I don't think I am able to get into this game, which is a huge shame and probably my fault or my own stupidity

[katie]

I have pre-ordered Pillars of Eternity, and so I've had it for awhile. I've never really had a 'ton' of time though to really get into the game. I have a really demanding job, and even if I have some kind of a vacation, there's still other things I need to be doing, so I only really get a day's worth of gaming in. Of course, the game just sits on my hard disk for months before the next vacation, and I try to get back into it again. We're at the end of December, and that trend has been a constant.

 

But I will be honest, there are other reasons why I don't finish. I don't think I'm actually able to get into a game like this - which is so odd for me to say, because I've actually played all of the older style games from Black Isle and Bioware. In fact, I used to be really good them, knowing the mechanics, spells, and everything inside and out. In fact, I had even written a few power gaming guides about them. 

 

One of the reasons I tend to stop playing is the combat - I really just don't like the combat. Sure, when the encounter is manageable and I know what's going on, it's fine. But when it gets difficult? I have no idea what the hell is going on. Part of that has to be that I take too long of breaks between play sessions, yet try and continue from where I left off. But I also think the game is too unforgiving, and it's easy to feel frustrated and even a little pissed off.

 

For example, I'm trying to get into the game today, and I was in the middle of the lighthouse quest. Naturally, it's impossible as my tanks don't seem to be any good at tanking, so all of my casters are just dropping like flies. I figure, why not try other tasks?

 

So I do. I try the Missing Sentries task, and I get to the last encounter of that - the ghost person - and again the fight is basically cheap and impossible. She/it paralyzes everyone, most of your party's health drops to 20% or so, and a few characters die in a matter of seconds. And I just have no idea what the hell I am supposed to do, or even what's going on.

 

I honestly don't know or remember the mechanics for this game, but clearly a deep understanding of everything must be required to succeed. But it's so hard to know what all of the spells do, or what the mechanics do, etc. after these long breaks, but it wasn't ever exactly "easy" to get into in the first place. And when it comes to builds, I will admit, I have no idea what I'm doing. I could pick things that sound reasonable to me, but naturally it's wrong and experts on these forums would have done things very differently.

 

It's a shame. I just wish there was a cole's notes guide that simplified everything, so you could be 80% effective without having to know 80% of the depth, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Even when I watch these "guides" on youtube, they are so technical and exhaustive, and they even assume so much from the viewer, that I just feel lost.

 

The truth is, it's so much to take in that I think I must really be stupid and/or have gotten used to such casual games. And that saddens me. But this game is really hard to get into for these reasons, and it's frustrating.

 

And then there's the story - I just had a conversation with Durance... and I have no idea what the hell he's talking about sometimes. And I find a lot of characters are like that, and I honestly could care less to spend the time to figure it out to get any enjoyment out of it. And if that's the case, I wonder why bother with it?

 

So... I'm pretty much at the point where I am about to uninstall the game, which is a point I never thought I'd actually come to, especially for an award-winning RPG, and especially from a game made by Obsidian, a developer I quite like. But I guess I'm just not the target market for this game. I could spend the next 3 days really learning the mechanics and stuff, but I'm going to get nowhere with my game progress, and then my vacation will be over, and I won't be getting another go at it for quite awhile.

Kind of sad that I've come to realization, and I just needed to vent. I hope not to make anyone angry, and in things are salvagable so that I could enjoy the game without dropping to loser difficulty mode, then maybe I'll give it a go again - because I do want to enjoy it actually - but it's just not working out

[PrimeJunta]

Yep, Pillars takes time and effort. You need to read the dialogs with thought to understand what's going on with the stories, not just click through them, and you need to understand the mechanics to be able to win fights. If you don't have the time or the inclination to do that, then it's not the game for you -- and there's absolutely no shame in that.

That said, it sounds to me that you actually want to enjoy the game, and all you need is a little leg-up to start winning fights. On that assumption:

• What level are you?
• What difficulty are you playing on?

