The great Rogue polishing thread

[Elric Galad]

 

Several martial classes have already been through ability polishing : I’m thinking about Fighter, Ranger and Paladin.

That’s because they were a bit UP and drew a lot of complaints.

 

Contrary to these classes, rogues were quite balanced since 1.0 and didn’t draw so much criticism.

Therefore, there was never an ability rebalancing patch since release.

As a result, I think that a lot of Rogue abilities are currently lacklusters.

That doesn’t mean rogue are really lacklusters, They have enough nice abilities to make the class good enough.

But most of their builds rely on the same abilities.

 

 

Since 2.0, Rogue tends to be outclassed by Ranger as ranged (thanks to Twin arrows), therefore melee rogue is probably the best (powergaming) way of using rogues.

(By the way, rogues are still good ranged characters. Melee rogues are very good at switching to ranged weapons when necessary, especially for alpha strike. Chuck Norris is not the only one to be able to backstab with an arquebus… )

 

Pretty much all melee Rogue builds look this way :

1 Blinding strike (or crippling strike, it is a matter of taste)

3 Reckless assault

5 Deep Wounds

7 Finishing blow before WMII, now I think it could be changed to the new Distraction ability.

9 Dirty Fighting

11 Deathblows

13 Sap

15 another stuff, maybe finishing blow if not taken previously, or maybe an evasion ability if one doesn’t like per rest stuff, I don’t really know about Feign Death.

 

If you check at Steam guide http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=416939844 ,

all proposed builds rely mostly on the abilities above, as most builds on this forum.

 

Improving the other Rogue abilities wouldn’t make the class more powerful, as it would require dropping some currently used abilities.

It would just make the class more versatile. Riposte rogue, anyone ? Lot of current abilities are quite fun in theory, but lack a bit of raw power.

 

 

So here are my Proposal to give Rogue’s abilities a bit more of “Wow” :

(The purpose is not to change completely these abilities by the way. I’m not evaluating what rogue could have been. I’m trying to propose “reasonable changes”.)

 

Blinding Strike : good as it is (for a level 1 ability)

 

Crippling Strike : good as it is (for a level 1 ability)

 

Reckless Assault : good as it is

 

Escape : Mobility skills are not bad, but I think 1/encounter mobility skill does not worth spending one of your few ability point.

We’re speaking about something that should be more or less comparable to an entire (low) spell level.

Escape would be okay as a talent (By the way shadowing beyond would almost deserve to be an ability as it is almost the ultimate Panic Button skill, with some offensive potential…).

My suggestion is simple : Escape could be refreshed on kill. There’s a lot of “on kill” effect since 3.0. I believe the “kill and run concept” would be cool, not OP. It is a bit circonstancial for the refresh part, but still better than 1/encounter. Overall, it would be enough for a level 3 ability.

 

Dirty Fighting : not so powerful. 10% hit to crit sounds great only if you played too much Diablo 3. But this and related talent are interesting for some builds or weapons, like Tall Grass, Hour of St Rumbalt, various axes, etc… I don’t think a change is necessary.

 

Riposte : 20% only on miss is basically too low, especially with Rogue’s poor deflection. You need a shield to make it work, which cripples full attack riposte and overall DPS.

In my opinion, Riposte should work also on Graze (to keep the feint/counterattack feeling : “you scratched me but it was a trick”). 20% of graze or miss would lead around 10% Riposte with a few deflection buff (double hatchet hipster rogue, anyone ?). I believe it would be enough to make it valuable. It also means that the riposte rate would be still capped at 20% in the very best case, which prevents some abuse.

 

Finishing Blow : I don’t like per rest abilities but I see the point of this one. I think it is ok as it is.

 

Deep Wounds : good as it is

 

Adept Evasion : Sure, Rogue has usually high Per and Dex, but this ability is still very very circonstancial. It works against 17,5% of a specific type attacks (Reflex itself is valued around 1/6 of “all defense”), wouhouh !

D&D equivalent is basically 100% graze to miss. The point is : with 100%, you can build around it, and that’s the most important thing about an ability, even if it’s not crazily powerful. With maxed Dex and Per and 100% adept evasion (and maybe +10 reflex talent), you may throw fireballs and slicken where your rogue stands. Rogue could even be used as decoy with shield (Devil of Caroc decoy, anyone ?). It also makes flanking less constraining for your damage dealing casters.

100% looks big ? Seriously, would a character be really so much tougher with 100% graze to miss reflex ?

With only 50% you can’t really build anything around.

So my suggestion : change it to 100% !

