US Election 2016, part III

[ktchong]

[Raithe]

[Pidesco]

 

 

I just think you guys  deserve better than Trump ....he wont win the election, its not possible. If he does lose would that bother you?

 

 

 

Hillary is NOT better than Trump. It's just a different variety of bad.

 

 

While better is perhaps an inadequate word to compare Clinton to Trump, she is definitely less worse than Trump. The whole fascist, xenophobic, incompetent deal with Trump, is a different kind of bad compared to other politicians on the current American political stage. 

 

Clinton seems to me very much like a generic American politician, not all that different from most past American political leaders. Terrible, but par for the course.

 

Trump on the other hand is a different kind of monster, begat from the Republicans' appalling political strategies since Nixon and the American "fast food" news media, together with the economic and political dissatisfaction of the lower classes.

 

That the nominally left leaning politicians in first world countries are leaving the lower classes ripe for the picking of the extreme right is the true problem going on here. In that sense Trump is simply a ghastly and frightening symptom of a much larger issue.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I just think you guys  deserve better than Trump ....he wont win the election, its not possible. If he does lose would that bother you?

 

 

 

Hillary is NOT better than Trump. It's just a different variety of bad.

 

 

While better is perhaps an inadequate word to compare Clinton to Trump, she is definitely less worse than Trump. The whole fascist, xenophobic, incompetent deal with Trump, is a different kind of bad compared to other politicians on the current American political stage. 

 

Clinton seems to me very much like a generic American politician, not all that different from most past American political leaders. Terrible, but par for the course.

 

Trump on the other hand is a different kind of monster, begat from the Republicans' appalling political strategies since Nixon and the American "fast food" news media, together with the economic and political dissatisfaction of the lower classes.

 

That the nominally left leaning politicians in first world countries are leaving the lower classes ripe for the picking of the extreme right is the true problem going on here. In that sense Trump is simply a ghastly and frightening symptom of a much larger issue.

 

This is a good post because you have used your own words  to describe Clinton and Trump and I feel you have done it in a reasonable way that should resonate with people

 

GD isnt a Trump supporter, many American members think both candidates are worthless

 

But for me Clinton is a better choice and has reasonable plans for the USA

[Pidesco]

I don't think Clinton is a good choice. I simply think Trump is bad enough not be a choice at all.

 

I know GD isn't a Trump supporter. I think he has always (=since he joined the forums) been a libertarian.

[BruceVC]

I don't think Clinton is a good choice. I simply think Trump is bad enough not be a choice at all.

 

I know GD isn't a Trump supporter. I think he has always (=since he joined the forums) been a libertarian.

Of course Clinton is a good choice? She has the support of the majority of moderate Americans so she doesnt  want to build a wall or deport 11 million people so straight away she will reduce this fear the the world has what Trump can do

 

She wants to continue the Obama legacy and the majority of Americans support this, there is nothing radical or extreme about her policies so we shouldn't  see too much of an impact to the world 

 

Why dont you think she is a good chocie ?

[Guard Dog]

I don't think Clinton is a good choice. I simply think Trump is bad enough not be a choice at all.

 

I know GD isn't a Trump supporter. I think he has always (=since he joined the forums) been a libertarian.

I might be called many things and I hope "consistent" is one of them!

Edited July 12, 2016 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

 

Ruth Bader Ginsburg says she will move to New Zealand if Trump wins. Oh I DO hope she means that. The only, and I do mean ONLY reason I'd support Trump is I DO NOT want Hillary Clinton choosing Supreme Court Justices. But if he wins and RBG makes good on her comment (she won't) then Trump would get to replace 2 justices. If he chooses names off that list he released that would be a big win.  http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/11/us/politics/ruth-bader-ginsburg-no-fan-of-donald-trump-critiques-latest-term.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=1

 

Really RBG should know better than to comment on an election. That is pretty low class for a justice.

 

 

“Think what would have happened had Justice Scalia remained with us,” she said. Instead of a single sentence announcing the tie, she suggested, a five-justice majority would have issued a precedent-setting decision dealing a lasting setback to Mr. Obama and the immigrants he had tried to protect.

Dammit THIS is why it f-----g sucks to get liberal justices on the court. It should not make a s--t all difference to her that the decision would be a set back to a President she supported. And the plight of the immigrants shouldn't even have entered into her thinking. This case came down to two things, did the 26 states have standing to bring the case and did the Executive violate the law. Well the US Court of the southern district and  5th Circuit Court of appeals said "yes" and "yes". The effect of the outcome should not be a thing she troubles herself over but it's clear she was worried about how this made Obama look and the poor benighted immigrants. The only thing that matters is what the law says. The only way we will all be equal before the law is when the law is equally applied. Here she is ready to turn the law on it's head because that way she will like the outcome better. 

