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If there is gonna be a player base again, it should play a much bigger role in main plot this time. Most quest givers should come to us rather than we go there and find that quest at its location. Meetings should take place in it, a round table could be useful : P Also certain events, like feasting for important NPCs, balls etc. More useful prison system and NWN2 like managing patrols, surrounding lands etc. And ofc defending it in more climactic way. Minimal generic NPCs; shopkeepers should be someones with problems that we can solve somehow etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

 

If the game won't include caed nua, our base should be in the next big city, a fortified manor maybe that we inherited somehow... HQ of the Order of the Watchers, now in ruins : P

 

Also DAO like customizable AI system, pretty please.

 

Tie all generic dialogue questions to a disposition, that way our character shouldn't ask the same questions to the exact same letter all game long. Next rpg challenge for you. 

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  1. Fully customizable NPC builds.
  2. A sensible attack / action speed system.
  3. Better balance and more variation in per rest / per encounter options and active abilities in general - especially if there's lots of "long slog of similar encounters" content.
  4. Less emphasis on accuracy vs. defenses. Stacking stuff is too important and is probably the biggest issue newer players seem to have with combat. (Not being able to hit spirits or whatever)
  5. Hold position toggle, so I can leave AI on without worrying about people moving and getting disengaged when I don't want this.
  6. Engagement system has potential and I like it in theory but it's awkward and silly, needs a cooldown on disengagement attacks, small movements shouldn't trigger them - IE a sidestep or backstep shouldn't = turning around and running, and melee need more interesting penalties for disengagement attacks - like Fighter's Overbearing guard but less extreme and built into the class. Also, facing should matter and it doesn't, enemies can turn their back to their current engager and whack your rogue just fine. Flankers/fragile melee are extremely penalized by engagement system as it is right now.
  7. Separate personality/ dialogue stats from combat / derived stats. They don't really make sense when paired, nor do they add anything other than frustration if your class of choice doesn't pair well with the attributes you want for dialogue.
  8. Conditional/stat based talents (think Combat Expertise, Finesse, Divine Might, etc.). I understand why this was avoided in PoE 1, but if you want to really let people build fun/weird you need to let players pick more benefits for oddball stats that the base class doesn't get enough value from.
  9. If they're dead and nobody saw/heard it happen, it should not influence my reputation. (For example killing Medreth's party in the woods with no witnesses still gets me bad rep with Doemenels).
  10. More conveniently sized player base / multiple bases (I'd love a tavern).
  11. Option to use character models as portraits.

 

 

 

I like this...very well articulated. 

Edited by Anaeme
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No mid game expansions please!

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"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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More added to the wishlist

 

A single attribute like Resolve should not dominate when it comes to dialog options. A resolve of 18 in PoE was enough to get the PC through most of the dialog options. Dialog options should be distributed better among the attributes

 

 

The bounties seemed 'tacked on' to me. the XP gain for those missions did not match overall game balance

 

 

I would like the level cap removed...but that's just my opinion

 

 

There should be more opportunities for people to gain attribute points through questing. The three in PoE (heritage hill, Council of Stars, Skaen Temple) were not enough

 

 

I personally like min maxing. i like to see what I can squeeze out of a build. There are those who do not like to play that way and that is fine as well. PoE 2 should pay off for both types of play style

 

I mean... Pillars of Eternity is a single player game, I don't understand why some people get so competitive, or ambitious, there's no rankings or anything...

 

Min/maxing? Companion NPC stat distribution? Level cap removal? Epic levels???!!!

 

This is no MMO. What is the problem with a more grounded game? Why do you have to become a God and instant kill every enemy? This isn't either fun or challenging (maybe Tyranny will be more your cup of tea)

 

Also, the companion NPCs were written, they are fixed characters and their stats are part of their creation, like it or not. Just make your own party member if you want to min/max.