 

Coordinated Positioning : Nice ability but not very convenient to use due to really low distance.

Distance could scale with level.  Like +2m at level 10, 13 and 16. 8m Swap at max level would be cool to use. Even this won’t make this ability OP.

Not realistic ? Come on ! Obsidian did add Shadow Step !

 

Persistant Distraction : good as it is. I like this one, fine debuff, and excellent synergy with deathblows.

 

Withering Strike : Not crazily bad, but Weakness is a weaker status than blind overall, and just a bit better than hobbled. This is too weak for a level 9 ability, especially when compared to level 1 ones.

2/Encounter would be ok.

 

Fearsome Strike : Wouhouhouh ! 2 rather weak status ! Once per rest ! as a level 9 ability !

1/Encounter would be acceptable, and balanced compared to withering strike. This would be a mix of half of level 1 ability and half of level 9 ability, without the same DPS potential due to more limited full attack number. Still not that great. 15s duration would be my suggestion, in order to distinguish it a bit from withering and crippling strike. It won’t make it OP.

 

Deathblows : Crazy enough as it is.

 

Smoke Cloud : Distraction is a nice small effect, crazy accuracy +20 is nice. But duration and range are just bad, especially when combined.

My solution : make it the “Rogue Immolation”, a debuffing cloud moving with the rogue, helping him evading blows. I can imagine that.

3s tick, tick during 15s, 5s debuff duration.

No need to change AoE. Keep accuracy bonus as it is.

Other solution : a big increase in range and duration. Less fun, but less development cost for Obsidian

 

Shadow Step :

Currently, You Shadowstep for a cryptic duration (around 8s), and suddenly come back to your initial position.

Barbarian and Fighters do have teleport stuff too (charge and dragon leap) at this level that brings additional utility (AoE damage and/or debuff) to the table.

Shadowstep is basically harder to control and less rewarding (no additional effect).

Shadowstep comes from Guild wars. In Guild wars, it was a modal (targetable) that could be cancelled to come back to initial position.

In POE, Return should be controllable too.

Maximum Duration could be a bit more. 10s would be enough to kill a wizard. (By the way I don’t know if duration is affected by Intelligence.)

In addition, as a high level ability, a bit more of raw power would be nice too.

To reflect the “shadow” part of the Shadow Step, the rogue could receive a bit of “shadow-form defensive buff” for the duration.

For example, they could receive 15% Graze to miss, 15% hit to graze, 15% crit to hit (spell-like, non-stackable) as the new Cipher spell.

Note for Development : in my opinion, 10s duration and hit conversion would be enough to make the skill fun and good enough, if the development cost for activable return is too high  (because it is a totally new effect to program).

 

Sap : good as it is. Not awesome for a level 13, but still nice as CC and debuff.

 

Feign Death : Not bad, but 10s of incapacitation on you damage dealer as its ultimate ability, seriously ?

5s duration for the “prone” part would be OK, I think.

 

Voilà !

 

Note : there could be the same kind of thread about barbarian, but I think it’s good to have a thread only about rogues.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Maybe I should learn to write shorter post 

[Boeroer]

I pretty much agree with everything. Especially Riposte. Working with grazes (and also turning them into misses) would make it worthwhile and would be one of the few possibilities to turn your allways-squishy into a more sturdier frontliner. It would also be OK if it did a graze-to-miss conversion. I mean look at that shield: Aila Braccia. It turns every ranged graze into a miss and also reflects that shot or spell back to the attacker. It turns fights against Concelhaut and Thaos into jokes if your defenses are high enough. Similar thing with the monk's Soul Mirror. It reflects 50% of ranged misses. That's a lot worse than the shield, but still better than Riposte. Now why is there such a great feature on a shield and a good ability on a monk while riposte is so bad?

 

Another thing I wish rogues had is an ability that lets them evade instead of deflect/block. Something like Brute Force but the other way round: the rogue uses reflex instead of deflection as a defense. That would be very cool and also work well together with adept evasion and make this worthwhile. You could make is so that it only works if the rogue hasn't more than x recovery penalty from armor (or that it works only on cloth). That would be a dodger rogue. And that Riposte only works with attacks that target deflection - that would be a fencer rogue.

 

Something like that.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Boeroer

[Elric Galad]

I pretty much agree with everything. Especially Riposte. Working with grazes (and also turning them into misses) would make it worthwhile and would be one of the few possibilities to turn your allways-squishy into a more sturdier frontliner. It would also be OK if it did a graze-to-miss conversion. I mean look at that shield: Aila Braccia. It turns every ranged graze into a miss and also reflects that shot or spell back to the attacker. It turns fights against Concelhaut and Thaos into jokes if your defenses are high enough. Similar thing with the monk's Soul Mirror. It reflects 50% of ranged misses. That's a lot worse than the shield, but still better than Riposte. Now why is there such a great feature on a shield and a good ability on a monk while riposte is so bad?

