Durance/Priest is irreplaceable in party? :/

[Torm51]

Agreed I play a Paladin protagonist and still think priests are hard to replace ESPECIALLY on PoTD. They bring some BEASTLY buffs that no class can bring to the table giving massive accuracy bonuses that stack with my Darcozzi's Inspiribg Liberation and Zealous Focus (all Paladins can have this one). Bring some ridiculous crits on debuffs (and of course damage) which can turn even the toughest fights into a landslide win for the party.

[jsaving]

Durance's beliefs are weird to say the least, and I can understand why people wouldn't want him joining their parties.  On the other hand, RPGs always take a lot of flak when their joinable NPCs have surface-level personalities so having a subset of the player base dislike some of the more deeply written characters may just be par for the course.  Maybe the devs could have just stuck to characters like Eder and Sagani who have some depth and are genuinely nice people, but then the complaints about "not being able to have an evil party" would have been that much louder.  In some ways it's a no-win situation for the devs, and my take would be that they did the best they could under the circumstances.

 

Some of the particular issues involving Durance are easier to solve than some in this thread have let on.  For example, if you get tired of clicking on him and waiting for his storyline to advance, just head to Caed Nua and rest repeatedly -- you'll finish his character development inside of ten minutes (same is true for Grieving Mother) and will then be free to take him along only when needed.  And if you like the particular set of bonuses a priest provides while disliking Durance, you can substantially though not completely compensate for his absence by choosing the right mix of paladins/druids/chanters for the rest of your party, or completely compensate for it by creating a priest hireling, or more than completely compensate for it by creating a PC protagonist (since PC priests get special bonuses based on faith and conviction).      

 

A separate issue is whether the priest class is too strong in PoE (it probably is), and whether the devs should have considered doing without a dedicated healer/buffer class altogether (as some recent MMOs have done).  PoE actually took a modest step in this direction by introducing the second wind ability, which was originally created for 4th edition D&D specifically to ensure cleric-less parties would have enough healing.  On the other hand, even if the priest is too strong as a class, the game is beatable on all difficulty levels whether you have Durance in the party or not.  That gives players the flexibility to make party-weakening choices for role-playing reasons -- a phenomenon with which everyone who shunned the disagreeable but overpowered mage Edwin in BG1/BG2 will be familiar. 

[Crucis]

Given that I'm a newcomer here, and by the look of things, it appears these stones have been knocked over more than a couple times before...

 

But yeah lets say its just a ME problem, bcs trying to argue common sense with users that have been into this game for god(s) knows how long, certainly have UNbiased opinions and see common sense when presented, would be a delusional issue.

 

Its a good game so far but not without its problems from ground design to execution, still gonna say the same about Batman VS Superman while to some it remains a masterpiece.

(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2975590/board/thread/255177474)

 

Anyway, yeah, opinions.

 

Himself, don't presume to be the voice of common sense.  Your "common sense" is just your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.  An opinion you have every right to have, no doubt.  But even saying that you opinion is "common sense" is an opinion in and of itself.  You may think that your opinion is common sense, while other may see it as anything but common sense.

 

[JerekKruger]

I'd say Priests are possible the strongest force multiplier class in the game, their buffs are really good. As I understand it, a few of the more experienced players over on the Character Builds subforum deliberately avoid taking a Priest for this very reason: it makes the game too easy. In particular, this means it's very possible to play on PotD without a Priest, though it'll be more challenging.

 

Personally I quite like Durance. To be more accurate I think he's a horrible person, but he's well written and I enjoy having him alone. One thing to note though: Durance is by no means a perfectly optimised Priest. Try a merc with a 10 10 18 10 18 12 stat spread and learn just how slow Durance is. 

[Crucis]

Durance's beliefs are weird to say the least, and I can understand why people wouldn't want him joining their parties.  On the other hand, RPGs always take a lot of flak when their joinable NPCs have surface-level personalities so having a subset of the player base dislike some of the more deeply written characters may just be par for the course.  Maybe the devs could have just stuck to characters like Eder and Sagani who have some depth and are genuinely nice people, but then the complaints about "not being able to have an evil party" would have been that much louder.  In some ways it's a no-win situation for the devs, and my take would be that they did the best they could under the circumstances.

