Been away for a while. What's new with front-line Chanters?

[Enoch]

I quite enjoyed my first playthrough of the game last year as a generally honest and kind Aumauan Druid who tried to keep out of melee.  But I haven't touched it in 6 months or so, and I'm looking to start up a new character to see the various improvements and run through the expansions. 

 

My thinking is to build a manipulative-bastard Chanter for front-line combat use.  I used Kana a fair amount in my last game, and I always felt like I was under-utilizing him, not always noticing when he had accrued sufficient chants for an invocation and neglecting his potential as a scroll-reader.  Given the greater attention one typically pays to "their" character, I'm hoping that a PC chanter can change that.

 

I'll need enough INT/RES/PER to get the "manipulative" part of my character concept down (that is, dialogue checks), which leaves me with averageish STR & CON, and probably below-average DEX.  My question is whether this still makes for a feasible front-liner, after the various attribute changes and AI improvements-- Will the character be able to take the beating? Will I do enough damage to discourage enemy disengagement?  S&S or Two-hander?

 

Any other input on chants/invocations/abilities to look for or avoid in a Chanter would be most welcome. 

[KDubya]

When I think of "manipulative" I think high Intellect not high Resolve. The Intellect dialogue gets you the loophole type of situations, Resolve gets you the steadfast high conviction type. For me I'd go high Intellect and not both high Intellect and Resolve.

 

With that you'd have the stat points for a high Might stat which will help your spell damage considerably while a few points of deflection from Resolve are easily found elsewhere.

 

Using a shield will get you a huge amount of deflection and reflex, which will make up for your average or even dumped dexterity

 

With your original plan:

 

Might - 10 or 16

Con - 10

Dex - 10 or 4

Per - 16

Int - 16

Res - 16

 

I'd go with

Might 16

Con - 10

Dex -10

Per -16

Int - 16

Res - 10

 

Either would work fine, I try to avoid dumping stats if I can

 

Using AoE damage chants like Dragon Thrash will help keep the enemy focused on you. A high Might will make a big difference as that is pretty much the only damage add that affects your Dragon Thrash. Having a low dex will adversely affect your weapon damage but won't change your chant or invocation damage so it depends on how you plan on damaging things.

 

Look at Boereor's Drake Ambassador build in the sticky, it has a lot of good ideas in it for Chanters.

[MaxQuest]

I'll need enough INT/RES/PER to get the "manipulative" part of my character concept down (that is, dialogue checks), which leaves me with averageish STR & CON, and probably below-average DEX.

You can safely dump DEX. Chants don't benefit from it. And it's neither needed for his melee output. Because main part of chanter's damage comes from invocations, dragon-thrashed chant and indirectly from Aefyllath.

 

Chanters can be great at [DealingDamage], [CC, via scrolls/invocations] and [OffTanking]. I would say pick 2 out of these 3, and max the stats accordingly. Or if you really want to do all 3, keep the stats in 10-16 range and use the spread proposed by KDubya.

 

My question is whether this still makes for a feasible front-liner, after the various attribute changes and AI improvements-- Will the character be able to take the beating?

I used Kana as a second tank. And tbh his 12 CON and 10 RES, felt a bit underwhelming in early game. So either use him as 3rd melee character that engages after your tanks, or up the stats to 14 CON and 12-14 RES. Or get a priest.

 

Will I do enough damage to discourage enemy disengagement?  S&S or Two-hander?

S&S. No other, optimal way for a melee chanter.

As for engagement, your chanter will hold enemies engaged quite easily. He is considered a spellcaster by the game, and has higher targeting priority when in close range.

 

Any other input on chants/invocations/abilities to look for or avoid in a Chanter would be most welcome.

Most useful (from my pov):

 

Chants:

- Aefyllath - imho, best buff there is in the game. Buffing 6 characters with +25% (ok, with +20% when you've got the weapon lashes) is like bringing a 7th dps to the party. Also any ciphers will especially love this.

- Dragon Thrashed - really good damage. In an AoE. Over a big radius.

- Sure-Handed - if you have 2+ ranged team mates (without swift-aim).