 

Another thing I wish rogues had is an ability that lets them evade instead of deflect/block. Something like Brute Force but the other way round: the rogue uses reflex instead of deflection as a defense. That would be very cool and also work well together with adept evasion and make this worthwhile. You could make is so that it only works if the rogue hasn't more than x recovery penalty from armor (or that it works only on cloth). That would be a dodger rogue. And that Riposte only works with attacks that target deflection - that would be a fencer rogue.

 

Something like that.

 

It's really nice to have a review from an expert player

 

I like the idea about evade ability. The only problem for me is that it would render Deflection useless. With the right stats (Dex and Per are usually already maxed on Rogues), talent and items, you could end up with a rogue even sturdier than a tank. Sounds like a bit OP.

 

BUT if it worked only on ranged attack, I think it could be OK (or limited duration, or modal with attack debuff, or % chance to proc) 

Sounds like a "War Dancer" class concept.

 

I think it is rather challenging to balance, so I wouldn't expect something like this before PoE2 by the way

 

 

I have a stupid question : soul mirror, Aila Braccia, Godlen Scales and Durgan shield refinement works on ranged attack.

But are spells considered as ranged attacks ? Or maybe only the ones that target Deflection like "Thaos' Deathstar airstrike on your face" ? 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

All spells that are targeted on a certain character count as ranged attacks. Things like Cleansing Flame and all nearly all cipher powers for example. Pure AoE spells that you place on the ground instead on a character like Fireball for example don't count.

 

That's what makes the Thaos fight so easy: he uses his Cleansing Flame and it gets reflected back to his face. He does that two times and the fight is over. Same with all the Lagufaeth. They paralyze themselves and on top of that the eat their own Necrotic Lances.

 

Relex instaead of Deflection could be a high level talent. Let's call is Master Evasion and you need the Adept Evasion ability to get it. It also doesn't have to work 100% of all times. Maybe it can be a modal that lowers other defenses or lowers ACC a lot or it could only have a 50% chance or whatever works to make it less OP.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Boeroer

[gogocactus]

I'm not going to quote the posts above in their entirety, but I couldn't agree more with OP and Boeroer 's suggestions. Thanks a lot for your good feedback guys, I hope this gets picked up by Obsidian.

[cavemandiary]

As someone who almost exclusively plays 'high risk high reward' glasscannons that prefer to dodge rather than migitate, the rogue has been very disappointing. I think most of the reasons have been mentioned in your opening post, but really the damage is just too low, abilities are too underwhelming and the good ones are per rest.

[Boeroer]

Hehe - that's the first time ever that I read that rogue's damage is too low.

 

There's no other class that can achieve a rogues damage output against a single target. How comes that you have the feeling it's too low? Deathblows + Sneak Attack = +150% base weapon damage. Sounds rather high to me.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Boeroer

[DreamWayfarer]

Yeah, Rogues are able to get so much damage multipliers it is ridiculous.

 

Actualy, I am currently basing a character on the very idea that so many damage multipliers make Might unnecessary, and getting zero, or next to zero recovery from gear makes DEX unnecessary, so one can have a damage dealing rogue with 18 in all mental stats.

[Boeroer]

Sounds good, but I guess you will start with normal stats and retrain when you got those items and abilities, or not? If not the beginning of the game will be so horrible for this Prof. Dr. Rogue.

 

Actually I want to try a build that is a bit of a rogue wizard: high MIG and INT and all spells that cause crush/slash/pierce damage in an AoE - combined with Deep Wounds. Maybe even an implement like this new soulbound scepter is worth it. It deals 15% raw damage after all - should be good with all those damage mods...

Edited February 27, 2016 by Boeroer

[DreamWayfarer]

Sounds good, but I guess you will start with normal stats and retrain when you got those items and abilities, or not? If not the beginning of the game will be so horrible for this Prof. Dr. Rogue.

 

Dual wielding light weapons should be enough for this rogue in act one, and in Act 2 you can get Sword of Daenesys and March Steel dagger very early, so I don't see much going wrong. Plus, this isn't a solo build.

 

I just need to avoid those xaurip stunlockers

Edited February 27, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Elric Galad]

Yeah, Rogues are able to get so much damage multipliers it is ridiculous.

