The US Election, Part XI

[Wrath of Dagon]

Do you know what stereotyping is? You claim women make better parents than men. I showed you that isn't necessarily the case. It has also been shown REPEATEDLY in FACTs that children without a father are worse off BY FAR than those with a father. But, hey, go spin your nonsense about how males are horrible parents who deserve to thrown into wars after giving up their sperm so they can take a bullet in the head so mothers like the one in the link can 'take care' of the kids. LMAO

So you're judging billions of women by the action of one sick woman? I never said all women are better parents than all men, which is all your argument disproves. And I didn't make the claims you say I did, you need to learn about straw man in addition non sequitur.

[imaenoon]

 

Calisodom, that's clever.  I suppose we can put together some Texas insult that combines heart disease with drive-through liquor and gun stores.

Texfatass?

 

I think it's time for an epic rap battle. California versuuuuuuusssss Texas!

 

I can't figure out if the hate is an act or for real, but the debate is entertaining. Probably not much to do with the US election, but neither is women serving in combat roles and we're talking about that. :shrug: The way of threads, I suppose.

 

Meanwhile, I don't think Trump's phone conversation with Tsai Ing-wen is worth the loss of breath on the part of the press. However, I think his threat about punitive taxes on US corporations moving around their operations is tough. I haven't read the specifics, and I'm not sure they exist, but if he's going protectionist instead of just cutting taxes on returning businesses, he should simply lower the tax rate, provide a holiday for corporations bringing earnings back into the US, and then simply say there will be a two tier system. One for people who take their operations overseas and one for people who maintain their operations here. Naw, I'd still hate it. Either the rat bastard believes in the market or he doesn't. Just get the Supreme Court right, ya jerk.

[Wrath of Dagon]

So is the latest frothing-at-the-mouth paranoia over Trump answering a SK phone call justified, or is it much ado about nothing? Shouldn't the media pace themselves here? They have 4 years of scare tactic to dole out. What happens if he does something monumentally dangerous, and we all yawn because the New York Times has cried wolf 500 times already?

Taiwan, not SK. The media had lost all credibility a long time ago, no use crying over spilled milk.

[BruceVC]

So is the latest frothing-at-the-mouth paranoia over Trump answering a SK phone call justified, or is it much ado about nothing? Shouldn't the media pace themselves here? They have 4 years of scare tactic to dole out. What happens if he does something monumentally dangerous, and we all yawn because the New York Times has cried wolf 500 times already?

Do you mean the call from Taiwan? You know what ,f***k the Chinese, I didnt even know the USA wasn't talking to Taiwan

 

So its  a non-issue 

[HoonDing]

"You know what ,f***k the Chinese, I didnt even know the USA wasn't talking to Taiwan"

 

Bruce hates Chinese influence in Afrika (and soon Latin Amerika too) so much that he'll become a Trumpist before long.

Edited December 5, 2016 by HoonDing

[Volourn]

"So is the latest frothing-at-the-mouth paranoia over Trump answering a SK phone call justified, or is it much ado about nothing? Shouldn't the media pace themselves here? They have 4 years of scare tactic to dole out. What happens if he does something monumentally dangerous, and we all yawn because the New York Times has cried wolf 500 times already?"

 

My thought is this..  the fearmongering about China starting a war with the US over a phone call is silly and is actually disrespectful towards China. Like they are gonna start bombing the US because of a phone call. COME ON. I mean China does NOTHING while the US trades  billions of dollars of modern weapons to Taiwan. LMAO Besides, the moment China starts a war the US they will lost out all the ridiculous amount of money the US owes them. Thankfully, China may be a piece of crap evil scumbag dictatorship but they are self serving piece of crap scumbag dictatorship and obviously think a lot more logically than  the media, Democratic politicians, and other yahoos.

 

Also, funny that the Left go nutz fearmongering about a possible war with China because Trump took a phone call but don't mind trying to start a war with Russia.

 

Hmm.. what's the difference between those two countries... oh, I know... one is Whitey mcwhite and other is Asian... Yup, no mystery at all. Also, the Dems are gonna oppose anything Trump does no matter what (just like Repubs do to the others). I mean Dems are crying over the fact that Trump managed to keep jobs in Amerika and he's not even President yet. LMAO

[imaenoon]

We should recognize the potential impact on both our allies and competitors in the region, but the idea that we should tailor our activities based on fear of any adversary is an insult. I don't hate China, but I damned well don't think America should stand in fear of them, let alone cower. This wink wink nod nod nudge nudge diplomacy crap has been going on for a long time, and I don't think it's gotten us far. We prevailed against the Soviet Empire *after* we named them for what they were. Throughout history, we've only been able to fight effectively against ideas, ideology, and movements that we've been willing to name. I won't say that China is our *enemy.* I don't think they are. ...But they don't act like friends. If they occupy that grey area between ally and adversary, then I would suggest that we owe no them considerably less control over whom we contact than we owe Britain or South Korea, and we would never forgo talking to Taiwan our of fear of British protest. I've expressed my thoughts about Trump several times, but if he refuses to bow before China I'm sure as hell not going to complain about it. One China sounds good and all, but One China that tells us whom we can and cannot contact does not. It's a dance and we end up being the wallflower.

