Why Communism Is Coming Back, and Guaranteed Basic Income Will Be Inevitable

[ktchong]

 

It is already here: San Francisco's first automated restaurant is 'pure magic'

 

So what will be the problem?

 

Here is the problem: The current system favors people who own capitals and wealth.  The top one-percenters will own all the automation that will replace human workers. They alone will benefit from the AI and automation revolution when human workers become obsolete. They and their robot workers will suck up and hoard all the money and wealth. Everyone else will be out of a job and broke.  A lot, a lot, of people will be out of a job and broke.  

 

The only solution: communism, socialism, or a guaranteed basic income for everyone.  If anyone can think of any other solution, let's hear it.

Edited March 20, 2016 by ktchong

[Guard Dog]

I think this is evidence Battlestar Galactica is inevitable.

[Hurlshort]

I am almost positive we had a thread about this awhile back, where we discussed the same video.

[ktchong]

I am almost positive we had a thread about this awhile back, where we discussed the same video.

 

Really?  I must have missed it.

[Oerwinde]

 

 

I am almost positive we had a thread about this awhile back, where we discussed the same video.

Really? I must have missed it.

It was a while ago when the video first came out. It's definitely closer to reality now though. As for the robots will rise up and kill us thing, I hope science fiction has taught us to treat robots with respect when they achieve sentience.

[Namutree]

Considering today's most highly regarded version of "socialism" is clearly a variant of capitalism I'd say the winds are going the other direction. Socialism failed to be "inevitable" back when there was something resembling a genuine socialist movement.

[ktchong]

Considering today's most highly regarded version of "socialism" is clearly a variant of capitalism I'd say the winds are going the other direction. Socialism failed to be "inevitable" back when there was something resembling a genuine socialist movement.

 

So what is your solution to the the coming AI and robot revolution that will replace most every type of  job with automation? 

[Namutree]

 

Considering today's most highly regarded version of "socialism" is clearly a variant of capitalism I'd say the winds are going the other direction. Socialism failed to be "inevitable" back when there was something resembling a genuine socialist movement.

 

So what is your solution to the the coming AI and robot revolution that will replace most every type of  job with automation? 

 

We'll just do what we did when more advanced tools eliminated or reduced trades in the past. This isn't a new thing; just a progression of what's been going since the dawn of civilization.

[JadedWolf]

 

 

I am almost positive we had a thread about this awhile back, where we discussed the same video.

Really? I must have missed it.

It was a while ago when the video first came out. It's definitely closer to reality now though. As for the robots will rise up and kill us thing, I hope science fiction has taught us to treat robots with respect when they achieve sentience.

 

 

https://youtu.be/nEXhm_MI_VA?t=118

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

It is already here: San Francisco's first automated restaurant is 'pure magic'

 

So what will be the problem?

 

Here is the problem: The current system favors people who own capitals and wealth.  The top one-percenters will own all the automation that will replace human workers. They alone will benefit from the AI and automation revolution when human workers become obsolete. They and their robot workers will suck up and hoard all the money and wealth. Everyone else will be out of a job and broke.  A lot, a lot, of people will be out of a job and broke.  

 

The only solution: communism, socialism, or a guaranteed basic income for everyone.  If anyone can think of any other solution, let's hear it.

For your only solution you've managed to list three different things.

 

Communism would only happen after Socialism and the absence of the state. I highly doubt the latter is going to happen anytime soon while the former is unlikely to happen without some major upheavals.

 

Socialism would require a large shift in material conditions and probably a revolution or civil war. Mass automation would certainly be that shift, but I highly doubt socialists could overcome sectarianism to build a united front.

 

UBI is the most plausible, and will likely be used in place of current welfare programs and as a supplement to low-wage jobs.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

You fail to understand the root, because you do not understand what money is.

 

Money is a technology which facilitates trade by acting as an abstraction for tangible wealth and labor. To do this, the money needs to be firmly cemented in reality--because goods and labor are both real. Gold and silver have been the best medium for this for many reasons. See The Regression Theorem for more.

 

The problem today, and for the last century is that money has been destroyed. It is no longer money--a store of value, it's a debt based currency. Fiat. By command. When the link between money and tangible reality (scarcity) is broken or corrupted, it becomes a "something for nothing" scheme. Think Wiemar Germany. You create something of value, I trade you paper...or today, ephemeral electronic bits at zero cost for your very real good/service.