 

Invocations:

- White Worms/Seven Nights - has potential to do very, very solid damage.

- Thunder Rolled/Killers Froze Stiff/The Lover cried - there is never too much CC. The versatility of stun vs fort. or paralyze vs will, is also useful.

* Summons - I must note, that I was quite disappointed in all summoning options. But that's probably due to personal playstyle. I had impression that using CCing invocations would provide a better gain, than using these temporary meat-shields, which... were not needed on medium encounters, and were instantly dying on hardest ones.

Edited April 11, 2016 by MaxQuest

[bigwillystyle]

I'd like to add that Ancient Memory and Benevolent Spirits no longer suck.  High Might modifies them, so chalk me up to higher Might as well.  

 

EDIT: Adding also that the duration of the summons was shortened which made them kinda meh.  I love the Stun invocation and the Paralyze invocation - they work really well on the front line too.

Edited April 11, 2016 by bigwillystyle

[Elric Galad]

They are now the strongest class for AoE constant & friendly DPS. This is mostly due to Dragon Slashed chant chanting time being shortened and stacking with itself. I's now like casting a massive DoT centered on caster every 4s for around 40x2 damages (with a bit of might) centered on caster.

 

They are still very sturdy and versatile (mmm Cone of resurrection...)

 

They will be good "arcane guard" for my potential future full caster party.

 

What didn't change is that they are still a quite passive class. You melt everything by standing still. Maybe not that nice for your incarnation. I would not choose them as MC.

 

On the good side they may be one of the best class for using Per, Int and Res. Per for damages and CC, Int for spells and chant and Res for tankyness.

 

You should take into account that there are a bunch of stat boosting items now, plus food and some main character bonuses. You won't need 16-18 in your mental Stat to meet the checks. 13-14 is far enough.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Elric Galad

[rheingold]

They are now the strongest class for AoE constant & friendly DPS. This is mostly due to Dragon Slashed chant chanting time being shortened and stacking with itself. I's now like casting a massive DoT centered on caster every 4s for around 40x2 damages (with a bit of might) centered on caster.

They are still very sturdy and versatile (mmm Cone of resurrection...)

They will be good "arcane guard" for my potential future full caster party.

What didn't change is that they are still a quite passive class. You melt everything by standing still. Maybe not that nice for your incarnation. I would not choose them as MC.

On the good side they may be one of the best class for using Per, Int and Res. Per for damages and CC, Int for spells and chant and Res for tankyness.

You should take into account that there are a bunch of stat boosting items now, plus food and some main character bonuses. You won't need 16-18 in your mental Stat to meet the checks. 13-14 is far enough.

 

 

Absolutely, if you are looking for a role playing chanter then using Kdubyas attribute spread I'd drop perception by 3 and give it to resolve. So you'd have 13 perception, 13 resolve and 16 int, that's enough for a substantial amount of dialogue checks (with bonuses). Chanters as a main are great from a role playing point of view. One of my favourite characters is a boreal dwarf chanter - enchanter blacksmith from the white that wends named Elof Valantor. Obviously uses Abydons hammer though can switch to a shield if needed.

[Crucis]

They are now the strongest class for AoE constant & friendly DPS. This is mostly due to Dragon Slashed chant chanting time being shortened and stacking with itself. I's now like casting a massive DoT centered on caster every 4s for around 40x2 damages (with a bit of might) centered on caster.

 

They are still very sturdy and versatile (mmm Cone of resurrection...)

 

They will be good "arcane guard" for my potential future full caster party.

 

What didn't change is that they are still a quite passive class. You melt everything by standing still. Maybe not that nice for your incarnation. I would not choose them as MC.

 

On the good side they may be one of the best class for using Per, Int and Res. Per for damages and CC, Int for spells and chant and Res for tankyness.

 

You should take into account that there are a bunch of stat boosting items now, plus food and some main character bonuses. You won't need 16-18 in your mental Stat to meet the checks. 13-14 is far enough.

