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Coup or attempted coup in Turkey


Malcador

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Guys Turkey is not a good example of a functional and healthy Democracy 

 

Yes they do follow certain Democratic rules but  they have a  strategic purpose in the region that is of greater consequence than " does Erdogan believe and implement  all the principles of a Democracy " 

 

 So it surprises me  when people compare the purge ongoing in Turkey at the moment as "an example of the failure of a Democracy "

 

These are two separate social and political realities  and should not  be seen as similar 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Yes there is some truth in this concern, Erdogan has said he can now purge Turkey of ...people who oppose him?

Erdogan wants to go one step further and introduce the death penalty. Makes it a lot easier to get rid of all opposition to his plans for an all powerful executive presidency. He even built the palace where he plans to spend the rest of his days...

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Yes there is some truth in this concern, Erdogan has said he can now purge Turkey of ...people who oppose him?

Erdogan wants to go one step further and introduce the death penalty. Makes it a lot easier to get rid of all opposition to his plans for an all powerful executive presidency. He even built the palace where he plans to spend the rest of his days...

 

 

Introduction of death penalty would mean that Turkey have decided to throw all their plans to join EU away. 

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Yes there is some truth in this concern, Erdogan has said he can now purge Turkey of ...people who oppose him?

Erdogan wants to go one step further and introduce the death penalty. Makes it a lot easier to get rid of all opposition to his plans for an all powerful executive presidency. He even built the palace where he plans to spend the rest of his days...

Introduction of death penalty would mean that Turkey have decided to throw all their plans to join EU away.

Not allowed to have death penalty if part of EU?

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Yes there is some truth in this concern, Erdogan has said he can now purge Turkey of ...people who oppose him?

Erdogan wants to go one step further and introduce the death penalty. Makes it a lot easier to get rid of all opposition to his plans for an all powerful executive presidency. He even built the palace where he plans to spend the rest of his days...

Introduction of death penalty would mean that Turkey have decided to throw all their plans to join EU away.

Not allowed to have death penalty if part of EU?

 

Correct, its about the belief in human rights 

 

 

http://www.eeas.europa.eu/human_rights/adp/index_en.htm

 

 

And Elerond is right, if Erdogan starts executing people he can forget joining the EU. The Germans have warned him about this

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Turkey was never going to get into the EU anyway. If they couldn't get in with the moderate secular CHP* in power they certainly won't with a wannabe Sultan religious nutbar in power. Recep Tayyip Erdogollum certainly knows that, hence the strongarming to get EU lite concessions like visa free travel over the refugee crisis. EU is the dangling carrot, but the donkey has got wise.

 

Kind of lol though that there are people (eg Kerry) openly insinuating that Turkey could be kicked out of NATO. In one sense not before time but everyone knows that ain't going to happen either.

 

*I literally cannot write that acronym without the theme to CHiPs going off in my head.

 

What am i looking at, what do the colors represent and how have they changed from before?

 

Aleppo, Syria. Red = government, green = rebels, yellow = kurds. The last route into the rebel areas of urban Aleppo at left of map, Castello Rd, is now cut as of about a day ago. Why oby didn't just say that who knows.

 

Ironically Oby's image comes from a notoriously pro rebel source that also hosts perhaps the most anti Russian 'analysis' of Ukraine in existence.

Edited by Zoraptor
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Turkey was never going to get into the EU anyway. If they couldn't get in with the moderate secular CHP* in power they certainly won't with a wannabe Sultan religious nutbar in power. Recep Tayyip Erdogollum certainly knows that, hence the strongarming to get EU lite concessions like visa free travel over the refugee crisis. EU is the dangling carrot, but the donkey has got wise.

 

There are lots of people in Turkey that seem to hope that Turkey can someday join in EU, which is why both EU and Turkey use membership negotiation as tool in other negotiations like for example in negotiations about refugee crisis. Current Turkish regime don't want join in EU but they know that they have easier time to keep people happy if people see that there is hope in future when regime changes. And lots of politician in EU wanted to keep open door for Turkey because they saw it way to build bridge in Middle East. So currently Turkey's membership negotiations are in freeze and they most likely will be in freeze at least until Erdogan leaves the office (because he clearly don't want Turkey to join in EU). But if Turkey introduces death penalty it means that Turkey's membership negotiations will end, and then if Turkey wants to negotiate about membership they need seek to start new process for membership negotiations which need to be accepted by all the EU members. and I see changes for such thing to be nearly non existent, it was already difficult in 1999 when there was will to expand EU and less members.

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Turkey was never going to get into the EU anyway. If they couldn't get in with the moderate secular CHP* in power they certainly won't with a wannabe Sultan religious nutbar in power. Recep Tayyip Erdogollum certainly knows that, hence the strongarming to get EU lite concessions like visa free travel over the refugee crisis. EU is the dangling carrot, but the donkey has got wise.

