The great Rogue polishing thread

[cavemandiary]

That's not surprising. In the end rogue has no aoe damage and classes with aoe damage (monk, barbarian, cipher etc) will still out damage a rogue over the course of the game. Rogue is really a specialized mage killer, slap boots of haste on him and send him into the mage back ranks of the enemy to decimate them. Thats what he is good at.

I know. I was specifically referring to singletarget dps (in the case of the monk, not the barb)

 

My monk can do that as well. Not AS effectively (80-90% as good by rough estimates), but with way way less risk involved (and no per rest)

 

Of course, maybe I'm just not a good poe rogue player. This is my current rogue (with items and skills, but not buffed in any way)

 

Hearth Orlan - lvl 14

 

Might: 17

Con: 15

Dex: 22

Per: 25

Int: 5

Res: 13

 

Dmg: 17-24 and 19-27, 5 armor penetration (fully upgraded unlabured blade, steadfast)

with frenzy, attacks with no downtime between attacks.

HP: 240

Acc: 121/111

 

Dmg reduction: 14 (durgan enforced wayfarers hide)

70 deflection, 79 F, 113 R, 60 W.

 

Abilities:

Blinding Strike

Withering Strike

Deathblows

Escape

Finishing Blow

Reckless Assault

Shadowing Beyond

 

Two weapon style

Vulnerable Attack

Bloody Slaughter

Outlanders Frenzy

Weapon Focus

Superior Deflection

 

Maybe I should lower my con a few points in lieu of might, then get more crit instead of escape?

Edited March 2, 2016 by cavemandiary

[Ymarsakar]

Rogue probably needs a modal that is part shadow, part backstab, part evasion. They only started getting into hit to graze conversions around 2.0 white march 1, like the paladin's new zealous endurance modal.  But it really would have worked better for rebalancing some rogue abilities and new modals.

 

I say modal, because choosing a mix of them can be a nice gameplay in itself, without having to use per rest or per encounter attacks. And making it into a modal ability like shapeshift, with a duration, might also be interesting. That would allow shadowstep back to work on manual activation/de-activation at least.

[Elric Galad]

 

Wizard doesn't get it per 2/encounter. If it were deemed that an improvement is necessary, I'd rather see some debuff like daze or maybe short stun when it is used against an enemy - with too big range the ability would get pretty crazy. When saving a squishy, usually a melee rogue can outdamage anyone in 1vs1 fight, especially with his debuffing full attacks, and even moreso with some disable-on-crit weapon. But if that's not the case you can always switch position with the enemy.

I still believe a little buff would be nice. After all, it has already been buffed since 1.0.

 

Anyway, it is probably not the rogue ability that requires the most Love&Care.

 

 

I just realized that coordinate positionning was apparently set to 4s. I have no clue when it happened. It is pretty satisfying now.

 

It was set from 2.0 to 2.5m in 2.01 (just found the patch notes). I guess they upgraded it several times.

[Hayte]

In game the description of Cape of the Master Mystic says invisibility on crit = 1 per encounter? Where is the 2 per encounter thing coming from?

[Jojobobo]

I think the only recommendation I would make is either using the OP's version of Riposte, or increasing the chance of full attack on miss to 40-50%. That way, it would be a little more worthwhile. Full attack on graze 20% of the time may be a little over powered given the Rogue's natural high damage and accuracy.

[Braven]

I have been playing around with a backstabbing rogue for a solo build. It is now more interesting since it was changed to 150% extra damage. I have noticed some strange things with dual wielding and full attacks. If you use a full attack ability (like crippling strike), only the second attack gets the backstabs for some reason if backstabbing from stealth. Hoever, if you backstab using a normal attack, both weapons get the bonus backstab damage. Unless interrupted before the second weapon hits. In that case the second weapon does not get the backstab.

 

It is annoying that activated abilities work differently then an auto attack; seems like a bug. To mitigate, I have been doing normal, dual weapon attacks for opening backstabs and then following that up with the full-attack activated abilities to clean up other minions.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

It's superannoying. If you want to backstab with a gun (what would be the best opener) and use a special attack (includes Finishing Blow) from stealth or invisibility, backstab isn't triggered at all. You have to use a normal shot. What's that stupidness?