The two quests you mention? I got wrecked when first attempting them, and this after about a hundred hours of the beta. They're tough, optional encounters. If you go into them early, they're pretty hard even if you know the mechanics really well. There's plenty of easier stuff around that you can do first.

Pillars -- like BG and BG2 for that matter -- is like that. You get access to a lot of content early on, and to begin with some of it will be above your pay grade. So one "basic" thing to do is that if you get beat up, go look somewhere else. If you get beat up there too, go look even more.

 

Also, note that difficulty mode (other than Path of the Damned) doesn't affect enemy stats, just group composition. This means that the bosses in optional quests (like the two you mentioned) are exactly as tough at all difficulties. In practice this means that difficulty spikes more on Easy than the harder difficulties.

Here's a list of some quests to do before the ones you're attempting -- names not official, these are off the top of my head but if you've done them you'll know what I mean, and it's by no means exhaustive:

 

• The bear cave
• Late for dinner
• Ranga's remedy
• Tuatanu's supplies
• Raedric's Hold -- this is a big one, and can be done with relatively little violence
• Bones of the Temple of Eothas
• The svef dealer
• The Vailian Trading Company
• Heirloom Breastplate
• Animancy notes for the Knights
• Temple of Woedica

 

Second, here's "Cole's notes" version of the mechanics: if you think about it, read the spell and ability descriptions with it in mind, and apply it, you will start winning:

• Every attack uses Accuracy against a Defence.
• The Defences are Deflection, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will.
• To consistently Hit or Crit, your Accuracy will need to be higher than the defence you're targeting.
• Martial attacks (melee or ranged) target Deflection. Magical attacks, traps, etc. target the other defences.
• To hit a hard-to-hit enemy, target its weakest Defence. This will often reduce other Defences, letting you do more direct damage.
• To avoid getting hit by an enemy, figure out which Defence it is targeting, and strengthen that, e.g. with a spell from Durance, food, a scroll, or a potion.

You can see which Defence your attack targets from the ability description. Once you've fought a type of critter a bit, you will see its Defences in the pop-up at top left, as well as a hit chance above it.

[Zenbane]

Edit:

Removed everything I said since Tigranes altered my post and changed the context.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Zenbane
a little bit far...

[Heijoushin]

Fair enough if you can't get into it. It's not going to be for everyone.

 

I totally agree that Durance speaks a lot of waffle, and totally agree that the early ghost encounters that you mentioned are difficult. 

 

Anyway, why not save it for a holiday when you have more time to play and get into it?

[Osvir]

Spend some extra time thinking what sort of character do you want to play? This tends to be my biggest obstacle, because if I don't have a desireable avatar in the game I tend to get exhausted and less inclined to come back to the game.

 

So, yeah, it lies in your hands to make a character that you can enjoy. I can't even count how many times I've restarted BG, IWD, Dragon Age, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, even Arena, Divinity, Wasteland and so on and forth into infinity. Restarted because the character I made just didn't interest me and I get bored with my own creation.

 

Pillars of Eternity has TONS of options, so finding a combination for you will probably not be much of an issue. I just think you need to find it in yourself to.. well... find it.

[Sedrefilos]

I have experienced the same thing with long breaks between sessions and little time to play. Unfortunately, games like this are better played continuously. Like this is a period of your life that you have, say, at least 3 or 4 hour per day or per other day and you've said to youself "this is a good time to play Pillars". I've quit games beacause of little free time; I loose the connection with them if I stay away for too long. Or restart them at some other more comvinient time.

 

Other than that, I don't believe the game is that difficult and not that complicated either if you have exerience in similar games, though every non-action rpg gets a bit getting used to it at start.

 

If you have very long time since you last played a game like Pillars, you'll need to spend more time with it (happened to me when I played King's Bounty: The Legend for the  first time or even Baldur's Gate 2 for the first time. Was wandering around doing random stuff but after a few sessions I got serious; having sufficient free time helped in that).