I agree that it's a no win situation.  The problem here is though that with only one Companion of each class, if there's a Companion that some people don't like, there isn't a second Companion of the same class to use as a backup plan.  Of course, given how relatively deep these NPC's are (in terms of voiced banter, etc.), adding additional Companions would greatly add to the expense of producing the game.

 

 

Some of the particular issues involving Durance are easier to solve than some in this thread have let on.  For example, if you get tired of clicking on him and waiting for his storyline to advance, just head to Caed Nua and rest repeatedly -- you'll finish his character development inside of ten minutes (same is true for Grieving Mother) and will then be free to take him along only when needed.  And if you like the particular set of bonuses a priest provides while disliking Durance, you can substantially though not completely compensate for his absence by choosing the right mix of paladins/druids/chanters for the rest of your party, or completely compensate for it by creating a priest hireling, or more than completely compensate for it by creating a PC protagonist (since PC priests get special bonuses based on faith and conviction).

Actually, you can't finish Durance's quest this way.  Oh, you can probably progress through a lot of it, but the key event in bringing the quest to a conclusion occurs during the main storyline.  And obviously, that will only happen when it happens.

 

As for GM, it's possible that her quest could be finished that way.  I don't recall anything in her quest being tied to any story line events.

 

 

A separate issue is whether the priest class is too strong in PoE (it probably is), and whether the devs should have considered doing without a dedicated healer/buffer class altogether (as some recent MMOs have done).  PoE actually took a modest step in this direction by introducing the second wind ability, which was originally created for 4th edition D&D specifically to ensure cleric-less parties would have enough healing.  On the other hand, even if the priest is too strong as a class, the game is beatable on all difficulty levels whether you have Durance in the party or not.  That gives players the flexibility to make party-weakening choices for role-playing reasons -- a phenomenon with which everyone who shunned the disagreeable but overpowered mage Edwin in BG1/BG2 will be familiar.

 

People can get along without a priest in PoE, though I will say that if your play style is heavily dependent on priestly spellcasting, it might take you a little while to adapt to not having a priest along.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Crucis

[Crucis]

I'd say Priests are possible the strongest force multiplier class in the game, their buffs are really good. As I understand it, a few of the more experienced players over on the Character Builds subforum deliberately avoid taking a Priest for this very reason: it makes the game too easy. In particular, this means it's very possible to play on PotD without a Priest, though it'll be more challenging.

 

Personally I quite like Durance. To be more accurate I think he's a horrible person, but he's well written and I enjoy having him alone. One thing to note though: Durance is by no means a perfectly optimised Priest. Try a merc with a 10 10 18 10 18 12 stat spread and learn just how slow Durance is. 

 

No doubt that Durance is slow.  OTOH, because if his very high RES, he's pretty well suited to being a battle-priest who can get in melee without getting massacred.  Oh, I wouldn't make him a front liner myself.  But as a second line off-tank, he can hold his own well enough for a while, if the party needs him to jump into the melee wall, as long as you have him properly armored for the job.  IMO, He also does best when off-tanking, if you stick to swords and arquebuses, and take the Magranic class talent that gives a +10 accuracy bonus with those 2 weapons.

[JerekKruger]

No doubt that Durance is slow.  OTOH, because if his very high RES, he's pretty well suited to being a battle-priest who can get in melee without getting massacred.  Oh, I wouldn't make him a front liner myself.  But as a second line off-tank, he can hold his own well enough for a while, if the party needs him to jump into the melee wall, as long as you have him properly armored for the job.  IMO, He also does best when off-tanking, if you stick to swords and arquebuses, and take the Magranic class talent that gives a +10 accuracy bonus with those 2 weapons.

 

Yeah, he's good in that role, except I hate making him wear anything other than his robes (which have a secret bonus resist to fire beyond the usual +3).