 

This has destroyed pricing, capital accumulation, and investment. Those most closely connected to the spigot enjoy at scenario where "Heads they win, Tails you lose" by buying assets (which nominally appreciate) before the currency is debased. This is the principle reason why the wealth divides have increased so significantly. It's also the reason why the world economy has ground to a halt. Prices are massively distorted, and capital is not self-preserving in this environment. It forces people into assets, creating bubbles and malinvestment writ large.

 

Your guaranteed income doesn't solve this problem. It actually exacerbates it. Not only that, but it creates perverse incentive and requires even more State interference to function. To work, an economy would effectively have to formally and fully Sovietize, where this guaranteed income stipend would function as a system of rationing.

 

There are alot more reasons. Every economy in the entire world is onerous burdened by extraordinary (cascading) levels of taxation and regulatory burden. Outside of black markets, there is not a single free or capitalist economy in the entire world. That's a huge part of the equation, but money is at the root. The use of robotics is only a symptom, because human capital has been out-priced by these market distortions. I could elaborate for a very long time on each of these, but it's money. Money is broken. That's the root.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Mr. Magniloquent

[Guard Dog]

 

 

I am almost positive we had a thread about this awhile back, where we discussed the same video.

Really? I must have missed it.

It was a while ago when the video first came out. It's definitely closer to reality now though. As for the robots will rise up and kill us thing, I hope science fiction has taught us to treat robots with respect when they achieve sentience.

 

If you could have your own personal live-in #8 would you treat her with respect? 

[obyknven]

 

The only solution: communism, socialism, or a guaranteed basic income for everyone.  If anyone can think of any other solution, let's hear it.

Communism improssible without fight against opressors. Because Western Lefties reject armed struggle all these blah-blah about communism stay just blahah... until citiezens of Third world don't destroy First world. 

[HoonDing]

"Communism is coming back"

 

At least one can count on Drumpf nuking it from orbit.

[kgambit]

"Communism is coming back"

 

At least one can count on Drumpf nuking it from orbit.

 

It's the only way to be sure ...... 

[BruceVC]

 

 

It is already here: San Francisco's first automated restaurant is 'pure magic'

 

So what will be the problem?

 

Here is the problem: The current system favors people who own capitals and wealth.  The top one-percenters will own all the automation that will replace human workers. They alone will benefit from the AI and automation revolution when human workers become obsolete. They and their robot workers will suck up and hoard all the money and wealth. Everyone else will be out of a job and broke.  A lot, a lot, of people will be out of a job and broke.  

 

The only solution: communism, socialism, or a guaranteed basic income for everyone.  If anyone can think of any other solution, let's hear it.

For your only solution you've managed to list three different things.

 

Communism would only happen after Socialism and the absence of the state. I highly doubt the latter is going to happen anytime soon while the former is unlikely to happen without some major upheavals.

 

Socialism would require a large shift in material conditions and probably a revolution or civil war. Mass automation would certainly be that shift, but I highly doubt socialists could overcome sectarianism to build a united front.

 

UBI is the most plausible, and will likely be used in place of current welfare programs and as a supplement to low-wage jobs.

 

We dont only have 3 solutions guys

 

We have solution  4  where we continue to support the free market and Capitalism but we still look at ways to be more inclusive, corporations can be involved in mentorship programs and can provide opportunities to people that have the skills but lack the necessary resumes 

 

In fact its silly to suggest we only have 3 options....that is myopic view of the reality as we have many options 

[Namutree]

You fail to understand the root, because you do not understand what money is.

 

Money is a technology which facilitates trade by acting as an abstraction for tangible wealth and labor. To do this, the money needs to be firmly cemented in reality--because goods and labor are both real. Gold and silver have been the best medium for this for many reasons. See The Regression Theorem for more.

 

The problem today, and for the last century is that money has been destroyed. It is no longer money--a store of value, it's a debt based currency. Fiat. By command. When the link between money and tangible reality (scarcity) is broken or corrupted, it becomes a "something for nothing" scheme. Think Wiemar Germany. You create something of value, I trade you paper...or today, ephemeral electronic bits at zero cost for your very real good/service.

 

This has destroyed pricing, capital accumulation, and investment. Those most closely connected to the spigot enjoy at scenario where "Heads they win, Tails you lose" by buying assets (which nominally appreciate) before the currency is debased. This is the principle reason why the wealth divides have increased so significantly. It's also the reason why the world economy has ground to a halt. Prices are massively distorted, and capital is not self-preserving in this environment. It forces people into assets, creating bubbles and malinvestment writ large.

 

Your guaranteed income doesn't solve this problem. It actually exacerbates it. Not only that, but it creates perverse incentive and requires even more State interference to function. To work, an economy would effectively have to formally and fully Sovietize, where this guaranteed income stipend would function as a system of rationing.