Edited by LuccA
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More added to the wishlist

 

A single attribute like Resolve should not dominate when it comes to dialog options. A resolve of 18 in PoE was enough to get the PC through most of the dialog options. Dialog options should be distributed better among the attributes

 

 

The bounties seemed 'tacked on' to me. the XP gain for those missions did not match overall game balance

 

 

I would like the level cap removed...but that's just my opinion

 

 

There should be more opportunities for people to gain attribute points through questing. The three in PoE (heritage hill, Council of Stars, Skaen Temple) were not enough

 

 

I personally like min maxing. i like to see what I can squeeze out of a build. There are those who do not like to play that way and that is fine as well. PoE 2 should pay off for both types of play style

 

I mean... Pillars of Eternity is a single player game, I don't understand why some people get so competitive, or ambitious, there's no rankings or anything...

 

Min/maxing? Companion NPC stat distribution? Level cap removal? Epic levels???!!!

 

This is no MMO. What is the problem with a more grounded game? Why do you have to become a God and instant kill every enemy? This isn't either fun or challenging (maybe Tyranny will be more your cup of tea)

 

Also, the companion NPCs were written, they are fixed characters and their stats are part of their creation, like it or not. Just make your own party member if you want to min/max.

 

 

We need all this stuff so more pressure falls on the devs' backs to make these niche things so then we can come in here and rant about their uselessness and how great we are finding the game super easy on max difficulty.

 

Just kidding of course. I agree with you. This is a single player game driven mostly by story and roleplay. Combat fills the gaps. I don't say they shouldn't give love there, but, unless the game is a tactics-based strategy like, say, XCOM, I don't see why we must have all these things people proposing here. The combat, on normal, felt just about right to me.

Edited by Sedrefilos
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More added to the wishlist

 

A single attribute like Resolve should not dominate when it comes to dialog options. A resolve of 18 in PoE was enough to get the PC through most of the dialog options. Dialog options should be distributed better among the attributes

 

 

The bounties seemed 'tacked on' to me. the XP gain for those missions did not match overall game balance

 

 

I would like the level cap removed...but that's just my opinion

 

 

There should be more opportunities for people to gain attribute points through questing. The three in PoE (heritage hill, Council of Stars, Skaen Temple) were not enough

 

 

I personally like min maxing. i like to see what I can squeeze out of a build. There are those who do not like to play that way and that is fine as well. PoE 2 should pay off for both types of play style

I mean... Pillars of Eternity is a single player game, I don't understand why some people get so competitive, or ambitious, there's no rankings or anything...

 

Min/maxing? Companion NPC stat distribution? Level cap removal? Epic levels???!!!

 

This is no MMO. What is the problem with a more grounded game? Why do you have to become a God and instant kill every enemy? This isn't either fun or challenging (maybe Tyranny will be more your cup of tea)

 

Also, the companion NPCs were written, they are fixed characters and their stats are part of their creation, like it or not. Just make your own party member if you want to min/max.

Because we want to be able to customise companions and enjoy npc conversations...

 

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp...

 

Inb4 someone tells me how I'm supposed to play my singleplayer RPG.

 

'You're not supposed to be able to change their stats!!!'

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Magran knows how much I dislike Durance high Resolve but, lore-wise, Durance won't be Durance without a will able to surpass a goddess's expectations.

 

NPC companions won't ever be fully customizable. Deity, Background, Race are part of their lore. I would like to be able to pick their lvl 1 ability as for other levels but that's about it.

 

I prefer unique powerful feature that you trade against min-maxing. Pallegina and the Devil did it well. Who has complained about Pallegina's stats since she got Wrath of the Five Sun ?

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Magran knows how much I dislike Durance high Resolve but, lore-wise, Durance won't be Durance without a will able to surpass a goddess's expectations.

 

NPC companions won't ever be fully customizable. Deity, Background, Race are part of their lore. I would like to be able to pick their lvl 1 ability as for other levels but that's about it.

 

I prefer unique powerful feature that you trade against min-maxing. Pallegina and the Devil did it well. Who has complained about Pallegina's stats since she got Wrath of the Five Sun ?