 

 

I don't disagree with anything you've said above.  People just need to be slightly wary when fighting enemies that charm, dominate, or confuse because if one of your party gets affected, the Dragon Slashed chant will start affecting them, so you need to be ready to consider switching chants for a short time if this happens so that you don't slash and burn down a friendly.

 

 

 

[Gromnir]

I quite enjoyed my first playthrough of the game last year as a generally honest and kind Aumauan Druid who tried to keep out of melee.  But I haven't touched it in 6 months or so, and I'm looking to start up a new character to see the various improvements and run through the expansions. 

 

My thinking is to build a manipulative-bastard Chanter for front-line combat use.  I used Kana a fair amount in my last game, and I always felt like I was under-utilizing him, not always noticing when he had accrued sufficient chants for an invocation and neglecting his potential as a scroll-reader.  Given the greater attention one typically pays to "their" character, I'm hoping that a PC chanter can change that.

 

I'll need enough INT/RES/PER to get the "manipulative" part of my character concept down (that is, dialogue checks), which leaves me with averageish STR & CON, and probably below-average DEX.  My question is whether this still makes for a feasible front-liner, after the various attribute changes and AI improvements-- Will the character be able to take the beating? Will I do enough damage to discourage enemy disengagement?  S&S or Two-hander?

 

Any other input on chants/invocations/abilities to look for or avoid in a Chanter would be most welcome. 

 

opine: chanters feel undervalued during many encounters, particularly if you do not play potd.  during boss battles that can drag a bit, a chanter shines and will get multiple uses o' their invocations.  unfortunately, for the majority o' encounters, and at early levels before you get access to more nifty chants, you may feel a bit gimped by the chanter's limitations.  other folks get different mileage from the chanter than does Gromnir, but we cannot help but feel that we purposeful prolong a battle just to get some use outta our invocations. am lucky if we get two invocations outta most poe potd encounters, and chances are the second opportunity is nothing more than cleanup.  folks in this thread is likely gonna be giving you hardcore potd advice, so keep that in mind.  if you play hard or easier, the chanter is gonna be even less impressive as battles will end that much quicker.

 

poe allows a great deal o' flexibility regarding attribute spreads.  far more significant is your talent and ability choices. our potd priest(s)/rogue/cipher/paladins all have had approximate the same attribute spread for the same reason you stated.  make sure per/int/res are all 15 and you should be golden for the more cerebral dialogue checks.  want more tanky?   is few builds, even tank builds, that require impressive con.  given what you want, a front-line chanter with good cerebral stats, you are gonna be working towards your strengths... but don't sacrifice might too far as enemies will ignore your frontliner if you aren't doing consistent damage.

 

am not a chanter fan our self. when we do play, we has always played s&s tanky and they are highly effective in such a role. am personal a fan o' peasant weapons, particular for the chanter.  your starting class accuracy ain't great, and the spear bonus is nice.  there is also a few unique spears available early in the game.  folks always wanna talk endgame best weapons w/o considering that +80% o' the game is gonna be spent w/o the uber weapon in each category.  peasant has hatchets for extra tankiness and fantastic early spears... and if you wanna switch to 2-handed, durance's staff is one o' the more underrated weapons in the game as it is reach capable and has the unique crush/burn quality... and switch to forgemaster's gloves when applicable.  even so, s&s is still more obvious and simple for a tank.  

 

most o' the advice about chants and invocations in the thread looks good.  

 

but again, go at least 15 in per/int/resolve and your gear and rest bonuses should keep you happy with dialogue checks.  push int and resolve a bit higher? it is difficult to build a bad chanter tank unless you are trying to do so, and with the respec option, if you don't like how your chants and invocations synergize with your eventual party dynamic, you may always change.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 11, 2016 by Gromnir

[Enoch]

Thanks, folks.  That all sounds reasonably consistent with what I remember from the game.  I was a little concerned about the tales of the improved AI leading to opponents disregarding tanky types if they lacked the ACC/DAM to bring some hurt, but you've reassured me enough to give it a go.  And the more specific pointers are welcome-- I remember enjoying many of those abilities mentioned, although I may have missed a few. 