 

Another problem with this is if Trump actually manages to get elected every time his SG needs to argue a case before the court there is a whiff of bias from RBG towards the President. It might lead to something embarrassing like demands she recuse herself. She really should know better than to talk ill of a Presidential candidate. 

No offense GD but hearing some Americans saying things like " if Trump becomes president I will leave the USA" is getting annoying and is just hyperbole and theatrics, Trump is a man, he is not going to destroy the USA

 

The USA  has  fought world wars  and has  been through decades of Cold War and is overall considered the greatest Western nation in the world. The USA has great fortitude and resilience and has always persevered over external and domestic threats

 

Yet suddenly " people cant handle living in the USA if Trump wins " .....I'm sorry but people are sounding like real drama queens. Where is that famous US equanimity and commitment to the country ? 

 

Oh I agree it is absurd. Usually it comes from celebrities. And it is even more absurd when none of them make good on it. But this is a sitting Supreme Court Justice. She is expected to comport herself with both dignity and neutrality. Of course she has opinions. Of course she has biases. But you don't tell them to the world via the NY Times if you are a Supreme Court Justice!

[Pidesco]

 

I don't think Clinton is a good choice. I simply think Trump is bad enough not be a choice at all.

 

I know GD isn't a Trump supporter. I think he has always (=since he joined the forums) been a libertarian.

I might be called many things and I hope "consistent" is one of them!

 

 

I'm guessing you dating profile just states you love dogs and individual rights.

 

It feels weird sometimes, having been on the forums for so long.  You kind of count as a guy I know even if we don't really know each other.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

I don't think Clinton is a good choice. I simply think Trump is bad enough not be a choice at all.

 

I know GD isn't a Trump supporter. I think he has always (=since he joined the forums) been a libertarian.

I might be called many things and I hope "consistent" is one of them!

 

 

I'm guessing you dating profile just states you love dogs and individual rights.

 

It feels weird sometimes, having been on the forums for so long.  You kind of count as a guy I know even if we don't really know each other.

 

You too Brother! I like coming to this board because there is such a wide variety of people and opinions from all over the world. That is hard to find. Most forums tend to become monolithic over time. Not here.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

the NY Post was weighed in on RBG: http://nypost.com/2016/07/11/ruth-bader-ginsburgs-unhinged-assault-on-trump/

[Pidesco]

 

I don't think Clinton is a good choice. I simply think Trump is bad enough not be a choice at all.

 

I know GD isn't a Trump supporter. I think he has always (=since he joined the forums) been a libertarian.

Of course Clinton is a good choice? She has the support of the majority of moderate Americans so she doesnt  want to build a wall or deport 11 million people so straight away she will reduce this fear the the world has what Trump can do

 

She wants to continue the Obama legacy and the majority of Americans support this, there is nothing radical or extreme about her policies so we shouldn't  see too much of an impact to the world 

 

Why dont you think she is a good chocie ?

 

 

That's just it. She is a choice. That she seems like a good choice is more of a lowering of standards on the Republican side. From my view Democrats are standard, corrupt politicians under the thumb of big money and Obama is no different. Republicans have become something a lot more pernicious and dangerous than that, and Democrats just get a pass for their direct competition being an utter crapshow.

 

The Republican Party becoming an unmitigated disaster means that Democrats win by default, but it's a win that tastes like old socks and broken dreams.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I don't think Clinton is a good choice. I simply think Trump is bad enough not be a choice at all.

 

I know GD isn't a Trump supporter. I think he has always (=since he joined the forums) been a libertarian.

I might be called many things and I hope "consistent" is one of them!

 

 

I'm guessing you dating profile just states you love dogs and individual rights.

 

It feels weird sometimes, having been on the forums for so long.  You kind of count as a guy I know even if we don't really know each other.

 

Its nice to see you guys acknowledging each other in a meaningful way and you right you guys have probably known each other for over 10 years and that does mean something

 

Thats something about forums I have never been good at understanding, you have people who are active for 10-14 years yet people still havent got to know personal details. I prefer RL engagements and friendships as then I can see what people mean and are feeling

[Guard Dog]

The thing is, I don't know if Trump really believes the xenophobic/nationalist stuff he's shooting off or if this is just the horse he's picked to ride. He's been in the public eye his whole life nearly and has no history to indicate he's thought this way all along. Remember until very recently he's been a pretty vocal supporter of the Democrats and leftists politics in general. So it begs the question does he believe his own rhetoric or is this a device to inflame the electorate by rallying them against "enemies". .

 

The problem is neither is good. The former is small minded and the latter is cynical and manipulative.