[tinysalamander]

To me, a "priest" who wasn't religious would be one without any priestly powers because his deity wouldn't bless him with those powers due to his or her lack of faith.

 

That's not how priests work on Eora.

It's all about YOU, not THEM.

 

[Valsuelm]

I think Avellone said that if he was in charge they would have done companion romances because they're an Infinity Engine thing people wanted.

 

Different people have different tastes, I personally like Durance and find him interesting, but they let you create custom NPCs specifically so if you don't like the pre made companions you can still have a priest/cipher/druid or whatever in your party. So just go to the nearest Inn and create your perfect moé priestess and kick Durance to the curb.

 

Avellone actually has stated numerous times that he is not a fan of 'romances' in games.

[house2fly]

He's not a fan of it but he's also strongly of the opinion that developers should be giving players what they want.

[JerekKruger]

... developers should be giving players what they want.

 

I think there's a balance to be had here. On the one hand, obviously developers should give the players what they want for the simple reason that they want to sell their product. On the other hand, who wanted Planescape: Torment before it was released?

 

It is more difficult in the case of a Kickstarter campaign where the players are also, in a sense, the investors.

[PrimeJunta]

I did play the game all the way through with Durance once.

 

Usually I dump him pretty quickly, and don't replace him with another priest. The only priest spell I really miss is Suppress Affliction, and that's sorted once I find a ring with it. The Prayer Against * spells rule in some boss battles, but that's easily addressed with scrolls.

 

I will do a complete playthrough with a PC priest one of these days though...

[sibakruom]

1- Balance. I can ATM trade him for Aloth, Kana, Sagani or Pallegina. None of these 4 are nearly as useful as he is.

 

That's because you're trying to do a 1:1 switch. You're correct that no other class is going to cover the Priest's role in a team better than a Priest, but different classes can do different parts of a Priest's role while bringing something else on the table. For example a Paladin and Chanter duo may be able to cover the same needs in a team as a Priest and Fighter duo.

 

Try shaking up your party composition more and see if you can find something else that works like you want it to work.

[Himself]

Himself, don't presume to be the voice of common sense.  Your "common sense" is just your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.  An opinion you have every right to have, no doubt.  But even saying that you opinion is "common sense" is an opinion in and of itself.  You may think that your opinion is common sense, while other may see it as anything but common sense.

 

That depends, if you're wise enough to perceive a majority, then opinion is common sense. I pity people who are presented against their personal view every so often, surrounded by fact and pattern, but still thinking its opinion. "Hypocrisy is like blinking, everyone does it a lot and forget that they are doing it."

Edited April 6, 2016 by Himself

[hilfazer]

Why is there so much hate towards best written companion in PoE?

I'm not talking just about this thread.

[Himself]

Why is there so much hate towards best written companion in PoE?

I'm not talking just about this thread.

Is there?

 

Personally don't mind him in general as a character (as said before he is well written IMO), its the marriage of character + overall in-game usability that becomes bothersome.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Himself

[Crucis]

 

Himself, don't presume to be the voice of common sense.  Your "common sense" is just your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.  An opinion you have every right to have, no doubt.  But even saying that you opinion is "common sense" is an opinion in and of itself.  You may think that your opinion is common sense, while other may see it as anything but common sense.

 

That depends, if you're wise enough to perceive a majority, then opinion is common sense. I pity people who are presented against their personal view every so often, surrounded by fact and pattern, but still thinking its opinion. "Hypocrisy is like blinking, everyone does it a lot and forget that they are doing it."

 

 

And yet at the same time, some people will claim some things to be "facts" when they're nothing more than theories and opinions.  And then get all huffy when their "facts" aren't treated as such.  Such people often then try to silence opposition to their "facts", whether by intimidation or other more aggressive means.  This may not happen here much, but it certainly does IRL.

[hilfazer]

There is. Everyone and his brother wants to get rid of him in a ... certain way (damn i can't find spoiler tags).

