Deflection and Resolve...

[Brimsurfer]

Deflection is governed by Resolve, now I am trying to figure out how come a Character's Resolve help him Deflect incoming blows? Resolve refers to a characters internal drive, determination and emotional intensity not sure how is it helping that character to Deflect incoming blows......

 

On the other hand successfully deflecting or stopping a blow requires considerable physical strength and combat awareness, now these two qualities are covered by Might (refers to physical strength of a character as per in-game description) and Perception (refers to characters ability to notice things, may also contribute to characters awareness in combat, like noticing enemies' movements and etc)

 

So to me it appears that Might and Perception should determine a character's ability to successfully Deflect incoming blows rather than Resolve, which should contribute towards ability auras and duration, multiple saving throws and may be resistances and spell success chance as well since it refers to, as mentioned above, a character's internal drive, determination and emotional intensity..... 

 

Just my thoughts on Deflection and Resolve.....I am sure I'll hear some heavy criticism from the people who are use to current system but......... what the heck, I can take it

Edited March 10, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Njall]

Characters in PoE don't need a weapon to actually deflect a blow: as you can see when you take off their melee weapon and wade into combat, their deflection score isn't penalized.

Thus, we can infer that PoE's characters deflect most blows with nothing but their teeth.

That takes a significant amount of resolve to execute properly.

[Brimsurfer]

Characters in PoE don't need a weapon to actually deflect a blow: as you can see when you take off their melee weapon and wade into combat, their deflection score isn't penalized.

Thus, we can infer that PoE's characters deflect most blows with nothing but their teeth.

That takes a significant amount of resolve to execute properly.

Which is kind of mind numbing but still pretty sure you need physical prowess and combat awareness more than just internal drive to deflect incoming blows....actually awareness and ability to notice enemy movements tops the list in this scenario......

[Braven]

I think the idea is that characters with higher resolve are able to "shrug off" minor blows because of their superior determination. Think of it more like "tolerating" wounds than "blocking" wounds. Sort of like how people who are trained to be able to resist pain and torture if captured. It is not physical strength allowing this, but superior willpower.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Braven

[Baron Pampa]

The thing is, enemies usually target your teeth with highest priority, so neither awareness nor prowess help deflecting. It's just about beeing a man and letting them strike. Thus, a resolved character is better at deflecting and none of the other attributes help.

[Brimsurfer]

To me Resolve seems like an attribute that is more related to the strength of personality and character......internal drive, determination and emotional intensity , these are the traits that strengthens one's personality gives him / her a formidable presence / aura and ability to influence others and shrug off influences cast by others rather than deflecting physical damage or injury....

[Elerond]

The truth of the matter is that deflecting blows needs extreme skill and you can get that only by repeating boring fight stand practices until you can't stand them anymore, and characters with highest resolve are ones that highest ability to tolerate such soul sucking workouts. And characters with super high resolve can just will enemy blows away with their teeth. 

[Ink Blot]

I don't think there's any logical way to explain it. All they did was put it on Resolve in order to try to eliminate some uber builds, from what I understand.

[gkathellar]

The character dulls blows and hardens their defense with spiritual energy shaped by the sheer desire to survive and continue forward.

 

Everything in PoE is improved by remembering that the entire setting runs on spiritual power,

 

I don't think there's any logical way to explain it. All they did was put it on Resolve in order to try to eliminate some uber builds, from what I understand.

Not quite. Originally, in the beta, no stat governed Deflection, and Dex added to accuracy. That approach wasn't working for reasons, so they replaced it with +Speed from Dex and +Def from Perception and Resolve, since neither were very good and both fit

 

At some point post-launch, Josh started freaking out about Deflection stacking (not totally unjustified), and switched the bonus on Perception to accuracy.

Edited March 10, 2016 by gkathellar

[AndreaColombo]

Actually during the beta days there was an iteration of the beta in which PER gave +2 Accuracy per point. They changed it shortly thereafter because it was everyone's must-pump stat (+16 Accuracy from maxing out PER at character creation was massive), but instead of making a sensible change to +1 Accuracy, they changed it to +1 Deflection even though RES was already giving Deflection in the first place.

 

This resulted in the (silly) system we had at launch, with two stats contributing to Deflection and none to Accuracy. Of course Deflection would stack (and enemies would have no Accuracy bonus from PER) so pure tanks were unbeatable. Add to that the poor A.I. that would make of tank and spank a winning strategy, and you get the need for a change.

 

I've always considered Deflection on RES to be a matter of pure exclusion: Deflection had to be somewhere and all other stats were already doing something else (and fitting.) Not that I'm particularly bothered by it myself.