 

Actualy, I am currently basing a character on the very idea that so many damage multipliers make Might unnecessary, and getting zero, or next to zero recovery from gear makes DEX unnecessary, so one can have a damage dealing rogue with 18 in all mental stats.

 

The point is that Dexterity speed modifier is multiplicative with "recovery reduction damage multiplier". By cumulating the two, you'll get a really crazy attack speed.

 

But for sure, you'll be dealing "enough" damage with your build idea.

[DreamWayfarer]

 

 

Yeah, Rogues are able to get so much damage multipliers it is ridiculous.

 

Actualy, I am currently basing a character on the very idea that so many damage multipliers make Might unnecessary, and getting zero, or next to zero recovery from gear makes DEX unnecessary, so one can have a damage dealing rogue with 18 in all mental stats.

The point is that Dexterity speed modifier is multiplicative with "recovery reduction damage multiplier". By cumulating the two, you'll get a really crazy attack speed.

 

But for sure, you'll be dealing "enough" damage with your build idea.

But dextery reduces the "final" action time, right? It was something like (Final Time)=(Action Time)/(1+DEX Multiplier), so if your action time is already very low because of low recovery, DEX contributes less to your damage.

 

I am not saying this build will do top DPS, just that it will still do a good amount of damage and also unlock a lot of options.

 

EDIT: Just tried to test this in POTD, and the glanfathan in tge tutorial are actualy able to kill me. I guess I overvalued the speed of dual wielding fast weapons. But I will keep testing.

Edited February 27, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Boeroer]

 

 

But dextery reduces the "final" action time, right? It was something like (Final Time)=(Action Time)/(1+DEX Multiplier), so if your action time is already very low because of low recovery, DEX contributes less to your damage.

That's right. If your recovery time is already zero then DEX does exactly nothing to your recovery rate. However, it also speeds up your attack animation. 

But if you want to use the Sword of Daenysis and the March Steel Dagger then your attack animation is rather short anyway because those are fast weapons.

 

So I'd say if you leave DEX at 10 you wouldn't notice any difference to a 20 DEX character. But that's only for melee attacks with those weapons of course. Keep in mind that Sword of Daenysis is pierce damage only and daggers are slash damage only. My ultimate goal would be dual wielding Strike Hard with the Helwax Mold. You wouldn't have to switch your weapons ever because of immunities I guess.

 

That would be 1.33 (Sanguine Plate's Frenzy) *1.2*1.15*1.2*1.15 (dual durgan refined Strike Hard) + 0.2(Two Weapon Style) = 2.73 Enough space to fit in Vulnerable Attack and the plate itself. Even without the plate and Outlander's Frenzy there would be enough room to use Vulnerable Attack and an armor with 35% recovery malus - like a durgan reinforced plate. You don't even need the Sanguine Plate - it would just spare you a talent point.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Boeroer

[rheingold]

I tend to agree with the posts, for me though the class does definitely not feel weak, it has its weak points for sure, but oh my, it has its strong points. I just feel that some of the talents are boring. Playing a monk is fun with torments or flaggelants path. Dragon leap for barbs while not an awesomely strong ability is fun. Rogue has lots of strike abilities which work great as they are, it just needs some more fun abilities....

[Boeroer]

They are not weak - it's just that every "good" rogue uses kind of the same abilites and talents. It would be nice if you could choose between more good things. That wouldn't make the class more powerful per se, because you can't fit two builds into one character.

 

So a defensive "dodger" build would be a thing that would truly appreciate - if this will cost you some offensive power so be it. I mean Deathblows is very powerful. If you would offer folks a defensive talent that is as powerful at the same level (like "Master Evasion") people would have to decide if they go for an offensive or defensive route. Still doing lots of damage, but less than an offensive rogue.

[DreamWayfarer]

That's right. If your recovery time is already zero then DEX does exactly nothing to your recovery rate. However, it also speeds up your attack animation.

But if you want to use the Sword of Daenysis and the March Steel Dagger then your attack animation is rather short anyway because those are fast weapons.

 

So I'd say if you leave DEX at 10 you wouldn't notice any difference to a 20 DEX character. But that's only for melee attacks with those weapons of course. Keep in mind that Sword of Daenysis is pierce damage only and daggers are slash damage only. My ultimate goal would be dual wielding Strike Hard with the Helwax Mold. You wouldn't have to switch your weapons ever because of immunities I guess.