 

There are alot more reasons. Every economy in the entire world is onerous burdened by extraordinary (cascading) levels of taxation and regulatory burden. Outside of black markets, there is not a single free or capitalist economy in the entire world. That's a huge part of the equation, but money is at the root. The use of robotics is only a symptom, because human capital has been out-priced by these market distortions. I could elaborate for a very long time on each of these, but it's money. Money is broken. That's the root.

That's a nice rant and all, but technological advancement would have occurred regardless of our currency. Machines replacing human labor is the primary concern of this video.

[Valsuelm]

 

You fail to understand the root, because you do not understand what money is.

 

Money is a technology which facilitates trade by acting as an abstraction for tangible wealth and labor. To do this, the money needs to be firmly cemented in reality--because goods and labor are both real. Gold and silver have been the best medium for this for many reasons. See The Regression Theorem for more.

 

The problem today, and for the last century is that money has been destroyed. It is no longer money--a store of value, it's a debt based currency. Fiat. By command. When the link between money and tangible reality (scarcity) is broken or corrupted, it becomes a "something for nothing" scheme. Think Wiemar Germany. You create something of value, I trade you paper...or today, ephemeral electronic bits at zero cost for your very real good/service.

 

This has destroyed pricing, capital accumulation, and investment. Those most closely connected to the spigot enjoy at scenario where "Heads they win, Tails you lose" by buying assets (which nominally appreciate) before the currency is debased. This is the principle reason why the wealth divides have increased so significantly. It's also the reason why the world economy has ground to a halt. Prices are massively distorted, and capital is not self-preserving in this environment. It forces people into assets, creating bubbles and malinvestment writ large.

 

Your guaranteed income doesn't solve this problem. It actually exacerbates it. Not only that, but it creates perverse incentive and requires even more State interference to function. To work, an economy would effectively have to formally and fully Sovietize, where this guaranteed income stipend would function as a system of rationing.

 

There are alot more reasons. Every economy in the entire world is onerous burdened by extraordinary (cascading) levels of taxation and regulatory burden. Outside of black markets, there is not a single free or capitalist economy in the entire world. That's a huge part of the equation, but money is at the root. The use of robotics is only a symptom, because human capital has been out-priced by these market distortions. I could elaborate for a very long time on each of these, but it's money. Money is broken. That's the root.

That's a nice rant and all, but technological advancement would have occurred regardless of our currency. Machines replacing human labor is the primary concern of this video.

 

 

It wasn't really a rant. It was an attempt at explaining a problem fundamental to what the video is getting at, yet doesn't mention because the makers of it don't see/understand it. In fact, most people don't (even though it's not even remotely rocket science), which is the #1 reason why it's even a problem to begin with.

[Darkpriest]

 

 

Considering today's most highly regarded version of "socialism" is clearly a variant of capitalism I'd say the winds are going the other direction. Socialism failed to be "inevitable" back when there was something resembling a genuine socialist movement.

So what is your solution to the the coming AI and robot revolution that will replace most every type of job with automation?

People were also afraid of industrial revolution and here we are still growing the economy and wealth...

 

The economy will look different and the minimum wage easy to replace jobs will get automated but there are still other venues of services and business. Economy will just evolve, but until we can actually produce androids with AI competing on all levels with human brain, you have no need to worry. And once we will reach that level of AI development then there will be more concerning things to handle.

 

Economy cannot function if there is no money turnover.

[Meshugger]

As long as we think that human progress is determined by different systems of redistribution of wealth and goods; and the virtues of created by them, like productivity, consumption, then there's going to be a pendelum contineously swinging left and right on who is more deserving of those goods.

[BruceVC]

As long as we think that human progress is determined by different systems of redistribution of wealth and goods; and the virtues of created by them, like productivity, consumption, then there's going to be a pendelum contineously swinging left and right on who is more deserving of those goods.

So how should human progress be determined? Because things like education for all, curing diseases and reducing poverty require money and countries that have strong economies to fund the initiatives to address some of the global issues the world grapples with ..and these should be examples of real human progress

 

For example the West has given more financial aid to Africa than any other group of countries...and the West is ..like you know....primarily a Capitalist block. This is a huge conundrum because the West is flawed and false right? Oh yes and let us not forget the most obvious contradiction to this " anti-Western " sentiment. The West is so bad but everyone wants to immigrate to the West...even the people who hate it  

 

[obyknven]

 

For example the West has given more financial aid to Africa than any other group of countries...and the West is ..like you know....primarily a Capitalist block. 