[Jojobobo]

To be honest, most of the time I find it a little better to save those per encounter abilities anyway. Sure your alpha strike isn't as strong as it would be if the game wasn't bugged, but it means you can dish out more consistent strong hits over the course of the encounter.

[Elric Galad]

Runner's shot working with backstab would be the very definition of sniping. 80% lash on a +150% damages (+others) attack would not be a joke.

[Braven]

To be honest, most of the time I find it a little better to save those per encounter abilities anyway. Sure your alpha strike isn't as strong as it would be if the game wasn't bugged, but it means you can dish out more consistent strong hits over the course of the encounter.

Good point. Often the extra damage is overkill and afflictions don't matter if the enemy is dead (or even one small hit off)

 

Currently the big guns do more damage for a backstab opener, even with both weapons triggering backstabs, as a level 5 (maybe that will change with switch to sabers and melee exclusive talents), but dual weapons are faster for the next action which is more important, I think, since both are usually overkill.  I am experimenting with a high CON dwarf rogue with dumped INT and Resolve (will save is mostly useless when soloing anyways and things die so fast that affliction duration doesn't really matter). I am hoping to find some stronghold items to fix the concentration problem of low resolve.

 

The goal of my build is to take all of the per/rest abilities and max potential when only considering a single battle.  Some of the optional battles I just sneak past with high stealth to save time/abilities, so overall not really resting much more.  Off the top of my head, there are now at least six ways to get backstabs for a single battle: Stealth, 2x Shadowing, the soulbound mace, cape of master mystic, and feign death. Makes the backstab talent quite nice. There are also some nice items with rogue powers, like the tax collectors mantle.

 

A lot of people hate on backstab, but if you think about it 6x150 is 900x total damage increase.  Most people think talents that increase damage by 15% (without downsides) is pretty good, but it would take 60 attacks to equal the damage of backstab, which realistically isn't happening.  And I am not even taking into consideration the DR penalty all those additional attacks would incur or the fact that immediate damage is much better than slow damage.  A lot of people take weapon mastery as a fighter which is only a 10% additive damage bonus, 90 times worse!

 

 

---

For this build, I am considering two options:

 

I could retrain most of the CON into INT for shod in faith, veterans, deep wounds, venom, feign death, and invisible duration.  With that setup, I would use double Bittercut sabers for the vile-thorns / deep wounds synergy and also take spirit of decay. Because INT modifies invisibility duration, I could passively heal with veterans/shod-in-faith while invisible and watch enemies slowly bleed to death from deep wounds.  You can also switch weapons and reload weapons while invisible, which is kind of like an action speed boost.  Nice thing about solo is that your team mates aren't dying while you are waiting in the shadows preparing to strike next.

 

The other option is to forgo INT completely (and save talents by not taking deep wounds, veterans, venom...).  For healing, double "Purgatory" sabers (copied with wax) backstabs is basically a lay-on-hands up to 6 times per battle in the late game and doesn't take any actions or require Intelligence.  With the large health pool, purgatory healing will be well supported.  This setup has less good talent options, but that is okay because backstab already eats up two of them and optimal melee damage requires a few more.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Braven

[Jojobobo]

Sounds like a pretty sweet build, making the most out of invisibility backstabs as many different ways as possible. I'd normally advocate high INT, but to be honest base 10 seconds should be enough after a per encounter ability to then use invisibility and get in a Deathblows backstab.

 

For the stronghold items (Belt of Chimes and Swaddling Sheet), you'll need to send a companion to get them - so it depends how strictly you want to solo (as in, you can recruit a companion just for that purpose but then the game will state you've had someone in your party). If that's the kind of thing that'll bother you retraining some points into RES, or chugging Spirit Shield potions like no tomorrow. It's a bit of a shame there isn't a talent to boost concentration, as it seems by not having one you're only really penalising solo players as party players can just get the aforementioned items.