 

That would be 1.33 (Sanguine Plate's Frenzy) *1.2*1.15*1.2*1.15 (dual durgan refined Strike Hard) + 0.2(Two Weapon Style) = 2.73 Enough space to fit in Vulnerable Attack and the plate itself. Even without the plate and Outlander's Frenzy there would be enough room to use Vulnerable Attack and an armor with 35% recovery malus - like a durgan reinforced plate. You don't even need the Sanguine Plate - it would just spare you a talent point.

Thanks for the tips, Boeroer. Maybe(only maybe) I will respec after getting those items, it is just that March Steel Dagger and Sword of Daenesys can be aquired very early.

 

EDIT: plus, warhammers don't fit the looks I was going for to complement this build's gameplay, so I will most likely not respec.

Edited February 27, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Boeroer]

Ah - going for the duelist look with the Dandy Hat of the Diseased Yak, hm?

[DreamWayfarer]

Ah - going for the duelist look with the Dandy Hat of the Diseased Yak, hm?

Mayyybe. Said character is supposed to be more of a youn noblewoman with a machiavellian streak who got involved in a conspiracy too big for her and fled to Dyrwood. Whatever I give her the hat ir not depends on how much I like Sanguine Plate, since I don't think both will look good together.

[MaxQuest]

But dextery reduces the "final" action time, right? It was something like (Final Time)=(Action Time)/(1+DEX Multiplier), so if your action time is already very low because of low recovery, DEX contributes less to your damage.

getting zero, or next to zero recovery from gear makes DEX unnecessary

Hmm, not quite. Since dex also reduces the attack phase.

 

In theory going from 10 dex to 20, would net the same x1.3 benefit, regardless of your recovery.

Because action time = (attack_time + recovery_time) / (1 + dex_bonus)

 

In practice... between actions there is also a small delay.

Nevertheless, here are the frame results (recorded a few minutes ago) for full action times (i.e. between two consecutive hits) of a warbow:

(checked, and re-checked over a long sequence of shots)

 

10 dex, no speed buffs: 126 frames

20 dex, no speed buffs: 98 frames (/1.28)

 

10 dex, no recovery: 52 frames

20 dex, no recovery: 42 frames (/1.23)

 

P.S. Too bad, can't test frames with at least decimal accuracy.

Edited February 27, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Francis Ironwood]

How come no ones hating on Shadowstep more? I hate this ability. It's so weak there's almost no point to it. Coordinated Positioning is a better ability than this piece of turd. Shadow Step needs to do more than just teleport you a short distance and back. The fact that you can't control or even see when you return back is terribadawful. I see almost no use for this ability. You can't run from enemies with it, you can't get to the backline with it. Well you technically can for like 8s. Worse of all it doesn't help you survive the trip. So you jumped on the enemy backline? So what? You're still a megasquishy rogue who's going to be targeted now that you kindly teleported into range of everyone. Bypassing the frontline with a rogue can be suicide because it's pretty hard to get to the backline without getting in the range of the backline. I would rate this ability 1/10. 1 because it has a cool name.

[DreamWayfarer]

Can't comment on Shadowstep, but I've found Escape to be a very fun ability, even if suboptimal, since it doens't break stealth.

[Boeroer]

 

 

10 dex, no recovery: 52 frames

20 dex, no recovery: 42 frames (/1.23)

Yeah - but that's with a slow war bow. What are the numbers with a rapier and a dagger?

[Boeroer]

I think both abilites are total and utter crap (excuse my french).

[MaxQuest]

Yeah - but that's with a slow war bow. What are the numbers with a rapier and a dagger?

Hmm, do you expect something to change?

But yeah, I could test that.

 

-- update --

Have tried the following setup: 1h Sword of Daenerys (rapier with speed enchant) + Swift Aim + Gauntlets of Swift Action + Time Parasite + Del. Potion.

10 dex: 46 hit, 72 hit, 98 hit, 124 hit, 150 hit, 176 hit: media = 26 frames

20 dex: 28 hit, 49 hit, 70 hit, 91 hit, 112 hit, 133 hit: media = 21 frames (/1.23)

 

I don't know why the coefficient is not x1.3. Previously I was thinking it is due to 4s delay between actions (which is supposedly not affected by dex).

d + (26 - d)/1.3 = 21

20 + d - 10d/13 = 21

20 + d * (3/13) = 21

d = 4.333 (not precisely 4, but somewhat close)

 

Bur when I have tried +2000% action speed (from 675 dex) on an arbalest (it's more precise with reloading weapons), I have noticed that standing still animation (which is played right after reload finish and before attack animation start of rising weapon) has duration of two frames. So that delay was actually reduced by dex. (although not by 2000% but only by 100%)

Edited February 27, 2016 by MaxQuest