 

My advice is, if you don't have enough free time, better leave it for some other time and start over. You'll have no problem in getting into it if mechanics is mostly your problem (games's made in a way that all builds are viable for every class).

[Boeroer]

According to Steam I've played this game for more than 1600 hours... and I still discover new things about combat mechanics.

 

So... either I'm suffering from Alzheimer's, or ... wait, where did I put my coffee mug?

Edited December 29, 2015 by Boeroer

[Parasol_Syndicate]

Katie, are you playing this on easy? 

 

It does double duty, because not only are encounters easier (duh), they take less time to resolve. Which is helpful for someone who doesn't have 1600 hours handy. 

 

Durance (and Eder) is a native son of the Dyrwood, so isn't quite as unbiased about history as some. His faith is one of bias and aggression, for one thing.  

Edited December 29, 2015 by Parasol_Syndicate

[Fenixp]

Spending entertainment time on things you don't enjoy just because you believe you should enjoy them is wasting that time. Uninstall it, shelve it, go do something else and have fun. Perhaps a few years down the line you'll get a huge craving play Pillars of Eternity again and find that suddenly, you're really enjoying it.

[archangel979]

Spending entertainment time on things you don't enjoy just because you believe you should enjoy them is wasting that time. Uninstall it, shelve it, go do something else and have fun. Perhaps a few years down the line you'll get a huge craving play Pillars of Eternity again and find that suddenly, you're really enjoying it.

Or maybe find herself with extra free time and a need for a less casual game.

[Jayngo]

Games like these take time, dedication, and effort to really get into to appreciate it all. I have purchased the lore books to really get me into the world that has been created. 

 

With that said, I don't have as much time on my hands as I used to (when games like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale came out). I have not been able to get into the world and story as much as I have wanted and I've had to take long breaks in between play sessions as well.

 

Still, it's a great game and does not deserve to be deleted off your computer! Keep pluggin along!

[katie]

Yep, Pillars takes time and effort. You need to read the dialogs with thought to understand what's going on with the stories, not just click through them, and you need to understand the mechanics to be able to win fights. If you don't have the time or the inclination to do that, then it's not the game for you -- and there's absolutely no shame in that.

 

That said, it sounds to me that you actually want to enjoy the game, and all you need is a little leg-up to start winning fights. On that assumption:

• What level are you?
• What difficulty are you playing on?

The two quests you mention? I got wrecked when first attempting them, and this after about a hundred hours of the beta. They're tough, optional encounters. If you go into them early, they're pretty hard even if you know the mechanics really well. There's plenty of easier stuff around that you can do first.

Pillars -- like BG and BG2 for that matter -- is like that. You get access to a lot of content early on, and to begin with some of it will be above your pay grade. So one "basic" thing to do is that if you get beat up, go look somewhere else. If you get beat up there too, go look even more.

 

Also, note that difficulty mode (other than Path of the Damned) doesn't affect enemy stats, just group composition. This means that the bosses in optional quests (like the two you mentioned) are exactly as tough at all difficulties. In practice this means that difficulty spikes more on Easy than the harder difficulties.

 

Here's a list of some quests to do before the ones you're attempting -- names not official, these are off the top of my head but if you've done them you'll know what I mean, and it's by no means exhaustive:

 

 

 

• The bear cave
• Late for dinner
• Ranga's remedy
• Tuatanu's supplies
• Raedric's Hold -- this is a big one, and can be done with relatively little violence
• Bones of the Temple of Eothas
• The svef dealer
• The Vailian Trading Company
• Heirloom Breastplate
• Animancy notes for the Knights
• Temple of Woedica

 

 

 

Second, here's "Cole's notes" version of the mechanics: if you think about it, read the spell and ability descriptions with it in mind, and apply it, you will start winning:

• Every attack uses Accuracy against a Defence.
• The Defences are Deflection, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will.
• To consistently Hit or Crit, your Accuracy will need to be higher than the defence you're targeting.
• Martial attacks (melee or ranged) target Deflection. Magical attacks, traps, etc. target the other defences.
• To hit a hard-to-hit enemy, target its weakest Defence. This will often reduce other Defences, letting you do more direct damage.
• To avoid getting hit by an enemy, figure out which Defence it is targeting, and strengthen that, e.g. with a spell from Durance, food, a scroll, or a potion.