[Brimsurfer]

Actually during the beta days there was an iteration of the beta in which PER gave +2 Accuracy per point. They changed it shortly thereafter because it was everyone's must-pump stat (+16 Accuracy from maxing out PER at character creation was massive), but instead of making a sensible change to +1 Accuracy, they changed it to +1 Deflection even though RES was already giving Deflection in the first place.

 

This resulted in the (silly) system we had at launch, with two stats contributing to Deflection and none to Accuracy. Of course Deflection would stack (and enemies would have no Accuracy bonus from PER) so pure tanks were unbeatable. Add to that the poor A.I. that would make of tank and spank a winning strategy, and you get the need for a change.

 

I've always considered Deflection on RES to be a matter of pure exclusion: Deflection had to be somewhere and all other stats were already doing something else (and fitting.) Not that I'm particularly bothered by it myself.

 

 

I know Perception use to contribute to Deflection score before but putting it on Resolve doesn't make much sense because Resolve is something entirely different, it generally pertains to a character's inner strength e.g. mental and emotional prowess and should contribute to stuff like ability auras and duration, saving throws, spell success chance etc, (will also help Pallys and Chanters too I guess, because then you won't have to go out of your way to increase your intel for aura size or duration) and Deflection should probably come under one of the attributes of physical nature, like Dexterity or Perception or Might or even Constitution but to do that they may have to go back to drawing board and figure out which attribute should contribute to what ........

 

Or perhaps they should probably add Deflection to Armors and may be Dexterity or Perception can add to it partially at a lower rate or not at all........same as BG and IWD games, where Dexterity contributed to Armor Class and you could also get it from Armors too......

 

But at the moment it doesn't look right on Resolve, if I think about it.......

Edited March 10, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Brimsurfer]

The character dulls blows and hardens their defense with spiritual energy shaped by the sheer desire to survive and continue forward.

 

Everything in PoE is improved by remembering that the entire setting runs on spiritual power,

 

 

Spiritual Power is Might and not Resolve as per in-game description......

 

Might covers both Physical and Spiritual Power of a character as per in-game description.......baffling isn't it  ..

 

Edit: And if Might can cover the both north and south pole of all physical and non physical power, then I am not sure why can't Perception add to Accuracy and Deflection both and Deflection is removed entirely from Resolve.......also I have never seen a front liner who can't hit the broad side of a barn even with a banjo, it should also help tankers to have some what decent accuracy.....

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[Ymarsakar]

I had a bigger problem with the narration dialogue lines for resolve and might, still thinking of them as charisma and strength... old DD habits I guess for them to break.

 

As for my logic behind resolve, I think of it as looking straight at a weapon coming at them, or an arrow. If they are afraid or they panic, their body doesn't react in time or freezes.

 

Without willpower, a lot of attacks or defenses can be bungled in physical life. Hunting. Evading blows using dexterity skills, rather than gross motor running. People who are overcome by fear and panic can still do the running, but not the more complicated stuff.

 

I don't use stats to role play. That's never been something I've used, actually. Although I know table top games and other stuff, uses them all the time.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[gkathellar]

Might is spiritual power, the ability to Make Things Happen - hence why it affects both damage and healing. Resolve (as the name implies) is direction and conviction, the ability to Overcome Opposition, which is why it prevents interrupts and allows a person to withstand or avoid direct injury.

 

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Edited March 11, 2016 by gkathellar

[globalCooldown]

Resolve helps with deflection because characters with absurd amounts of Resolve are just flat-out impossible to kill. Haven't you played Undertale?

[Brimsurfer]

Resolve (as the name implies) is direction and conviction, the ability to Overcome Opposition

 

 

 

That's not what the in-game description says, although this may be construed from a certain angle and if we are considering derived meanings, synonyms and common dictionary definitions then its going to get really really confusing because then attributes like Constitution and Intelligence will cover heck of a lot more ground and there will be overlapping everywhere.........but even with your dictionary meaning, I don't see Resolve helping one to deflect incoming physical blows as a directly governing attribute...... 

 

To me Deflection falls more in the territory of either Perception, Dexterity or Might........but I guess you are entitled to have your convictions

Edited March 11, 2016 by Brimsurfer

[AndreaColombo]

The problem with putting Deflection on DEX or PER is that RES would become useless, and the other stat would become too good unless you removed the bonus it already gives (and I think bonuses currently given are all fitting and good except the case in point, which isn't super fitting.)

 

Perhaps swap Accuracy and Deflection across PER and RES? But honestly, would that make that much of a difference at this point?

