exactly did the people who have attacked America and American institutes go and travel and be influenced/trained/indoctrinated/supplied visit?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/us/politics/trump-syrian-refugees.html

 

All these countries have ISIS groups, so its a valid preventative measure, are you worried this making the USA look bad ?

 

 

 

 

Also Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Malaysia and France have ISIS groups.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Why dont the Sunni Muslim countries accept some of them?

 

 

Because they are allies of USA and were just forward thinkers in policies that USA will establish?

 

 dont get cheeky young man, you know how much you will enjoy a good spanking 

 

But Elerond the double standards needs to stop, no Sunni country in the ME has taken any refugees and even the Syrians that flee Syria to there neighbours dont get accepted as citizens unless they can pay which most cant ....so they live in these terrible and inhuman refugee camps, they cant leave but they are safe at least 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/05/world/middleeast/zaatari-refugee-camp-in-jordan-evolves-as-a-do-it-yourself-city.html

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/lebanon-camps-syria-refugees-slam-trump-bar-134027325.html

[algroth]

In light of these deportations and immigration bans, I feel this article (and the film it is based on) bears even greater weight:

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/children-of-men-alfonso-cuaron-c-v-r.html

Edited January 29, 2017 by algroth

[BruceVC]

In light of these deportations and immigration bans, I feel this article bears even greater weight:

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/children-of-men-alfonso-cuaron-c-v-r.html

Hi algoth Sorry I haven't said hello until now 

 

What are your concerns, please be very honest 

[Hurlshort]

Was the United States a nation based on fear until 1965?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

 

We were just incredibly racist back then. It got a bit better in 1965. 

[algroth]

 

In light of these deportations and immigration bans, I feel this article bears even greater weight:

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/children-of-men-alfonso-cuaron-c-v-r.html

Hi algoth Sorry I haven't said hello until now 

 

What are your concerns, please be very honest 

 

Hey Bruce! I don't see what isn't concerning about the way things have gone in the Trump administration of yet. You have the president to the most powerful nation in the world acting as an autocrat with complete disregards for human rights, facts, science, or the very values that his country's based on. His combative, disdainful attitude to everyone else both in and outside the US is only bound to cretive further conflict, not lessen it.

[BruceVC]

 

Was the United States a nation based on fear until 1965?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

 

We were just incredibly racist back then. It got a bit better in 1965. 

 

Hurlshot I know you have put real effort into understanding the Muslim community in the USA, this wont impact the local Muslim community in the USA.  I have always respected that about your religious beliefs. If I was a Christian I would follow your example...look at this in SA, how do we deal with this? This pastor spews hate and then for 2 days some black Christians then feel they need to phone in on radio stations and basically quote the  bible and how homosexuality is a sin....its against our constitution  but how do we say this?

 

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/grace-bible-church-trends-after-homophobic-comments-20170122

Edited January 29, 2017 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

 

In light of these deportations and immigration bans, I feel this article bears even greater weight:

 

http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/children-of-men-alfonso-cuaron-c-v-r.html

Hi algoth Sorry I haven't said hello until now 

 

What are your concerns, please be very honest 

 

Hey Bruce! I don't see what isn't concerning about the way things have gone in the Trump administration of yet. You have the president to the most powerful nation in the world acting as an autocrat with complete disregards for human rights, facts, science, or the very values that his country's based on. His combative, disdainful attitude to everyone else both in and outside the US is only bound to cretive further conflict, not lessen it.

 

Okay, its several things. Where do you live if you dont mind me asking ?