Did you kill Harmke?

[adikKt]

I am curious about your choice in Devil of Caroc quest and the reason for it.

 

I slain him, but now I am having second thoughts if I have not missed something in the reading of his soul, since the choice of telling Devil of Caroc that he did not do it is not marked [Lie].

[rheingold]

Well he was guilty as charged.... And you can't excuse mob rule....

[jsaving]

He threw the torch, yes, but there were a number of mitigating factors that could be taken to lessen his culpability.  That's why none of the responses to DoC are listed as being a lie -- you can either say he threw the torch, a technically correct answer that lacks necessary context and evades the question of whether he is responsible, or you can say he wasn't responsible, a value judgment that lacks necessary context and evades the question of whether he threw the torch.   

[rheingold]

There were no mitigating circumstances. He and the others went to Cold Morn to wipe the village out. They spent hours there killing everything and everyone that moved including children. Yes, he might have felt regretted his actions during and afterwards but that doesn't lessen his culpability in anyway. He still killed and in fact, burnt a family to death. Seriously, what mitigating circumstances could there be.....

[Suen]

No, but only because I ****ed up.

Since for some weird reason the watcher can't just plainly tell what he did, I selected the best available answer, expecting to be able to tell something more. 

That leaded to let Harmke go.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Suen

[Rosveen]

There were no mitigating circumstances. He and the others went to Cold Morn to wipe the village out. They spent hours there killing everything and everyone that moved including children. Yes, he might have felt regretted his actions during and afterwards but that doesn't lessen his culpability in anyway. He still killed and in fact, burnt a family to death. Seriously, what mitigating circumstances could there be.....

IIRC, when he reached the Devil's house he ran into another aggressive guy who took him for a villager. He was about to be attacked, so he immediately threw the torch to show which side he was on. You could maybe spin this to say he had doubts and he burned that particular family only to save his own life. But to me he was murderous scum and that's all there is to it. *shrugs*

[KDubya]

I don't understand how this is even considered a hard choice. Him and all the rest of the woodcutters went and killed every man, woman and child in the village because the village did not suicidally attack an army. Everyone is responsible for their actions unless he was being mind controlled - he chose to go out and burn the village down, he chose to throw the torch. He deserves what happens next.

 

The hard choice should have been capturing Hamke and then deciding whether Devil should set him on fire or just cut his throat. Or if it involved killing Hamke and his wife and kids

[Lord Rumfish]

I started with the middle-of-the-road option where I said something like, "It's not that simple," and Devil was having none of that, she wanted an answer.  So, I decided he was far, far more guilty than innocent in the matter and condemned him to death.  It wasn't really that difficult of a choice, those woodcutters were bullies and murderers who caved in to peer pressure and mob justice.  Screw those guys.

[anameforobsidian]

He went with the intent to kill.  The fact that he changed his mind and killed out of cowardice rather than wrath is not terribly mitigating.

[falchen]

Personaly I would have gone with something like jail but since that was not an option, I killed him, he's guilty and does not deserve going free.

[Inspector Switchblade]

There wasn´t too much option when I tell Devil of Caroc that he throw the torch.... btw I used the shadow move (with Devil) per day and the other one critical and 76 HP down and killed, is scripted the critical ??

Edited April 1, 2016 by Inspector Switchblade

[Lychnidos]

I didn't kill him, the whole thing was too much just "hey i just met you, so kill some woodcutters", she wasn't even paying .

[FlintlockJazz]

Latest playthrough chose not to after a long and hard debate with myself.  In the end, what swung it was that he had children, who may end up suffering without a father bringing in an income especially in a place like Stalwart.  And this doesn't count the other woodcutters many of whom would also have children.  Sure, they didn't show mercy to the children of Cold Morn, but that ain't the kids' fault and mass killings ain't gonna bring nobody back.  