 

Race is fine. Deity is fine. Background is fine although I'd prefer not to have skill points tied to it. What I, and I think many people really wanted, was attribute customization. That could happen if they split combat stats from personality attributes as I suggested. That's what really allows you to be flexible with builds. It's harder to shape them into your preferred role if they have mediocre or bad attributes for it currently.

 

It's hard to build a high attack speed focused character with low Dexterity. Hard to make a crit focused build with low Perception. Hard to make a proper tanky character with low Con and/or Resolve. Etc. etc. You always end up with something a little disappointing - some companions are worse than others, of course.

 

It also really doesn't impact how I view Durance's character to see 19 Resolve on his character sheet, and it doesn't really make sense that a high resolve character should necessarily be better at avoiding hits in combat anyway. Nor does it make sense that a high intellect character cast bigger AoEs. Really they're kinda contrived links, some make a bit of sense and others just don't, and they tweaked things around for balance a lot. It'd be better to just let us pick all the derived combat stats, and pick our conversation traits separately.

Edited by Odd Hermit
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Being able to change the level 1 ability would indeed be nice (though there obvious good reasons not to allow that in PoE, so I don't mind overly much). But for the rest, I definitely think it shouldn't be possible to change NPCs base stats (let alone other core properties). As Elric says, these define the character, which in my view goes beyond just the flavour aspect of it. It also forces the player to some extent to play the NPC in a way that fits the NPCs properties, it isn't a blank slate you can just fill in however you please. And that's rather how it's supposed to be, I would say.

 

I also don't really see why this is such a problem for some people. If you really want more fully customized characters, that's what the hirelings are for; in this regard PoE strikes a very good balance between BG-style and IWD-style NPCs, it caters to both preferences. And if you really want to change the companion NPCs stats you can use the console as well, so it's not like it isn't possible anyway.

 

Thinking about wishlists and such though, what I would like to see in PoE 2 would be to have some pre-made hirelings, something intermediate between companions and the blank slate hirelings (I mean in addition to the latter, not as a replacement). So like companions having fixed stats, portrait, some unique abilities/backgrounds/races etc. (and predefined levelling scheme, if auto-leveling) and being available (hireable) at only one particular location and at the same XP level as the protagonist. But like the regular hirelings, without their own quests or (much) direct involvement in the plot, maybe not necessarily their own voice set. Seems like a nice way to get some NPCs in there that are a bit more fleshed out and unique than plain hirelings, but without requiring the developers to invest too much time and money into making backstories and quests and interactions for them; they could just give some backstory in text form, when you hire them. This way they can also add stuff like more unique NPC races and such without having to balance them for customizable characters, so we could maybe get Tana the Xaurip as NPC, or Korgrak the Ogre (or an intelligent Ooze!). Anyway, just a thought. 

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The usual powergamer (including me) don't like feeling objectivly gimped. Companions with subopimal choices have STRICTLY LESS possibility than hireling. So, for the sensitive soul of the powergamer, Hireling > Companion. And choosing Companion does hurt his sick and maniac little powergamer heart.

 

I'm not making fun of powergamers. I'm telling you exactly what I feel.

 

Anyway, stat change WON'T fix the pain of the poor powergamer when choosing companion instead of hireling. He will soon realize he can't customize companion race, deity, shapeshifting form, background... He will be unsatisfied again.

 

I prefer Hiravias with his optimal form and race rather than with optimal stats. Stats are not the core of the problem.

 

Unique traits DO FIX the powergamer's pain. Because he knows what he gets from choosing Pallegina instead of a random paladin hireling.

(even if the scheming mind of the everquesting powergamer will soon plan whining on the forum to get from Obsidian the Five Sun talents allowed for his paladin PC... That's the neverending fate of the cursed powergamer... :- )

Edited by Elric Galad
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But then, why would the powergamer still complain given the available options? Flavour-oriented players have fleshed out, but therefore more constrained, companion NPCs to choose from; powergamers have fully customizable hirelings they can use, and a console command to change stats on companion NPCs. Obviously players aren't so dichotomous in their preference, but my point is: essentially all the options you could want are there, so what's the fuss about? That hirelings cost a bit more money / that using the console disables achievements (*gasp* no!!) and isn't as "official" as a menu option?