 

I will give him credit for one thing, He has been a vocal supporter of trade protectionism so that much of his platform he comes by honestly.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I don't think Clinton is a good choice. I simply think Trump is bad enough not be a choice at all.

 

I know GD isn't a Trump supporter. I think he has always (=since he joined the forums) been a libertarian.

I might be called many things and I hope "consistent" is one of them!

 

 

I'm guessing you dating profile just states you love dogs and individual rights.

 

It feels weird sometimes, having been on the forums for so long.  You kind of count as a guy I know even if we don't really know each other.

 

You too Brother! I like coming to this board because there is such a wide variety of people and opinions from all over the world. That is hard to find. Most forums tend to become monolithic over time. Not here.

 

GD would you agree these forums have always been fun but it wasnt until we started chatting that your life had new meaning    

[Gorth]

 

 

My take on Clinton and Trump...

 

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm an "outsider" so my stake in this is not domestic US politics, but anything that affects foreign relations, international stability and world economy.

 

 

Too lazy to do a search, but I'm fairly sure one of my early posts compared Trump to Berlusconi. Both populist politicians appealing to lowest common denominator. Only difference is/was, Berlusconi literally owned the Italian media, so didn't have to compete with other candidates for primetime. Trump had to construct (I suspect deliberately, because he isn't that stupid) outrageous statements to get the masses moving and flocking to him. In essence, he staged a "media coup". What he really wants I've got no idea.

 

Clinton on the other hand gives me goose bumps. I've never seen such a cold hearted, manipulating schemer before. I suspect she would do *anything*, legit or underhanded for power and cling on to it to the point of trying to make the title either hereditary or extend the limits from two terms to the end of her life expectancy. If the white house doesn't want her, I'm sure the CIA would have room for her in their ranks. Completely devoid of morality.

 

 

In good old D&D terms, for me Trump and Clinton are Chaotic Neutral and Neutral Evil respectively

[Meshugger]

It boggles my mind how a supreme court justice can give such unprofessional statements. This is banana-republic-****-tier level of arguments.

[Pidesco]

The thing is, I don't know if Trump really believes the xenophobic/nationalist stuff he's shooting off or if this is just the horse he's picked to ride. He's been in the public eye his whole life nearly and has no history to indicate he's thought this way all along. Remember until very recently he's been a pretty vocal supporter of the Democrats and leftists politics in general. So it begs the question does he believe his own rhetoric or is this a device to inflame the electorate by rallying them against "enemies". .

 

The problem is neither is good. The former is small minded and the latter is cynical and manipulative.

 

I will give him credit for one thing, He has been a vocal supporter of trade protectionism so that much of his platform he comes by honestly.

 

I don't know whether he believes it or not, but I do think that, up to a certain point it doesn't matter. His xenophobic speech is still inciting hatred and extremism right here and now, indelibly associating the Republican base with it. Additionally, if the snowball happens to have its day in hell and Trump ends up winning, it will be seen by many racists and xenophobes as open confirmation that their views are accepted in the US, at large. Given the relationship Americans have with violence in general and guns in particular, I can't help but see that as a potent recipe for disaster.

[BruceVC]

The thing is, I don't know if Trump really believes the xenophobic/nationalist stuff he's shooting off or if this is just the horse he's picked to ride. He's been in the public eye his whole life nearly and has no history to indicate he's thought this way all along. Remember until very recently he's been a pretty vocal supporter of the Democrats and leftists politics in general. So it begs the question does he believe his own rhetoric or is this a device to inflame the electorate by rallying them against "enemies". .

 

The problem is neither is good. The former is small minded and the latter is cynical and manipulative.

 

I will give him credit for one thing, He has been a vocal supporter of trade protectionism so that much of his platform he comes by honestly.

Trump antics were part of his political  strategy,  almost everything offensive he said  was part of his methodology to outmaneuver the Republican establishment  

 

Doesnt change the fact he alienate  and frustrated many people and will have to deal with consequences on some levels

[BruceVC]

My take on Clinton and Trump...

 

Disclaimer: Yes, I'm an "outsider" so my stake in this is not domestic US politics, but anything that affects foreign relations, international stability and world economy.

 

 

Too lazy to do a search, but I'm fairly sure one of my early posts compared Trump to Berlusconi. Both populist politicians appealing to lowest common denominator. Only difference is/was, Berlusconi literally owned the Italian media, so didn't have to compete with other candidates for primetime. Trump had to construct (I suspect deliberately, because he isn't that stupid) outrageous statements to get the masses moving and flocking to him. In essence, he staged a "media coup". What he really wants I've got no idea.

 

Clinton on the other hand gives me goose bumps. I've never seen such a cold hearted, manipulating schemer before. I suspect she would do *anything*, legit or underhanded for power and cling on to it to the point of trying to make the title either hereditary or extend the limits from two terms to the end of her life expectancy. If the white house doesn't want her, I'm sure the CIA would have room for her in their ranks. Completely devoid of morality.