You can see which Defence your attack targets from the ability description. Once you've fought a type of critter a bit, you will see its Defences in the pop-up at top left, as well as a hit chance above it.

Thanks so much for your response, and for all of the responses actually. None of them were rude, so that's a really good thing

 

I am level 5 at the moment, and I'm playing on normal difficulty. I don't really want to drop things down to easy.

 

I guess it's good to know that the quests are designed to be hard then, and that might not be my fault. I could go off to do different quests. Most of the quests that you listed as safe to do for low-level characters I have completed. I think there's only 2 on that list that I need to do.

 

Thanks for the overview of the mechanics. It does seem familiar to me when I read that, so I guess I am not totally lost or stupid. I just think it's super hard to leave the game for several months.

 

I will admit, I wish building characters was not so difficult. And I will also admit, I have no idea what most of the spells do. And to be honest, even with reading them, you still don't actually know if they are useful or not. In the Wizard's case, foresight is absolutely required if you don't actually find the spell on a grimoire since you're pretty much picking blindly on level up. And even the grimoire's have an investment too - you need to spend gold (and re-spend the gold when you respec), which punishes learning and experimentation. Maybe I've grown so casual over the years, but the more complex a game is, the more forgiving and mutable the character builds need to be to make corrections.

 

Perhaps if there's a way to get nearly unlimited gold - lol - then respecing and relearning spells wouldn't feel like it's making a sacrifice to your financial well-being in the game. For all I know, experimenting with builds means I can't buy any the best armor or weapons down the line - I have no idea what the consequences of that are. Which is why I think games should just give free respecs, especially when they are complicated.

 

And while I'd love to think that all choices are neutral, they never are in these games. I sort of get the sense that the dev's could just remove all of the bad options that nobody picks to help new players from making mistakes. Maybe I just don't know what I'm saying, but information in terms of guides is so hard to come by with this game.

[Fenixp]

Perhaps if there's a way to get nearly unlimited gold - lol - then respecing and relearning spells wouldn't feel like it's making a sacrifice to your financial well-being in the game.

Just play the game and loot everything into your endless stash located somewhere in a pocket dimension. Endless gold is essentially what happens then. The economy of the game sucks anyway so there's no need to make it even more painful - just be able to afford everything and you'll be fine.

 

And yes, you need to add copper into all of your crafting recipes for whatever reason and apparently, mages use melted copper to write their grimoires. It's a thing the game does. It's kind of dumb.

[katie]

Fair enough if you can't get into it. It's not going to be for everyone.

 

I totally agree that Durance speaks a lot of waffle, and totally agree that the early ghost encounters that you mentioned are difficult. 

 

Anyway, why not save it for a holiday when you have more time to play and get into it?

He does waffle, doesn't he? Some of the writing in the game is like reading Shakespeare, and I hate reading Shakespeare. I'm an engineer, not an English major.

 

I'm not sure I entirely understand the direction for the writing in this game - this is something that is NOT a throwback to any of the previous games. If I recall correctly, the dialogue and story in Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, etc. was pretty light. And even though it was a fantasy environment, people spoke very casually like in modern times, and to me, that makes the game really easy to get into - I dare say it's more enjoyable when the communication between the game and the player is actually crystal clear and comprehensible.

 

This is my holiday though - I have time off until January 4th, so it's pretty much now or never, lol.