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If they will not allow us choose NPC stats, they should make the NPC's powerful enough for players to ignore their miserable attributes...

 

In KOTOR 2 Kreia had stats that were so good that nobody needed to worry about her survivability in a fight

 

 

I think they were trying to correct this issue with Maneha

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As Elric says, these define the character, which in my view goes beyond just the flavour aspect of it. It also forces the player to some extent to play the NPC in a way that fits the NPCs properties, it isn't a blank slate you can just fill in however you please. And that's rather how it's supposed to be, I would say.

 

I also don't really see why this is such a problem for some people. If you really want more fully customized characters, that's what the hirelings are for; in this regard PoE strikes a very good balance between BG-style and IWD-style NPCs, it caters to both preferences. And if you really want to change the companion NPCs stats you can use the console as well, so it's not like it isn't possible anyway.

 

Hirelings are boring. That's the issue, pretty easy to see why some players would want the best of both worlds. That's how you cater to all preferences.

 

Console commands prevent achievements - which I don't care about but some do - as well as being an extra PITA to do. Mods work, but don't always play nice after patches.

 

The attributes as they are implemented, really do not play any substantial role in characterization and don't fit well with their combat bonuses anyway. And the NPCs can't even use them in dialogue checks. If Durance could use his ridiculous resolve to solve quests at least that'd be something.

 

 

 

The usual powergamer (including me) don't like feeling objectivly gimped. Companions with subopimal choices have STRICTLY LESS possibility than hireling. So, for the sensitive soul of the powergamer, Hireling > Companion. And choosing Companion does hurt his sick and maniac little powergamer heart.

 

Anyway, stat change WON'T fix the pain of the poor powergamer when choosing companion instead of hireling. He will soon realize he can't customize companion race, deity, shapeshifting form, background... He will be unsatisfied again.

 

I prefer Hiravias with his optimal form and race rather than with optimal stats. Stats are not the core of the problem.

 

Unique traits DO FIX the powergamer's pain. Because he knows what he gets from choosing Pallegina instead of a random paladin hireling.

(even if the scheming mind of the everquesting powergamer will soon plan whining on the forum to get from Obsidian the Five Sun talents allowed for his paladin PC... That's the neverending fate of the cursed powergamer... :- )

 

 

Unique traits aren't a fix, they're better than nothing but for players who like tinkering with builds it isn't necessarily about power - it's about building interesting new combinations and synergies to enjoy the combat with. You're overly focused on the power aspect, it's not the only reason to want more customization. If you hop on over to the builds and strategies section, many of the builds are far from optimal but instead focused on building to cater to enjoyable playstyles and/or theme.

 

"Possibility" is a good word to bring up - custom attributes(or, as I suggest, separate combat stats) just allow far more possible builds. Unique traits don't compare on their own.

 

Race, deity, order, shift form, etc. are a bigger part of an NPC's character than attributes by far, and overall don't play as big a role - with some exceptions. Priest deity is pretty meaningless 'cause they suck. Stelgaer happens to be equivalent to cat which is arguably best for shifter builds, though wolf has use for less melee focused druids. Orders are pretty potent in some cases, admittedly, but luckily Pallegina has an amazing one. Background isn't major, it's mostly a nuisance not to have a high mechanics choice. Race is the only thing left and is a big part of some builds, but if races were balanced better would be less of a problem.

 

All of those things are generally just less limiting than attributes are, with more reason to be an innate part of a character.

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Magran knows how much I dislike Durance high Resolve but, lore-wise, Durance won't be Durance without a will able to surpass a goddess's expectations.

 

NPC companions won't ever be fully customizable. Deity, Background, Race are part of their lore. I would like to be able to pick their lvl 1 ability as for other levels but that's about it.

 

I prefer unique powerful feature that you trade against min-maxing. Pallegina and the Devil did it well. Who has complained about Pallegina's stats since she got Wrath of the Five Sun ?