 

There are lots of people in Turkey that seem to hope that Turkey can someday join in EU, which is why both EU and Turkey use membership negotiation as tool in other negotiations like for example in negotiations about refugee crisis. Current Turkish regime don't want join in EU but they know that they have easier time to keep people happy if people see that there is hope in future when regime changes. And lots of politician in EU wanted to keep open door for Turkey because they saw it way to build bridge in Middle East. So currently Turkey's membership negotiations are in freeze and they most likely will be in freeze at least until Erdogan leaves the office (because he clearly don't want Turkey to join in EU). But if Turkey introduces death penalty it means that Turkey's membership negotiations will end, and then if Turkey wants to negotiate about membership they need seek to start new process for membership negotiations which need to be accepted by all the EU members. and I see changes for such thing to be nearly non existent, it was already difficult in 1999 when there was will to expand EU and less members.

 

Elerond has summarized my point nicely

 

Turkey can join and should  join the EU and the intention to join the  EU is a real one 

 

But the EU needs to ensure Turkey implements the rules and social policies that the EU stands for, the EU absolutely cannot compromise on rules and standards for any new country that wants to join

 

So the ball is in Turkeys court but we also cannot deny at the moment with  all the political instability in the ME Turkey has become an important buffer between the EU and the ME ...so we wouldnt want Turkey suddenly joining the EU now but rather at a later stage 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2016/07/18/pakistan-honor-killing-field.cnn

 

 

Honor killings still happen in Pakistan where women are generally appallingly  treated, this story upset me for some reason....more than these stories normally do

 

I just think "how mentally dysfunctional and ignorant  do you have to be to feel you have to kill your own sister " 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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So much similarity in cause, process and consequences of coup.
military_coup_in_turkey__marian_kamensky

Meanwhile Tukhachevsky and other conspirators, using unrest among the Party functionaries, accelerated preparations for a coup d’etat. Tukhachevsky intended to ask the USSR People’s Commissar for Defence K.E. Voroshilov to convene a conference on military problems in the Kremlin. Tukhachevsky planned to come to the conference with his supporters and to surround the Kremlin with troops loyal to him. Stalin and some of his Politbureau colleagues were to be arrested and shot immediately.

After the end of the plenary session of the Central Committee the conspirators increased their preparations. Carell wrote: ‘In March 1937 the race between Stalin and Tukhachevsky was becoming increasingly dramatic... Why did the Marshal not act then? Why was he still hesitating? The answer is simple enough. The moves of General Staff officers and Army commanders, whose headquarters were often thousands of miles apart, were difficult to coordinate especially as their strict surveillance by the secret police forced them to act with the utmost caution. The coup against Stalin was fixed for the 1st of May 1937, mainly because the May Day Parades would make it possible to move substantial troop contingents to Moscow without arousing suspicion’.

At that time Trotsky in his ‘Bulletin of the Opposition’ wrote about a probable rebellion of the Soviet military against Stalin. On the 9th of April 1937 the chief of the Red Army Intelligence Board S. Uritsky informed Stalin and Voroshilov that in Berlin there were rumours about the opposition of the Soviet military to the Soviet leadership.

By that time the Gestapo got wind of the negotiations of Tukhachevsky with the German military leaders. In order to get fuller information about relations between the military leaders of the two countries Gestapo agents penetrated the archives of the Wehrmacht and stole some of the documents pertaining to the contacts of the German military with the Soviet. The Gestapo agents tried to conceal the theft of documents by setting fire to the archives. After the stolen documents were analysed the Gestapo deputy chief Heydrich came to the conclusion that there was ample evidence of the secret cooperation between the leaders of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army. The Gestapo informed Hitler about the documents.

Despite the pro-German statements of Tukhachevsky, Hitler and others in the Nazi leadership were not happy over clandestine contacts between the military leaders of Germany and the USSR. The Nazi leaders considered that the establishment of the military dictatorship in Russia might stimulate similar developments in Germany. And the military dictator of Russia Tukhachevsky might help his German colleagues during the future coup. Hitler decided to thwart the joint conspiracy of the military leaders of the two countries. He ordered the sending of the stolen documents to Moscow, but adding to them fabrications to make the materials even more shocking. German Intelligence chief Walter Schellenberg later wrote that the false additions constituted but a minor part of the whole collection, which was secretly sold to the Soviet Union. (Later in 1971 V. M. Molotov claimed that he, Stalin and other Politbureau members knew about the Tukhachevsky conspiracy before they got the German documents.)

There are different versions of the subsequent events. On the one hand there is substantial evidence that the military coup scheduled for the 1st of May was frustrated at the last minute. Some people present at the time at Red Square remembered that immediately after the beginning of the parade the rumours were spread about an imminent terrorist act against Stalin and other Politbureau members who at that time occupied the tribune on the Lenin Mausoleum. Later NKVD officer Pavel Meshik claimed that he personally arrested a terrorist on the upper floor of the building adjacent to Red Square just when he was getting ready to shoot. Meshik said that he was awarded the Order of Lenin for this arrest.

A British correspondent Fitzroy MacClean who was present at the May Day parade stated that he noticed nervousness in the conduct of the Politbureau members. Some of them hardly watched the parade. According to MacClean only Stalin preserved an unperturbed mien.