 

 

Explanation is simple - it's profitable.\

 

1. Make show about starved Africans (photos with corpses and guro)

2. Steal big summs from US budget ( from taxpayers ) for "Help to Africa". Profit

3. But money must be washed. Government buy food from US corporate food producers... yes, corporations have profit also.

4. Aid can be delivered only by US logistical corporations. yep, moneybags have profit again.

5. In Africa aid... selled to starved countries. Profit!

6. Price of cheap Murican food is smaller then price of food from African food producers - African food producers become bankrupt - African country afetr Western "help" can't feed yourself and forced to buy US food constantly (scheme so similar to how drug dealers spread narcotics ). New market conquered by Murican product - Profit again!

7. White colonialist BruceVC post propaganda about how white colonialists make good things for African peoples.

8. Africans starved not becuse lack of food in country, but because lack of money - their economics become ruined. Capitalists go to 1 and repeat all again in infinite loop.  

 

http://www.rense.com/general77/usaid.htm

 

 

De Telegraaf newspaper in Amsterdam reports today on page 11 that the international aid agency CARE has rejected an American USAID food donation of R45-million -- because the American food-aid is 'inefficient and very damaging to Africa farmers'.

 

 

 

P.S. Bruce use substitution of concepts (non-surprisingly for propagandist) when talking about Capitalists. Capitalists are owners of businesses only, ordinary citizens of the Western countries are NOT capitalists (they more close to... brainwashed slaves), and they don't have real reasons fapped to Capitalistic masters so much as Bruce want this.

[Blarghagh]

Wow, oby posted something that actually has truth in it. Human rights organisations here are now lobbying for the removal of "Humana-Boxes" which are large containers that are located at a lot of places in the Netherlands where you can put clothes and other fabrics that you want to donate, because sending all those clothes there has absolutely destroyed the clothing industry in the areas it goes to and left it worse off. Sometimes charity isn't.

[BruceVC]

 

 

For example the West has given more financial aid to Africa than any other group of countries...and the West is ..like you know....primarily a Capitalist block. 

 

 

Explanation is simple - it's profitable.\

 

1. Make show about starved Africans (photos with corpses and guro)

2. Steal big summs from US budget ( from taxpayers ) for "Help to Africa". Profit

3. But money must be washed. Government buy food from US corporate food producers... yes, corporations have profit also.

4. Aid can be delivered only by US logistical corporations. yep, moneybags have profit again.

5. In Africa aid... selled to starved countries. Profit!

6. Price of cheap Murican food is smaller then price of food from African food producers - African food producers become bankrupt - African country afetr Western "help" can't feed yourself and forced to buy US food constantly (scheme so similar to how drug dealers spread narcotics ). New market conquered by Murican product - Profit again!

7. White colonialist BruceVC post propaganda about how white colonialists make good things for African peoples.

8. Africans starved not becuse lack of food in country, but because lack of money - their economics become ruined. Capitalists go to 1 and repeat all again in infinite loop.  

 

http://www.rense.com/general77/usaid.htm

 

 

De Telegraaf newspaper in Amsterdam reports today on page 11 that the international aid agency CARE has rejected an American USAID food donation of R45-million -- because the American food-aid is 'inefficient and very damaging to Africa farmers'.

 

 

 

P.S. Bruce use substitution of concepts (non-surprisingly for propagandist) when talking about Capitalists. Capitalists are owners of businesses only, ordinary citizens of the Western countries are NOT capitalists (they more close to... brainwashed slaves), and they don't have real reasons fapped to Capitalistic masters so much as Bruce want this.

 

Sorry Oby but I reject almost your entire post as nothing more than "anti-Western " propaganda 

 

 

In Africa this is the reality

 

• There are starving children, there are countries that have known nothing but grinding poverty for hundreds of years..yes Oby poverty and suffering is real in Africa. Its not all countries of course but it must exist in 15-20  %. And the West has provided lots of aid to these countries, its a fact. Check how much aid Russia has given Africa?
• Almost all African countries had to get loans from the IMF in the 1980's due to mismanagement of there economies after Colonialism ended. Yes ex-Colonialist countries can take some responsibility but ultimately it was a series of bad African leaders who made bad decisions  that lead to economic collapse of many African countries ..so you cant blame the West for this 
• No one  says " colonial " in regards to Africa. Its offensive and reminds people of a difficult and painful history  

Edited March 21, 2016 by BruceVC

[Guard Dog]

Oh no.... it has already begun: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2016/03/18/domino-pizza-delivery-drone-hits-road/?intcmp=hphz12

 

I'd like to see that little S.O.B get a pizza down MY road!