 

As for Chanters being dull, well, we'll see how it goes.  I considered other options here, of course, but I don't like how the Priest & Paladin rules tempt the player into metagaming the dialogue.  (Plus, the Goldpacts are clearly the coolest Paladins, and my Druid has already explored most of the Stoic/Rational dialogue options.)  And I'd like to try out the new companions, so I didn't want to double-up with a Rogue, Monk, or Barbarian.  My backup is probably giving the Cipher a try if I don't find the Chanter fun, as it's apparently no longer the E-Z mode it was on release.  Still, I always thought Psionicists were silly, and some of that has rubbed off on the Cipher.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Enoch

[Odd Hermit]

A front line tanky chanter focused on short chants and using control/summon invocations and just ignoring damage abilities entirely IMO is the way to go for the player character. You benefit from all 3 mental attributes which are checked most for dialogue, and have no particular need for 2/3 of the physical stats so you can max the mental ones out easily.

 

 

Personally I build -

 

M.3 C.15 D.4 P.19 I.19 R.18

(Pale Elf or Moon Godlike)

 

Invocations requiring Phrases which require time in combat makes Chanters very limited. If you use high level chants, you won't often get to use high level invocations, even lower level ones will take awhile.

 

So, trying to get an efficient Chant / Invocation strategy is important, and mine is simply to use level 1 Chants and spend my phrases on CC and summons. +10 to all defenses and +1.2 Move Speed for the whole party is pretty solid at all levels. You can vary it a bit depending on situation. Then use the Stun / Paralyze Invocations(keep in mind one targets fort, the other will) or Summon stuff with your phrases.

 

You won't be able to punish disengagement much, but the buffs, crowd control, summons, etc. along with being tank/off-tank material make for a character who doesn't need to contribute damage to be worth a spot.

 

 

It is a very boring class/build, to be honest, but I take a Wizard, Druid and two Priests, so having 4/6 of my party as casters makes up for it.

 

Can also use items and/or active talents - Aspirant's Mark is a good one to take. It's per encounter, long duration fairly strong debuff, no healing/damage so low might isn't an issue.

 

Since Lore is nice to have for some extra dialogue on the player character, it's also a good character to use some scrolls.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Odd Hermit

[Boeroer]

With a tanky chanter I like to go for the damaging chants and use invocations only from time to time on occasion (like revive). I found that enemies are drawn towards this chanter because he constantly damages them, making him a good "sticky" tank who takes off the heat from other party members. And of course his AoE damage with The Dragon Thrashed is just awesome.

[MaxQuest]

M.3 C.15 D.4 P.19 I.19 R.18

(Pale Elf or Moon Godlike)

Silver Tide does benefit from might. To stay optimal, it's either high-mig Moon Godlike, or dumped-might pale elf / wild orlan.

 

As for Chanters being dull, well, we'll see how it goes.

That's actually a plus, if chanter is not your main character. As they require less 'supervision'.

 

----

P.S. Depending on your party composition, you can lower your PER a bit. For example White Worms and Seven Nights invocations both deal high damage and target Reflex. Something like Gaze of Adragan not only will double your damage, but will also lower enemy saves to the ground.

Edited April 12, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Braven]

I would drop CON and DEX and max out the rest with MIGHT and INT being the most important.  Even if you don't use any damaging chants, might is great for passive healing.  In my opinion, the best talent for a front-liner is veterans recovery, and it relies on MIGHT and INT to be at it's best.  CON doesn't matter much as long as you regenerate and mitigate damage (heavy armor, resolve, veteran's, heal multiplier survival bonus or item).

 

Something like this spread should work well:

 

MIGHT: 18

CON: 7

DEX: 7

PER: 15

INT: 18

RES: 15

 

That should still get you all the conversation options, with equipment eventually boosting Perception and Resolve.  Shields tend to work well for chanters since they don't have any specific class bonuses for melee.  However, if you want to try a more melee-oriented build, I would use double +20% speed weapons and get the vulnerable attack talent.  Stacking attack speed can mitigate most of the disadvantages of low dex. and results in much better damage than a 2-hander. 