[HoonDing]

Trump + Putin + Duterte + Shinzo Abe= Kill china

[BruceVC]

We should recognize the potential impact on both our allies and competitors in the region, but the idea that we should tailor our activities based on fear of any adversary is an insult. I don't hate China, but I damned well don't think America should stand in fear of them, let alone cower. This wink wink nod nod nudge nudge diplomacy crap has been going on for a long time, and I don't think it's gotten us far. We prevailed against the Soviet Empire *after* we named them for what they were. Throughout history, we've only been able to fight effectively against ideas, ideology, and movements that we've been willing to name. I won't say that China is our *enemy.* I don't think they are. ...But they don't act like friends. If they occupy that grey area between ally and adversary, then I would suggest that we owe no them considerably less control over whom we contact than we owe Britain or South Korea, and we would never forgo talking to Taiwan our of fear of British protest. I've expressed my thoughts about Trump several times, but if he refuses to bow before China I'm sure as hell not going to complain about it. One China sounds good and all, but One China that tells us whom we can and cannot contact does not. It's a dance and we end up being the wallflower.

Of course China is not a real enemy but you absolutely right about the hubris of the Chinese and them telling the USA " you cant speak to Taiwan "  WTF !!! Who do they think they are?

 

But the USA does have a  real and symbiotic economic relationship with China, this trade agreement is very important to both countries so for me I wouldn/t jeopardize it  over Taiwan?

 

So let the Chinese shout at the USA for  a while...its not a big deal if we honest?

[Hurlshort]

The weird thing is the US has a pretty big arms deal with Taiwan, so this whole issue about a phone call is dumb.

[BruceVC]

The weird thing is the US has a pretty big arms deal with Taiwan, so this whole issue about a phone call is dumb.

That is also correct, the Chinese are weird and inconsistent around they respond to certain global issues 

 

I remember how they punished the Dalai Lama by forbidding him to reincarnate in Tibet...I kid you not 

 

http://humansarefree.com/2011/02/china-bans-reincarnation-without.html 

[imaenoon]

I think Trump's phone conversation with Taiwain (as President *elect* I might add) would not be a particularly big deal if the press had not made more of it than it is. Their breathless coverage of all things Trump amplifies everything the man does. I don't think our relationship would be jeopardized by the phone call any more than any other number of factors that were in play before Trump won the election. In fact, even before he announced his candidacy. The Chinese are building an island in the South China sea in order to proclaim sovereignty (and therefore control) over a whole swath of water. The press is making a huge issue of a phone call?

 

They could have reported on it. Sure, that's the job of the press. They didn't do that. The Democrats came out swinging on the issue and the press used it as an avenue of attack outside of simply reporting. Saying that it bucked the status quo (as if we should want to keep the status quo anyway) is perfectly legit. They're also free to spend air time, ink, and pixels on the phone call as well. However, at some point the extent of the coverage becomes newsworthy itself, and endless commentary, punditry, and editorial angst helps fuel Democrat opportunism that elevates the issue from a complaint lodged by the Chinese to a full blown international affair.

 

Trump might be a tool and some people might rabidly and unreasonably hate the guy, but he's our guy right now, like him or not. If it came down to a choice between piling on Hillary Clinton or siding with her against the Russians, trust me, politics in the United States would have stopped at the waters edge in my house.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The deal we originally made with China for reconciliation was that we would hypocritically support one China policy while doing everything we can to keep Taiwan independent. So Chinese get upset every time we forget the hypocrisy. Of course as Trump pointed out China doesn't ask our permission for their aggression in the South China Sea.

[BruceVC]

one call as well. However, at some point the extent of the coverage becomes newsworthy itself, and endless commentary, punditry, and editorial angst helps fuel Democrat opportunism that elevates the issue from a complaint lodged by the Chinese to a full blown international affair.

 

Trump might be a tool and some people might rabidly and unreasonably hate the guy, but he's our guy right now, like him or not. If it came down to a choice between piling on Hillary Clinton or siding with her against the Russians, trust me, politics in the United States would have stopped at the waters edge in my house.