[katie]

 

Perhaps if there's a way to get nearly unlimited gold - lol - then respecing and relearning spells wouldn't feel like it's making a sacrifice to your financial well-being in the game.

Just play the game and loot everything into your endless stash located somewhere in a pocket dimension. Endless gold is essentially what happens then. The economy of the game sucks anyway so there's no need to make it even more painful - just be able to afford everything and you'll be fine.

 

And yes, you need to add copper into all of your crafting recipes for whatever reason and apparently, mages use melted copper to write their grimoires. It's a thing the game does. It's kind of dumb.

 

I really dislike the idea that builds need to be permanent or expensive in some way to change. In this kind of a game, I can't really use reason to make decisions, because I have no idea what all of the facts are and I have no evidence and experience of how anything will actually work. For a game like this, I want to "play" and "experiment" so that I can actually learn and figure things out. Gold costs and such prohibit that process from happening, yet they demand such perfection at the same time. I don't mind dying and such while I am learning, because there is nothing permanent to that - I just reload and try again. But when you start inflicting costs and resources on me through this learning process, then I start to feel punished that it's not okay to learn despite the game demanding it. Honestly, it's pretty stupid and I wish these costs weren't in the game. My only real complaint.

Edited December 29, 2015 by katie

[Fenixp]

I wish for that too. I was not kidding tho - gold is a bit of an issue at the beginning of the game, but I learned everything I stumbled upon with my two mages and never ran out. That's why I think decision of limiting crafting and spell learning by monetary costs is quite dumb - all it does is give player impression of a limitation where in reality there's none.

 

this is something that is NOT a throwback to any of the previous games

Planescape Torment trough and trough. Wordy, lengthy dialogues with tons of foreshadowing of things you can't know about at the beginning, the whole game entirely revolves around a set of themes, highly philosophical etc. I loved writing in Pillars of Eternity, but it's definitely not for everyone. Edited December 29, 2015 by Fenixp

[katie]

I wish for that too. I was not kidding tho - gold is a bit of an issue at the beginning of the game, but I learned everything I stumbled upon with my two mages and never ran out. That's why I think decision of limiting crafting and spell learning by monetary costs is quite dumb - all it does is give player impression of a limitation where in reality there's none.

 

this is something that is NOT a throwback to any of the previous games

Planescape Torment trough and trough. Wordy, lengthy dialogues with tons of foreshadowing of things you can't know about at the beginning, the whole game entirely revolves around a set of themes, highly philosophical etc. I loved writing in Pillars of Eternity, but it's definitely not for everyone.

 

They still had Morte Torment was wordy, but Pillars seems like they were trying to be artistic and incomprehensible for art's sake. I honestly think it's very possible to have philosophy and deep and a mature setting while at the same time not having half of your characters speak nonsensical drivel.

 

And Torment was not a difficult game. If the story takes some investment, it actually makes sense that the combat takes more of a back seat. And if the combat takes a huge investment, then the story can be more relaxed and easily enjoyed (and that doesn't mean "simple", just not written in such a way where the player has to work extremely hard at that too). The problem with Pillars is that you have to work excruciatingly hard at everything.

 

And if you can get lots of gold later on in the game, then this decision is even worse, because it just punishes new players the most - the people that need the respecs the most.

Edited December 29, 2015 by katie

[Fenixp]

They still had Morte Torment was wordy, but Pillars seems like they were trying to be artistic and incomprehensible for art's sake.

Well, Durance and one other NPC who you're yet to meet are both written by Chris Avellone - lead designer of Planescape Torment. Blame him :-P Personally I really disliked those two NPCs as they stylistically didn't seem to quite mesh with rest of the game - some people consider them the best companions in the game tho, so go figure.

 

As for the rest of writing, it's mostly just difficult to understand because you're thrown into an unknown fantasy setting and get flooded with names, locations and events you have no knowledge of, yet your character mostly does. It's all accessible in the journal and I quite enjoyed this aspect of storytelling - it can be somewhat bothersome tho.