 

One of the biggest changes in 3.0 is that there are more endurance regeneration options and the existing ones were buffed.  All of them benefit from might and intelligence.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Braven

[Crucis]

 

As for Chanters being dull, well, we'll see how it goes.

That's actually a plus, if chanter is not your main character. As they require less 'supervision'.

 

 

 

This is so true. Having some characters in a party that require less supervision, less micromanagement, means that you can pay more attention to those members of the party that will benefit from greater supervision.

 

[Blunderboss]

Having more than 2 Characters that needs heavy micro usually means that some of them arent being used to full power , i agree that low supervision characters are actually a good thing

[Odd Hermit]

With a tanky chanter I like to go for the damaging chants and use invocations only from time to time on occasion (like revive). I found that enemies are drawn towards this chanter because he constantly damages them, making him a good "sticky" tank who takes off the heat from other party members. And of course his AoE damage with The Dragon Thrashed is just awesome.

 

It's hard to take Might and max Per/Int/Res for dialogue for the player character. Could work with items/rest bonuses picking up the slack though depending on how much you want to metagame dialogue.

 

I wish the attributes were more balanced for dialogue options but Resolve is both the best stat for dialogue and the worst stat for most classes for power-gaming sadly.

 

 

 

M.3 C.15 D.4 P.19 I.19 R.18

(Pale Elf or Moon Godlike)

Silver Tide does benefit from might. To stay optimal, it's either high-mig Moon Godlike, or dumped-might pale elf / wild orlan.

 

 

 

It's a decent heal even without high might. Wild Orlan is also a good choice though.

[Psychevore]

I played this as off hand,two handed (first Grey Sleeper, then Abydon's Hammer) chanter tank and it worked like a charm:

 

 

Per and Int are enough to be manipulative, in my opinion. Might and Resolve are more aggressive.

edit
Using this chanter in my new game:

 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Psychevore

[indika_tates]

I have been playing with a fire godlike frontline chanter and it was one of the funniest times I had in this game. 18 Mig, 20 INT, dump DEX, and put some points into constitution. There are two parts of the game. The first one is before dragon thrased, the second one is after you get it. It's an absolute game changer so don't worry about not being to cast invocations too often. It doesn't matter when you burn everyone in a huge radius.  A fire godlike with Caed nua bonus, casitas, a sacrificed Kana, some items and a priest can reach an absurd level of intelligence. Then, you only have to raise your perception a bit (gloves of accuracy works like a charm) and see how mobs burn endlessly.

 

Take scion of flame and raise up your tradition. In tough battles burn everyone with scrolls of fireballs/fan of flames. There are some nice items that gives you fireballs/rest, or sunbeam rests (wael quest) which stacks with scion of flame. With your insane intelligence is worth it having as many of these items as possible. With shod in faith your healing will be also awesome due to high might. Put a sanguine plate in (which increases your dragon thrased damage due to MIG increase and healing) and enjoy. As soon as you get 4 phrases, holy inspired radiance (+10 accuracy), sound of his voice (everyone paralized), then double scroll of flames/fireball with your main and you can clear a fully room of mobs with your chanter

 

About chants I was using double come/come (Itumaak shines when you build sagani properly because come come and dragon thrased are DOT effects) and after come/dragon. DOT's stacks each other so you can burn a whole area of mobs. The equipment is pretty easy. Small shield (avoid large ones because accuracy penalty affects your chants) and a hatchet. Weapon and shield style, superior deflection, cautious attack. And you have a tank. Put him in the center of the battle. Voice of the mountaintop helps a lot because the larger your chant is, the more enemies burn.

 

Grieving mommy and Durance interdiction helps a lot landing your chants because come/come and dragon rolls are against fortitude. Secret horrors & painful interdiction soften your targets. About races, the chanter is not limited but there are some ones that fit better. Elves because distant advantage, boreal dwarves (high MIG and accuracy), aumauas (stun and prone resistances are awesome when needed) and godlikes because INT and some nice effects. Moon godlikes are also a very good option for a high MIG chanter.