On the other hand there is evidence that the coup was postponed. Just before the 1st of May in London it was announced that on the 12th of May there would be the coronation of George VI who had become the King after the abdication of Edward VIII. The Soviet delegation was invited for the ceremony and the Soviet Government decided that Tukhachevsky would be a leader of the delegation. According to Carell, Tukhachevsky ‘postponed the coup by three weeks. That was his fatal mistake’.

On the 3rd of May documents of Tukhachevsky were sent to the British Embassy in connection with his visit to London. But on the next day the papers were called back and it was announced that the Soviet admiral V. M. Orlov would be a chief of the delegation.

On the 10th of May it was announced that Tukhachevsky was relieved from the duties of the deputy of the People’ Commissar for Defence and made the commander of the Volga military district. On the 24th of May Stalin sent a circular letter to all the members and alternate members of the Party Central Committee. They were informed about the conspiratorial activities of Tukhachevsky and others. Since Tukhachevsky was an alternate member of the Central Committee, other members and alternate members of this highest body of the Party were asked to vote for or against his expulsion from the Party and transfer of his case to the NKVD. All the members and alternate members of the Central Committee supported the suggested measures against Tukhachevsky.

The leader of the conspiracy was arrested on the 27th of May. Between 19 and 31 his major collaborators were arrested. But one of them, the deputy People’s Commissar for Defence Y. B. Gamarnik committed suicide just before his arrest.

http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv13n2/tukhach.htm

 

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Not sure what a blog about painted 25mm miniatures entitled More Medieval Muslims and Halflings. etc. has to do with Turkish warships disappearing but I'm sure Oby sees some direct connection.   

 

22Feb201601.jpg

 

:lol:

 

Oby .....please dont ever leave these forums .... :lol:

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Someone has been reading Mao, it seems. I wonder how long it will take until we will see people's courts springing up with dubious trials.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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He's a subtle one

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Not sure what a blog about painted 25mm miniatures entitled More Medieval Muslims and Halflings. etc. has to do with Turkish warships disappearing but I'm sure Oby sees some direct connection.   

 

22Feb201601.jpg

 

you actual read oby posts? he could secretly slip in the location o' el dorado and we would never know. 

 

...

 

what else do you do for entertainment? french kiss light sockets? date strippers with daddy issues? watch supernatural

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Not sure what a blog about painted 25mm miniatures entitled More Medieval Muslims and Halflings. etc. has to do with Turkish warships disappearing but I'm sure Oby sees some direct connection.   

 

22Feb201601.jpg

 

you actual read oby posts? he could secretly slip in the location o' el dorado and we would never know. 

 

...

 

what else do you do for entertainment? french kiss light sockets? date strippers with daddy issues? watch supernatural

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Somebody has to keep him honest on occasion  

 

date strippers with daddy issues?  No that would be Bruce. 

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Not sure what a blog about painted 25mm miniatures entitled More Medieval Muslims and Halflings. etc. has to do with Turkish warships disappearing but I'm sure Oby sees some direct connection.   

 

22Feb201601.jpg

 

you actual read oby posts? he could secretly slip in the location o' el dorado and we would never know. 

 

...

 

what else do you do for entertainment? french kiss light sockets? date strippers with daddy issues? watch supernatural

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Somebody has to keep him honest on occasion  

 

date strippers with daddy issues?  No that would be Bruce. 

 

:lol:

 

What can I say, I care about mankind !!!

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Meanwhile in Turkey

CnwhtHQXYAA7Mml.jpg

 

64884286.jpg

 

Main reason why coup has been failed - full support of Erdogan from side of Obama - in such situation cowardly generals from Turkish HQ try to awoid responsobility - they hide and betray own troops sended to coup. For Russia such situation is Epic win - we can see now as best Turkish leader evar effectively destroy second military power in NATO by Purges, but... for Murica this is epic fail! Obama just shot to own leg by supporting of legitime president. Western elites so western.

 

Meawhile in Russia we celebrate yet another victory - Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine, and Syrian war for destabilize of Turkey. So much win. 

 

Vae victis.

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/280499-russias-sphere-of-influence-needs-to-be-stopped

 

Halp! Save Turkey from Russia! Somebody...

 

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Meanwhile in Turkey

CnwhtHQXYAA7Mml.jpg

 

64884286.jpg

 

Main reason why coup has been failed - full support of Erdogan from side of Obama - i

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/280499-russias-sphere-of-influence-needs-to-be-stopped

 

Halp! Save Turkey from Russia! Somebody...

 

Yes Oby the West  does support Erdogan because he has strategic importance as Turkey is important around regional stability 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Yes Oby the West does support Erdogan because he has strategic importance as Turkey is important around regional stability

Yep, and he effectively destroy Turkey right now. Westlings can't into strategic thinking. :lol::lol::lol:
Well Bruce, he is currently the biggest pain in the ass for Europe... If EU will support him despite all of what is happening, then there will be even more anti EU sentiment rising, because this is direct pissing and ****ting in the face of the basic principles of democratic foundations of Europe...

 

It also amuses me how are you defending the equality among people, but on other hand, we should just support Erdogan and his lackeys and overlook his purges, because Turkey is "important strategic partner"

 

*mindblown*

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