 

I'd love to see a class build when you get far along with this build, I'm currently playing through with my own tank Rogue on solo which I'm waiting to crack into the game with until posting up the build (it's already written up).

[Elric Galad]

I start wondering if priest spell Salvation of time work with feign death persisting invisibility. So with 16s + Int of invisibility (renewable by your priest buddy) +150% damages from backstqb (plus usual sneak attack, deathblow, reckless assault), rogue would have access to PoE godmode...

Edited April 15, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Braven]

Runner's shot working with backstab would be the very definition of sniping. 80% lash on a +150% damages (+others) attack would not be a joke.

 

Runners shot does seem really nice for alpha strikes and is one of my planned talents.    Hopefully it will actually work with backstab.  Only downside is that it is a primary attack, so not as good with dual weapons.  Would be great with a gun backstab, if it works.  There is really no reason not to use both dual weapons and a gun since you can switch weapons with (effectively) zero recovery penalty if you do so while invisible.  With decent INT, you could probably reload even the biggest gun while invisible before the duration runs out without the any talent investment.  If playing solo there is no rush to come out of invisibility.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Braven

[Braven]

Sounds like a pretty sweet build, making the most out of invisibility backstabs as many different ways as possible. I'd normally advocate high INT, but to be honest base 10 seconds should be enough after a per encounter ability to then use invisibility and get in a Deathblows backstab.

 

For the stronghold items (Belt of Chimes and Swaddling Sheet), you'll need to send a companion to get them - so it depends how strictly you want to solo (as in, you can recruit a companion just for that purpose but then the game will state you've had someone in your party). If that's the kind of thing that'll bother you retraining some points into RES, or chugging Spirit Shield potions like no tomorrow. It's a bit of a shame there isn't a talent to boost concentration, as it seems by not having one you're only really penalising solo players as party players can just get the aforementioned items.

 

I'd love to see a class build when you get far along with this build, I'm currently playing through with my own tank Rogue on solo which I'm waiting to crack into the game with until posting up the build (it's already written up).

 

 

I usually advocate INT and have a lower opinion of CON.  Most rogue build would benefit more from INT because the afflictions also helps the party or they want to maximize deep wounds, however, for this build, you don't need super long durations to make deathblows viable because everything dies within a few seconds anyways if you have a high attack speed (part of the reason I use dual weapons) and massive backstabs.   On the other hand, CON is really helpful since there is no room in the build for endurance regeneration (outside of draining weapons) and solo builds need more endurance since they take all the hits.  

 

In the late game, 10 INT is still possible by shifting over the rest bonus (+3 int) and wearing the +4 int ring.  Base durations should be enough to get deathblows and sneak attacks off.

 

I don't strictly play solo (not going for an achievement).  I am okay having guys hangout in the stronghold (no way I am giving up the stronghold items).  One advantage of going solo is that some abilities no longer seem so bad.  Feign Death seems bad since it prevents you from contributing to the battle for 10 seconds or so.  But with solo, it is not a bad thing since enemies will just wait there for you to get back up and you get a big heal and invisibility (and backstab) out of it, which is great.  I'll do some kind of write up after I finish.  I will try a couple combinations and see which I like better with retraining, as far as the INT/CON/RES balance and whether to go with double BitterCuts or Double Purgatory. Bittercuts are more damaging I think, but the healing from Purgatory could be really useful.

 

One bad thing about backstabs is that you can't really "open" with something like a potion.  When you start combat you are already surrounded.  I am thinking of utilizing the "escape" ability to get away after backstabbing in order to get some breathing room to summon figurines or drink a potion.  In wide open areas, you could also probably backstab/escape/stealth/repeat to get more value from backstab and note use up per/rest abilities.  You don't even need to take the actual escape ability since there are a couple good items that already have it (cape of the cheat and tax collectors mantle), though eventually you will want to replace those with Cape of the Master Mystic since that is core to the build (if it isn't still bugged)

 

If you are not against retraining in the late-game, I would say that low INT is always best early on since you won't get the talents/items/abilities to take advantage of INT until late game.   Belt of chimes comes with -1 Stealth which is not great with this build, and the Binding Rope  belt is really great since it has synergy with sneak attack and death blows.