 

Plus, as Lychnidos pointed out, it wasn't like Devil was paying me, I mean who does she think I am, a hippy paladin??!  I gots expenses to think of, notching my sword on some hillbilly woodcutter can be costly!  Bloody freeloading scroungers, expecting me to kill for free... *grumble grumble*

[Rosveen]

Can you just let him go or do you have to lie to the Devil and say he didn't do it? I don't remember the dialogue options.

[FlintlockJazz]

Can you just let him go or do you have to lie to the Devil and say he didn't do it? I don't remember the dialogue options.

You have to give her an answer one way or the other, as she won't let it go until she gets an answer, the option not to kill them though is phrased as "He is not responsible" as opposed to "He didn't do it" and isn't marked as a lie or deceptive.  I'm guessing the logic is that while he may have physically thrown the torch that he is not accountable for it, that it was more the mob as a whole that shares the burden perhaps (if it wasn't him then it would have been someone else), that it was an act of passion or that he had no choice.  Of course, you may still think him responsible and still choose not to kill him, in which case it should be marked as a lie and/or as deceptive, but it seems to presume that you are telling the truth to her regardless of which you go for.

[KDubya]

There should be consequences for letting the guilty murderers go free. At some later point the wood cutters and Harmke should burn down another family if you let them go. Something to show you that letting murderers go unpunished is a bad idea.

[house2fly]

He isn't a psycho killer who just loves burning down houses. If you want to punish a dangerous serial killer, punish Devil Of Caroc.

[KDubya]

He isn't a psycho killer who just loves burning down houses. If you want to punish a dangerous serial killer, punish Devil Of Caroc.

 

Who does Devil of Caroc kill besides the people who burned down her village and killed every man women and child that lived there?

 

I'd blame Galvino for forcing her to acquire his test subjects.

 

There is nothing in game that shows Devil killing anyone who does not have it coming.

 

Harmke and his buddies had already won the war against Raedceres but they wanted more. They went out and burned down a village for the crime of not suicidally attacking an army. If someone thinks that sparing these murderers is a "good" action then we have really different definitions of what good is.  Holding harmke and his mob accountable brings them to Justice, letting them get away with it is an injustice.

[dainbramage]

 

He isn't a psycho killer who just loves burning down houses. If you want to punish a dangerous serial killer, punish Devil Of Caroc.

 

Who does Devil of Caroc kill besides the people who burned down her village and killed every man women and child that lived there?

 

I'd blame Galvino for forcing her to acquire his test subjects.

 

There is nothing in game that shows Devil killing anyone who does not have it coming.

 

Harmke and his buddies had already won the war against Raedceres but they wanted more. They went out and burned down a village for the crime of not suicidally attacking an army. If someone thinks that sparing these murderers is a "good" action then we have really different definitions of what good is.  Holding harmke and his mob accountable brings them to Justice, letting them get away with it is an injustice.

 

 

Considering she burned down houses, she wasn't exactly concerned with collateral damage.

[Lychnidos]

There should be consequences for letting the guilty murderers go free. At some later point the wood cutters and Harmke should burn down another family if you let them go. Something to show you that letting murderers go unpunished is a bad idea.

 

That will make Harmke a different character. He isn't a psychotic murderous pyromaniac, he is a person who was angry because his country was invaded, his fellow men were killed, and he wanted retribution. Then there is a town that let the invaders go unopposed, knowing that they have and will kill more of their countrymen. So Harmke isn't thinking rationally, he is guided by emotion and joins a mob of other angry people, thinking why we should care for them when they seem to care non for us.

 

This brings us to Devil of Caroc's poorly motivated quest(for the PC, she has plenty of motivation), we meet her, visit Stalwart and right away she ask us to find and kill a man. A man who we later find out isn't quite at ease with what he has done, and nothing in the game paints him as responsible for any other death, than his participation in the massacre at Cold Morn. Why should the PC do it, does this sound like a reasonable favor to do for someone you just met? 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Lychnidos

[tinysalamander]

The real problem is that there is no real way to choose a “3rd option.”

[KDubya]

 

 

He isn't a psycho killer who just loves burning down houses. If you want to punish a dangerous serial killer, punish Devil Of Caroc.