[Tigranes]

Don't be hesitant to make the changes that make the game enjoyable for you, if you do want to keep playing. It's a game, after all. I don't think there's a single reason not to drop it to Easy - it sounds like that is the very first thing you should do to relieve your particular frustrations. 

 

And heck, if you wanted to house-rule to yourself, I want to experiment with lots of builds, I'm going to use console commands to give myself gold for those things (without cheating myself unlimited cash for everything else) - why not? It's your game. 

 

If Obsidian made such changes across the board, it would be to the detriment of the game's overall vision, which is not a casual romp but an in depth experience, and to the detriment of players who want that. But if you yourself want to make those changes, there are tools to very easily make that happen, and that might improve your in-game quality of life.

[Zenbane]

And even the grimoire's have an investment too - you need to spend gold (and re-spend the gold when you respec), which punishes learning and experimentation.

 

I really dislike the idea that builds need to be permanent or expensive in some way to change.

 

These two statements are in stark contrast to what most players are experiencing. Gold is incredibly abundant before players are even at the midway point of the game. Sure you start off a bit broke, but I was swimming in Gold by the time I hit the catacombs in Defiance Bay. Saying that grimoire's and build changes are expensive is just false, to be honest. I mean, look at another discussion taking place on the same page of this forum:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/81321-disappointed-with-20-respec/?p=1762936

 

For the purpose of clarity, there are at least two members of this forum who present the argument that respeci'ng is too easily accomplished in Pillars, without penalty. They are asking that the game change in some way that would limit the number of times a player can respec because doing so is, and I quote, "ridiculously underpriced."

 

We can also look at discussions about the Stronghold to further illustrate just how abundant money is in Pillars. Some folks have argued that the only reason the Stronghold exists is to give players something to do with "all that extra gold," while others argue that the Stronghold still doesn't do enough to use up the abundance of wealth players collect:

 

I don't see it as much of a money sink - since I have far too much money anyway - after the first couple of upgrades when money's more tight, it's not even a question of 'upgrade keep v. spend money on something else' - I just click.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79948-the-strong-hold-and-its-function/?p=1698156

 

My point is, if a player commits to this game with more than just an overly casual mindset, then the fun-factor drastically improves and the true elements/functions of the game begin to stand out - including the areas that could use improvement. However, if someone approaches the game as a minimalist, then clearly the things you will experience will not reflect even some of the more basic realities of the game.  Case in point, there are real problems with the money system but the problems are widely perceived as the exact opposite of what you described.

 

I think Fenixp gave sound advice when he suggested that you shelve Pillars for now. Wait until the Storymode update comes out, which is 100% geared towards a minimalist playthrough.

[PrimeJunta]

Thanks so much for your response, and for all of the responses actually. None of them were rude, so that's a really good thing

 

I am level 5 at the moment, and I'm playing on normal difficulty. I don't really want to drop things down to easy.

Level 5 is pretty low for those quests.

 

Also if you think they're hard, don't attempt to complete the faction quests any time soon. Both the Knights and the Dozens' line finishes with some really tough fights. I'm on level 5 now and am getting smeared all over the walls by the final Knights fight (Path of the Damned difficulty though). Decided to level and gear up a bit before finishing, although I really want the reward...

 

I will admit, I wish building characters was not so difficult. And I will also admit, I have no idea what most of the spells do. And to be honest, even with reading them, you still don't actually know if they are useful or not. In the Wizard's case, foresight is absolutely required if you don't actually find the spell on a grimoire since you're pretty much picking blindly on level up. And even the grimoire's have an investment too - you need to spend gold (and re-spend the gold when you respec), which punishes learning and experimentation. Maybe I've grown so casual over the years, but the more complex a game is, the more forgiving and mutable the character builds need to be to make corrections.