[Luckmann]

Might is spiritual power, the ability to Make Things Happen - hence why it affects both damage and healing. Resolve (as the name implies) is direction and conviction, the ability to Overcome Opposition, which is why it prevents interrupts and allows a person to withstand or avoid direct injury.

 

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

It's also the party line, but it stands in stark contrast to the reality of how Might is depicted within the game.

[Rosveen]

How about swiching Deflection and Fortitude? Resolve, i.e. internal drive and perseverance, is very useful in overcoming disease and other conditions weakening the whole body. In regards to direct physical blows, I think Resolve would help you not as much parry it as carry on despite sustained injuries.

[falchen]

It's just gameplay balance, what the stats are named might as well be arbitrary. If it bothers you just pretend Deflection is called Defense and Resolve is Toughness.

[Parasol_Syndicate]

I totally persuaded that guy to do the right thing. Because I'm Tough. 

[falchen]

Again, just gameplay, the stats are there to create a balanced character system. There's no real reason for intelignece to make your spells bigger and last longer, you could easilly argue might or resolve should be doing that. It's especially funny in case of barbarians where inteligence somehow mages them stay angry longer and let them swing their weapons much further.

 

That said most of the resolve conversation options do come of as bullying, int or per is used for actually making arguments or using logic.

Edited March 11, 2016 by falchen

[Ymarsakar]

 

Resolve (as the name implies) is direction and conviction, the ability to Overcome Opposition

 

 

 

That's not what the in-game description says, although this may be construed from a certain angle and if we are considering derived meanings, synonyms and common dictionary definitions then its going to get really really confusing because then attributes like Constitution and Intelligence will cover heck of a lot more ground and there will be overlapping everywhere.........but even with your dictionary meaning, I don't see Resolve helping one to deflect incoming physical blows as a directly governing attribute...... 

 

To me Deflection falls more in the territory of either Perception, Dexterity or Might........but I guess you are entitled to have your convictions

 

 

A lot of that would depend on personal experience. Have you physically deflected blows in martial arts or melee combat?

 

If so, what did you use, dexterity, skill, determination?

 

If role playing stats are supposed to be playing a role, then the argument is easily settled by going back to the source. The physical role itself.

[KDubya]

Consider the huge deflection on a Dragon. What causes that - matrix like dodging or scales so thick that there are only a few small vulnerable areas that can even cause damage? I think it is due to the small vulnerable areas not matrix dodging. I think of Resolve as a similar situation - through sheer willpower you shrug off the effects of an attack.

[Crucis]

The problem with putting Deflection on DEX or PER is that RES would become useless, and the other stat would become too good unless you removed the bonus it already gives (and I think bonuses currently given are all fitting and good except the case in point, which isn't super fitting.)

 

Perhaps swap Accuracy and Deflection across PER and RES? But honestly, would that make that much of a difference at this point?

 

While I understand this sentiment, I think that there are flaws across the board in how things are linked to various attributes.

 

For example, I think the idea that all classes have INT affect the duration of spells/abilities and size of AoE of their spells and/or abilities is bad.  It's too generic and creates some class builds that just plain look silly to me.  IMO, the proper way to handle "duration and size of AoE" is that it should be linked to different attributes for different classes.  Of course, some classes would properly continue to use INT for this, like Wizards and, I suppose, Chanters.  OTOH, I'd think that a classes like Paladin and Priest should have this tied to RES, since it's the strength of their belief that should be enhancing their spells and powers.  Come to think of it, it might come down to either INT (strength of intelligence) or RES (strength of willpower and/or belief) on this for most classes.  Indeed, looked at this way, RES wouldn't seem to be a weak stat at all, at least if you value increased "duration or spells/abilities and size of AoE" for your characters.

 

As for Deflection, I still think that it should be linked to DEX, since DEFL is about avoiding taking a hit and one's agility would seem to me to be the primary determining factor there. 

 

Of course, I also believe that the "weight" of one's armor should affect a character's deflection, and create a trade off between having a high DR and having a high DEFL.  I would suggest that for every 5% points of recovery time lost you also lose 1 point of DEFL.  Maybe 2 per.  The point would be that the higher the DR of an armor is (ignoring enchantments), the more it hinders your ability to avoid taking hits.  And visa-versa, the lighter an armor is, the lower its DR is (again, ignoring enchantments), the better your DEFL is.  The result would be or seem to be that you'd very well protected but somewhat easier to hit guys wearing heavy armor.  And you've have some characters wearing light armor who are nimble as heck and hard to hit, but easier to damage when you do hit them.  And you might have some characters wearing medium armor who are trying to balance protection (DR) and agility (DEFL).

 

 

Anyways, enough of this theorycrafting for now...