 

Who does Devil of Caroc kill besides the people who burned down her village and killed every man women and child that lived there?

 

I'd blame Galvino for forcing her to acquire his test subjects.

 

There is nothing in game that shows Devil killing anyone who does not have it coming.

 

Harmke and his buddies had already won the war against Raedceres but they wanted more. They went out and burned down a village for the crime of not suicidally attacking an army. If someone thinks that sparing these murderers is a "good" action then we have really different definitions of what good is.  Holding harmke and his mob accountable brings them to Justice, letting them get away with it is an injustice.

 

 

Considering she burned down houses, she wasn't exactly concerned with collateral damage.

 

 

Eye for an eye. They burned her village she burns their house.

 

 

 

 

 

There should be consequences for letting the guilty murderers go free. At some later point the wood cutters and Harmke should burn down another family if you let them go. Something to show you that letting murderers go unpunished is a bad idea.

 

That will make Harmke a different character. He isn't a psychotic murderous pyromaniac, he is a person who was angry because his country was invaded, his fellow men were killed, and he wanted retribution. Then there is a town that let the invaders go unopposed, knowing that they have and will kill more of their countrymen. So Harmke isn't thinking rationally, he is guided by emotion and joins a mob of other angry people, thinking why we should care for them when they seem to care non for us.

 

This brings us to Devil of Caroc's poorly motivated quest(for the PC, she has plenty of motivation), we meet her, visit Stalwart and right away she ask us to find and kill a man. A man who we later find out isn't quite at ease with what he has done, and nothing in the game paints him as responsible for any other death, than his participation in the massacre at Cold Morn. Why should the PC do it, does this sound like a reasonable favor to do for someone you just met? 

 

 

 If Harmke had become a priest or a monk afterwards and dedicated his life to trying to make amends that would have made for a very difficult choice. But he does not appear to have any regret at all. The only feeling you get is that at the time he was a coward and still chose to kill so that he'd look strong to his buddies.

 

Again what was the village of Cold Morn supposed to do:

A.) Attack an army by themselves with no weapons, troops or training and have everyone killed.

OR

B.) Stay out of the way of the army and hope they leave you alone.

 

In PoE you kill most things you meet for practice or for the loose change in their pockets. Violence is what you do and what you are good at.

[house2fly]

Never underestimate the strength of peer pressure. Mob mentality is a powerful thing, and it's clear from the flashback that he was worried they'd turn on him if he looked weak. What was he supposed to do:

 

A) attack an angry mob by himself with no weapons trying to defend a town of craven traitors and be instantly killed.

OR

B) throw a damn torch at a house and at least look like he's taking part

[KDubya]

Never underestimate the strength of peer pressure. Mob mentality is a powerful thing, and it's clear from the flashback that he was worried they'd turn on him if he looked weak. What was he supposed to do:

 

A) attack an angry mob by himself with no weapons trying to defend a town of craven traitors and be instantly killed.

OR

B) throw a damn torch at a house and at least look like he's taking part

 

How about

 

C.) Stay home and not commit a massacre of civilians?

[Lychnidos]

I never said Cold Morn should have done this or that, just presented the plausible motivations of Harmke and the rest that participated. They were scorned, resentful people looking for payback, you could even say justice, in a misguided primal way.

 

I started to write something on the killing in this kind of games in my previous post, but decided not to post it, so here it is. Yes we kill, and we kill a lot to finish quests and achieve the PC's goals, but during other quests we kill people because they try to hinder us, to stop them from doing we find deplorable, because they are an obstacle, or simply for personal gain. But in this quest we are asked to murder a man to satisfy the need for vengeance of an almost complete stranger. Now vengeance is a powerful motivator, and helping a friend achieve it is fine by me, but with the Devil of Caroc the request for assistance is almost the first thing she asks. They should have paced things better, like with Aloth first you witness a few of his outburst, get on friendly terms with him, then receive the quest, killing because a stranger asks you to for no return is not something people do.

 

And, if you are murderhoboing your way through the game, doesn't mean everyone else does to.