[Teioh_White]

Priests are pretty awesome; I guess their biggest weakness is they don't do much in the easy fights, and require lots of micro? Which isn't a big deal, a Radiance + Interdiction with follow up melee is enough for easy fights, and the tough fights are rare enough it's not terrible having to micro him. And actually, if you initiate combat from a distance with a pet/sacrifice/boots of speed and the party away, by the time a Priest is done buffing up the team, generally can just let the squad faceroll over the enemy. Even stuff like Adra Dragon dies to a simple buff strategy.

 

I'd still put Wizards ahead though, and Druids a bit behind, and all of three ahead of the rest. But, that's just Vancian casters in IE games; always going to be on top. At least they're not necessary at all to beat everything on PotD; I've done playthroughs far more times with 0 casters than I've done with casters, and it goes fine, just less face roll.

[Himself]

And yet at the same time, some people will claim some things to be "facts" when they're nothing more than theories and opinions.  And then get all huffy when their "facts" aren't treated as such.  Such people often then try to silence opposition to their "facts", whether by intimidation or other more aggressive means.  This may not happen here much, but it certainly does IRL.

Wholeheartedly agree, specially because in here we can perceive the issues and fix them, unless of course, we choose not to, or depend upon the unwilling. Wich makes me twice as glad, noticing how Durance and the priest class are treated in such high regard

[prodigydancer]

boring religious NPC

/facepalm

They say it's a matter of taste but if you dislike Durance you have rather poor taste.

 

---

 

As for priests in general - the class is powerful if played right but not indispensable. In harder fights you can buff your party using scrolls and there are other sources of healing (paladins, druids, items).

 

Finally, saying that Priest outclasses Druid or Paladin is ignorance at best or pure trolling at worst. Particularly, Paladin is probably the strongest class overall and easily the best healer (if built correctly).

Edited April 6, 2016 by prodigydancer

[Elric Galad]

Usual consensus on this forum tendscto say Priest is the hardest class to replace even if Wizards tend to be seen as the most powerful.

 

I can't imagine a powergaming party without priest. Even a chanter party would be optimal with 1 priest.

 

But honnestly, if you're powergaming, why do you even bother with companions (except WM ones and Pallegina who have unique bonus).

 

I think Durance is the best written companion. But I hate him.

Furthermore, his stats win the suboptimal award and human is not awesome for a priest, so...

[house2fly]

 

Why is there so much hate towards best written companion in PoE?

I'm not talking just about this thread.

Is there?

 

Personally don't mind him in general as a character (as said before he is well written IMO), its the marriage of character + overall in-game usability that becomes bothersome.

 

He's well written and really useful to have in your party.  I can see why you wouldn't want to use him.

[Teioh_White]

I think Durance is the best written companion. But I hate him.

 

That's pretty much how I feel about Durance as a character. He's the closest we get to an 'evil' companion. And unlike say, HK-47, he's not entertaining at, personality wise. But his conversations are some of the few spots of generally good writing, also doing a good job of giving background lore to the player while building his character arc. Much better than the wikidumps that pop up frequently elsewhere.

 

Still, he's a horrible person whose done horrible things, so easy to understand why you wouldn't want him with you. Especially on repeat playthroughs, where after getting everyone story, it's just that small personality that I really notice from the NPC. So I just feed him to the blood pool everytime.

 

But Priest is hard to replace exactly. No other class really buffs like a priest, and while Lore can mimic the early priest spells, all the powerhouse ones that let your team face tank a dragon aren't there. Wizard's and Druids CC and AoE potential can largely be Lore'd, and even without that, Cipher's and Chanters to an extant can perform similar effects, but are limited by fair gameplay mechanics. But if you don't have a Priest, you're not getting anything crazy like Devotions or Crowns.

[prodigydancer]

Durance is neither evil nor a terrible person. He's a realistic person. To quote The Simpsons: "Humans are obnoxious, sometimes. Humans hate things."

 

He only looks "terrible" against the background of SJW-pandering (and genuinely boring) characters like Kana or Sagani. Both of them feel like whoever wrote them was using tvtropes.org as the primary source of inspiration.

Edited April 6, 2016 by prodigydancer