You do need to experiment, but it's ultimately not that hard. Read the descriptions, think about what they say, form a hypothesis, and test it. It's mostly about two things really -- finding the right spell to attack an enemy's weak spot, and finding synergies between spells and other abilities. Combusting Wounds for example synergises well with spells that do damage over time, but it useless against enemies which are immune or resistant to fire. That sort of thing.

 

Perhaps if there's a way to get nearly unlimited gold - lol - then respecing and relearning spells wouldn't feel like it's making a sacrifice to your financial well-being in the game. For all I know, experimenting with builds means I can't buy any the best armor or weapons down the line - I have no idea what the consequences of that are. Which is why I think games should just give free respecs, especially when they are complicated.

Builds aren't actually all that critical in Pillars. Tactics are far more crucial. You can play with just about any party specced any which way, and if you play it to the party's strengths and don't do quests too early, the game will be pretty easy really, a few boss fights notwithstanding.

 

And while I'd love to think that all choices are neutral, they never are in these games. I sort of get the sense that the dev's could just remove all of the bad options that nobody picks to help new players from making mistakes. Maybe I just don't know what I'm saying, but information in terms of guides is so hard to come by with this game.

They're by no means neutral, optimised builds are a good deal more powerful than sub-optimal ones. However don't get too hung up on the builds, focus on how you play the game instead. If you're bad at tactics, you'll die a lot even with a perfectly fine-tuned, optimised party -- and if you're good at them, Normal and Hard are easy even with a really bad party.

[PrimeJunta]

He does waffle, doesn't he? Some of the writing in the game is like reading Shakespeare, and I hate reading Shakespeare. I'm an engineer, not an English major.

 

I'm not sure I entirely understand the direction for the writing in this game - this is something that is NOT a throwback to any of the previous games. If I recall correctly, the dialogue and story in Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, etc. was pretty light. And even though it was a fantasy environment, people spoke very casually like in modern times, and to me, that makes the game really easy to get into - I dare say it's more enjoyable when the communication between the game and the player is actually crystal clear and comprehensible.

 

This is my holiday though - I have time off until January 4th, so it's pretty much now or never, lol.

Durance was written by Chris Avellone before he left Obsidian, and his style is noticeably different from the characters the others wrote. Edér and Kana are fairly light-hearted. If you don't like his dialog, just ignore him or drop him from the party (and don't recruit the Grieving Mother, she's more of the same).

 

Avellone made Planescape: Torment by the way, which is regarded by many (myself included) as one of the all-time classics among computer games. It was very much referenced in the Kickstarter, and a lot of PS:T fans were a bit disappointed the writing in Pillars wasn't more Torment-y.

 

BG didn't have much dialog at all, and most of it was pretty straightforward plot exposition. BG2 had a quite a bit more with the companion quests; some of those were fairly wordy, and a few were actually a bit on the "heavy" side. I think the two games blur together in a lot of people's minds, and they credit BG1 for stuff that's actually only in BG2. I'd surmise the "dialog" people remember from BG1 is actually mostly barks and interjections by party members, notably Minsc and Jaheira.

 

But then there was Jan Jansen and his turnips, bless his gnomish heart.

[katie]

 

And even the grimoire's have an investment too - you need to spend gold (and re-spend the gold when you respec), which punishes learning and experimentation.

 

I really dislike the idea that builds need to be permanent or expensive in some way to change.

 

These two statements are in stark contrast to what most players are experiencing. Gold is incredibly abundant before players are even at the midway point of the game. Sure you start off a bit broke, but I was swimming in Gold by the time I hit the catacombs in Defiance Bay. Saying that grimoire's and build changes are expensive is just false, to be honest. I mean, look at another discussion taking place on the same page of this forum:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/81321-disappointed-with-20-respec/?p=1762936

 

For the purpose of clarity, there are at least two members of this forum who present the argument that respeci'ng is too easily accomplished in Pillars, without penalty. They are asking that the game change in some way that would limit the number of times a player can respec because doing so is, and I quote, "ridiculously underpriced."