 

Now that I think about it more, Resolve should probably be around 10 just for the concentration since there are better items for the equipment slots.  That still leaves around 10 for CON which is probably all that is actually needed.  I wish there were more ways to boost concentration without spells/potions.  

Edited April 15, 2016 by Braven

[Staehrminator]

I've made a mod that improves the Rogue's abilities, you can get it here!

 

https://reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/4ex36c/eternity1_balance_mod_alpha_testers_wanted/

[Kaylon]

Runner's shot working with backstab would be the very definition of sniping. 80% lash on a +150% damages (+others) attack would not be a joke.

Runner's shot (and Wounding shot) doesn't work like a lash - the 80% is applied to the final damage (after DR) ie it sucks vs high DR targets.

[Braven]

 

Runner's shot working with backstab would be the very definition of sniping. 80% lash on a +150% damages (+others) attack would not be a joke.

Runner's shot (and Wounding shot) doesn't work like a lash - the 80% is applied to the final damage (after DR) ie it sucks vs high DR targets.

 

 

Even so, when you are hitting for well over 100 with a single backstab (I was doing over 100 even at level 2 with a crossbow), high DR will only eat up a small percent of the total damage so it will still do a ton of extra damage.

 

Because it is per-encounter, you could just shoot, escape (with boots of speed and/or rogue ability) and get the backstab/wounding/escape back again.  You don't have to worry about the enemy healing back up because it is dead from the snipe.  Most of the bounties are in open fields so that strategy should work for those battles.  All you need is a level 4 rogue.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Braven

[Braven]

I sadly discovered that savage attack does not stack with reckless assault. They suppress each other.

[DreamWayfarer]

I sadly discovered that savage attack does not stack with reckless assault. They suppress each other.

If only modals made sense...

[Boeroer]

I sadly discovered that savage attack does not stack with reckless assault. They suppress each other.

Yeah - this is pretty new. It wasn't like that when I played my last melee rogue in a complete playthrough (around 2.0 or so). 

[Elric Galad]

I start wondering if priest spell Salvation of time work with feign death persisting invisibility. So with 16s + Int of invisibility (renewable by your priest buddy) +150% damages from backstqb (plus usual sneak attack, deathblow, reckless assault), rogue would have access to PoE godmode...

Tested it. Salvation of time does add 10s to the invisibility from feign death, which could have been insane if invisibility didn't break for some reasons after a few strikes (backstab applied).

 

Still not found application for the "ultimate" rogue ability. Now I discover that Int increases the duration when your rogue is disabled. Just a bit more lame...

Edited April 17, 2016 by Elric Galad

[bigwillystyle]

I sadly discovered that savage attack does not stack with reckless assault. They suppress each other.

 

What?  That blows.  They used to stack.  

[rwendi]

I thought you can only have 1 modal ability active at one time.

 

Vulnerable attack + reckless assault is god like, if you use fast weapons (on paper.).

[MaxQuest]

I thought you can only have 1 modal ability active at one time.

The usual rule of thumb is: one defensive modal, one aura modal and multiple offensive modals.

For example Savage Attack does stack with Vulnerable Attack. And Savage Attack did indeed used to stack with Reckless Assault.

 

But there are exceptions. As you can't have both Vicious aim, Swift Aim and Twin Shots at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.

Also, even if two modals are active it won't hurt to check if one of them is not partially suppressed, in case they affect the same bonus.

Edited May 20, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Jojobobo]

I think it's because Savage Attack and Reckless Assault affect the same things (damage and accuracy), whereas for Vulnerable Attack and Reckless Assault or Savage Attack the effects are different (DR and reduced attack speed vs increased damage and changes to accuracy). That's how I've always interpreted these effects anyway, and it kind of makes sense for the Ranger's abilities too seeing as they all affect accuracy (either boosting it or dropping it) even if they also have an additional effect - could be this is why they decided not to let Powder Burns also stack as it indirectly affects accuracy by making you blind.