Haha I knew it! Plz, go ahead, tell me how to play my singleplayer RPG! Clearly OPTIONS are wrong, for the almighty RPG God has declared Durance must have 19 resolve in order for thy game to function!

 

I wonder why IEMod allows full customization then, someone should tell them they're violating the sacred rule as decreed by our RPG God.

 

This is simply a case of a player determining that the way they want to play a game must be the way everyone else plays it.

 

It's bull****.

 

Never mind that respec itself makes absolutely no sense. Let's create artificial barriers to fun in the name of 'lore'. Because having the option of tuning attributes in the game options would just ruin the lore, wouldn't it?

 

Never mind that it's something that players across the forums have repeatedly asked for.

 

And BTW nobody said anything about deity/race or any of that. Talking about changing attributes. So drop the straw man.

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If having options and allowing more customization is wrong, why stop there? Why should we be able to change the NPCs attributes but not race, gender, or class. Or for that matter, why not give players the option to give their characters more than the current 18 additional stat points we get? Or give us the ability for any character to take any talent, so we can make whatever multiclass hybrid concoction we want? 

 

Anyway, the discussion seems kind of moot, it's for the developers to decide; to be honest I can't imagine they will implement it, but we'll see.

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Romances. They're good for sales, ladies love them.

I beg to differ. There's nothing I abhor more in a RPG than romances.

Give me an enthralling story, give me well-written companions, give me clever quests with tons of different solutions, give me challenges.

But don't you dare get anywhere near me with an RPG  "romance". Unless you want to witness my ladylike demeanor dissolve in a plum of smoke, suddenly replaced by a barbaric explosion of disgust & rage, soon to be followed by a poisonous stream of profanities.

Edited by Barbedbeat
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^ amen, sister.

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire

 

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Men were given the choice between the Naive, the Redeemed Bad Girl and the Omnipresent Authority figure. You could date anyone provided that she was an elf.

 

Women were given the choice between Anomen.

That does not help.

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If having options and allowing more customization is wrong, why stop there? Why should we be able to change the NPCs attributes but not race, gender, or class. Or for that matter, why not give players the option to give their characters more than the current 18 additional stat points we get? Or give us the ability for any character to take any talent, so we can make whatever multiclass hybrid concoction we want? 

 

Anyway, the discussion seems kind of moot, it's for the developers to decide; to be honest I can't imagine they will implement it, but we'll see.

Because those things are 10x more important for the character.  It's one thing to say Durance can still be Durance without 19 resolve (which is a matter of opinion) but obviously he can't be a woman, or a completely different class, or an elf, say, or not be a follower of Magran.

 

That's taking it a step too far, and I'd love for anyone that's setting up this straw man (two people in this thread so far) to find anyone who's complained on the forums that you can't change Durance into a woman.

 

No, what we're asking for is simple: allow us the option of enabling the changing of attributes, which have a very loose impact on role-playing at best (proof of that is Obsidian themselves changed attributes on some NPC companions without altering their personalities/dialogue) and an extremely large impact on gameplay, when the respec option is selected for a given companion.

 

Saying 'it's up to Obsi' is rather pointless considering this thread is about what we'd like to see in Pillars 2.

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If having options and allowing more customization is wrong, why stop there? Why should we be able to change the NPCs attributes but not race, gender, or class. Or for that matter, why not give players the option to give their characters more than the current 18 additional stat points we get? Or give us the ability for any character to take any talent, so we can make whatever multiclass hybrid concoction we want?

Because gender, background, class, diety, their unique traits, looks - all of those things are actually used in interactions with NPC characters. Their base attributes tho? Not at all. The common argument seems to run along the lines of "Well Durance wouldn't be Durance without 200 resolve!", but if Obsidian opted for a different arbitrary number for a semi-arbitrary stat-name, the argument would suddenly become "It makes sense that Durance with his low resolve would hate his god!" The attributes have next to no bearing to how characters interact with PC, which is why allowing players to change them is a fairly logical step, whereas allowing them to change, say, gender, is a completely illogical one. Edited by Fenixp
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