 

We can also look at discussions about the Stronghold to further illustrate just how abundant money is in Pillars. Some folks have argued that the only reason the Stronghold exists is to give players something to do with "all that extra gold," while others argue that the Stronghold still doesn't do enough to use up the abundance of wealth players collect:

 

I don't see it as much of a money sink - since I have far too much money anyway - after the first couple of upgrades when money's more tight, it's not even a question of 'upgrade keep v. spend money on something else' - I just click.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79948-the-strong-hold-and-its-function/?p=1698156

 

My point is, if a player commits to this game with more than just an overly casual mindset, then the fun-factor drastically improves and the true elements/functions of the game begin to stand out - including the areas that could use improvement. However, if someone approaches the game as a minimalist, then clearly the things you will experience will not reflect even some of the more basic realities of the game.  Case in point, there are real problems with the money system but the problems are widely perceived as the exact opposite of what you described.

 

I think Fenixp gave sound advice when he suggested that you shelve Pillars for now. Wait until the Storymode update comes out, which is 100% geared towards a minimalist playthrough.

 

 

I think you need to understand a few things in context. New players have NO idea how scarce gold is in the game. Historically, RPGs have had gold become next to worthless to enormously scarce - even to the point where "you will never, ever be able to buy everything you want". So a new player, even one with past experience in RPGs, will not immediately know where this new game lies, and will probably err on the side of caution (until told otherwise, but prior to writing my post, this was the mindset I had - and I had no reason to think otherwise).

 

I am not sure why someone would want respecs to more expensive. Yes, experienced players at high levels with lots of gold won't mind, but this decision clearly would punish new players, or people learning - and I just think if you want to challenge people, you should be challenging the experienced players who clearly want this challenge, and not the players who are still learning the ropes. Why make the game even more difficult to get into for? This honestly quite stupid. For any game, even a niche one like this, these people who want more challenge and more unforgiving mechanics are the minority as a whole. If anything, I am probably more in the majority - a person who enjoyed these games in her childhood, but now commands a demanding job in her adult life and doesn't have this kind of time to invest in ultra-demanding games any more. I still like challenge and depth, but clearly there are limits. 

 

If someone who played these games in their childhood (who is now an adult in their mid-thirties) still has the time to dedicate to understanding absolutely everything and spends over 1000 hours on it, I'd really question what they are doing in their adult life at this point.... 

 

I'm just saying there's a reason to make things less punishing and more explorative. Make respecs free on normal, and make them cost more and more money on higher difficulties. There, problem solved.

[PrimeJunta]

If someone who played these games in their childhood (who is now an adult in their mid-thirties) still has the time to dedicate to understanding absolutely everything and spends over 1000 hours on it, I'd really question what they are doing in their adult life at this point....

I had a lot of sympathy for your predicament up to this point, but passive-aggressively insulting people who are willing to help you out kind of killed that.

 

Out of curiosity, do you watch TV? If so, how much?

 

I'm just saying there's a reason to make things less punishing and more explorative. Make respecs free on normal, and make them cost more and more money on higher difficulties. There, problem solved.

There are scads and scads and scads of RPG-lites that are easy to learn, don't require much thought, time, or effort to master, and provide plenty of entertainment. Why not play one of them rather than calling to dumb down one of the few games which try to cater to a somewhat more hardcore crowd?

 

(Also, I would like respec gone altogether. It cheapens the entire game by trivialising your character-building choices.)

[Boeroer]

If someone who played these games in their childhood (who is now an adult in their mid-thirties) still has the time to dedicate to understanding absolutely everything and spends over 1000 hours on it, I'd really question what they are doing in their adult life at this point.... 

 

Ouch!

 

Try my solution: earn more than 100 € per hour and never do overtime - unless they pay double. Tadaa!

 

p.s.: I don't watch TV.

 

p.p.s.: I don't sleep a lot either.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Boeroer