 

 

In good old D&D terms, for me Trump and Clinton are Chaotic Neutral and Neutral Evil respectively

Sorry Gorthie but do you realize you are considered an outsider and its unlikely our American friends will believe you  

[Guard Dog]

 

The thing is, I don't know if Trump really believes the xenophobic/nationalist stuff he's shooting off or if this is just the horse he's picked to ride. He's been in the public eye his whole life nearly and has no history to indicate he's thought this way all along. Remember until very recently he's been a pretty vocal supporter of the Democrats and leftists politics in general. So it begs the question does he believe his own rhetoric or is this a device to inflame the electorate by rallying them against "enemies". .

 

The problem is neither is good. The former is small minded and the latter is cynical and manipulative.

 

I will give him credit for one thing, He has been a vocal supporter of trade protectionism so that much of his platform he comes by honestly.

 

I don't know whether he believes it or not, but I do think that, up to a certain point it doesn't matter. His xenophobic speech is still inciting hatred and extremism right here and now, indelibly associating the Republican base with it. Additionally, if the snowball happens to have its day in hell and Trump ends up winning, it will be seen by many racists and xenophobes as open confirmation that their views are accepted in the US, at large. Given the relationship Americans have with violence in general and guns in particular, I can't help but see that as a potent recipe for disaster.

 

I don't think it would go that far. Even if Trump is elected. Generally speaking people treat each other pretty decently if you give them a chance. And to tell the truth either candidate  would be pretty neutralized if Congress were in the control of the opposite party. Which I desperately hope happens no matter who wins. I do think Hillary could get long with an opposition Congress better than Trump. He would be ground down to a stand still. Not that  is a bad thing necessarily. I'd rather have four years of gridlock than four years of bad law any day.

[Guard Dog]

I just LOVE this quote on Gary Johnson's page:

 

 

A handful of people in Washington are ruining America for 330 million of us. They have kept our nation in a state of perpetual war and increasing, unsustainable debt. This small group, which includes both major party leaders, has presided over the systematic dismantling of the freedoms guaranteed us under our Constitution. It is them we should be fighting, not each other.
​
We the People will never agree on all of the small things, but let’s agree on the big thing: Our leaders have blown it. If we don’t get control of this ship together and fix it together, we will all go down with it together.

Be Libertarian with us…​
Join us in trying something different.
Let’s put parties and differences aside while we solve our problems.
Together we’ll stop the spending and end the wars.
Together we’ll restore our industrial might.
Together, we’ll rebuild our own roads, bridges, schools and hospitals instead of building them for countries half a world away.
And if, in four years, we as a people decide we didn’t like peace, prosperity and freedom, we can always vote tyranny back into office again.​

[Wrath of Dagon]

Oh I agree it is absurd. Usually it comes from celebrities. And it is even more absurd when none of them make good on it. But this is a sitting Supreme Court Justice. She is expected to comport herself with both dignity and neutrality. Of course she has opinions. Of course she has biases. But you don't tell them to the world via the NY Times if you are a Supreme Court Justice!

See, there's a perception problem. You perceive her as a Supreme Court Justice, who's supposed to be neutral. She and every liberal judge perceive themselves as Super Legislators, whose word is the Law, whatever it is. But go ahead and vote for Johnson, it'll give those people control over courts for a generation, or more likely forever.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I think whether Trump really believes in his rhetoric(which I'd say is exaggerated by the media) or is just pandering is irrelevant. The fact is Trump has managed to tap into an undercurrent the establishment ignored and has used their support to seize a position in the oligopoly of US politics. Even if Trump isn't elected or doesn't get anything done, the people he's tapped into are going to be around and might get more radical and start attacking the base of the oligopoly ala Tea Party. The same applies to Sanders and his supporters, these people aren't going to all fall in line and the overton window has already shifted and it can't be turned back.

[Guard Dog]

I think whether Trump really believes in his rhetoric(which I'd say is exaggerated by the media) or is just pandering is irrelevant. The fact is Trump has managed to tap into an undercurrent the establishment ignored and has used their support to seize a position in the oligopoly of US politics. Even if Trump isn't elected or doesn't get anything done, the people he's tapped into are going to be around and might get more radical and start attacking the base of the oligopoly ala Tea Party. The same applies to Sanders and his supporters, these people aren't going to all fall in line and the overton window has already shifted and it can't be turned back.

If it has shifted it has done so in the direction of "less freedom". Sounds to me like it's time to stockpile weapons, ammo, gold coins and canned food again,

 

What am I saying? It's ALWAYS time to do that!