Yes we must support Trump  because he is the US  president, this was in no doubt for me

 

But its unfair to compare Hilary to Trump because she is not president....if she had won wouldn't you be supporting her in these types of foreign policy decisions ? 

[imaenoon]

I sure as hell would. That's what I mean, Bruce. There is room to to criticize the president on foreign affairs, and I might disagree with Clinton, but I'd never want to look like I favored a foreign governments over her. Anyhow, she was clearly better equipped for foreign affairs.

Edited December 5, 2016 by imaenoon

[BruceVC]

I sure as hell would. That's what I mean, Bruce. There is room to to criticize the president on foreign affairs, and I might disagree with Clinton, but I'd never want to look like I favored a foreign governments over her. Anyhow, she was clearly better equipped for foreign affairs.

I assumed you would say that, its what we do when we support our country

[imaenoon]

So, Housing and Urban Development goes to Carson. Interesting. For his agenda, I think Price was a better fit for HHS, but it might have been a slap in the face to Carson not to get it. He seems to be happy with HUD and I'm hopeful he'll do a good job. Carson is a little weird and he has a strange sort of delivery, but He's got great and complex ideas that he seems to find some difficulty expressing effectively to the population.

[Wrath of Dagon]

We don't know what Trump's agenda really is, I'm hoping he's more pragmatic than the idealogues, his past statements would indicate that, but in that case Price wasn't a good choice.

[imaenoon]

Once the election's over, the only thing to do is hope that the new president gets it right. I have some hope for Trump, but I'll probably always some problems with him. To be fair, a lot of that is my fault. His accent and word choice are off-putting to me, and that's simply not fair to him. As long as his words correctly convey the thought, it really doesn't matter which one he uses. His accent should be a complete non-issue. Nevertheless, I'll be reading a lot of transcripts rather than watching speeches while he's in office. :shrug: I normally read transcripts anyway. He has some policy approaches I don't like and I don't trust him more than I could throw him. Probably considerably less, but we've gotta give him a chance.

 

This has been a great thread. 50 pages of back and forth with some gems thrown in there every now and then. It's great to see different arguments and find merit in them somewhere. Covered a wide range of subjects in addition to the presidential election. Interesting to see what the next four years will bring. Hope to spar with you guys again sometime.

[HoonDing]

"So, Housing and Urban Development goes to Carson."

 

His first proposal will be to replace barns by pyramids.

[Meshugger]

"So, Housing and Urban Development goes to Carson."

 

His first proposal will be to replace barns by pyramids.

 

I think that we all can get behind this.

[Namutree]

 

"So, Housing and Urban Development goes to Carson."

 

His first proposal will be to replace barns by pyramids.

 

I think that we all can get behind this.

 

I'll lay the bricks myself. Anything for Ben Carson; as long as I get that sweet, sweet Ambien.

[Malcador]

"So, Housing and Urban Development goes to Carson."

 

His first proposal will be to replace barns by pyramids.

Can we seal him in there too?

[Volourn]

"The weird thing is the US has a pretty big arms deal with Taiwan, so this whole issue about a phone call is dumb."

 

Exactly. The Dems think its fine if they sell wepaons to Taiwan and China won't care but a phone call will start the war. It should be noted also, btw, China hasn't reacted much at all. At least not publicly. LMAO This is what fearmongering is. Worst case scenario is all the nonsense in the press riles up China and they feel the need to push back on something they otherwise would shrug their shoulders over.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trumps-taiwan-phone-call-was-weeks-in-the-planning-say-people-who-were-involved/2016/12/04/f8be4b0c-ba4e-11e6-94ac-3d324840106c_story.html?utm_term=.076d4c6308aa

 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-trump-taiwan-call-china-20161205-story.html

Edited December 6, 2016 by Volourn

[Agiel]

Those of us who loathe Trump on the basis of his more fundamental and basic failings (that of being the most dishonest, vacant, and most unstable person to have been installed into the highest office of the United States) take issue with his China approach less for the principle of recognising a fellow liberal democracy (as one wag once put it, "Taiwan can go on being a country so long as nobody acknowledges that it is a country") and more for his totally reckless and incoherent approach with zero consideration over second and third-order consequences (by the way, the difference in attitude another thing he and Mattis, someone who is known for taking a very long view on issues, might be at loggerheads over). As the Richard Nixon Twitter account once noted:

 

 

 

The Chinese are very subtle, and they expect subtlety in return. They equate it with strength.

 

The US approach on Taiwan, love it or hate it, has worked, insomuch that it has contributed to one of the longest periods of stability in East Asia while also insuring that we can go on enjoying our artificially inflated quality of life built on iPhones and laptops made in Chinese factories.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Agiel