Obsidian should rework the classes for POE2

[evilcat]

 

Unfortunetly Paladin Orders are not so good, since for npc character devotion does not build up, and some of order specific talents are uninspiring (weak).

 

This.

 

I really dig the way ethics/reputations are mechanically tied to priest/paladin class features, and I found it a big let-down that it only applies to the PC. Having the reputations affect everyone would add another dimension to party-building: you'd want paladin and priest companions compatible with your outlook. 

 

I understand that they didn't do this so they wouldn't discourage players from taking on Durance or Pallegina, but with more companions from WM1 and another one coming in WM2, I think this could be safely changed. After all, if you don't like it, you can always roll your own, or give Pallegina or Durance the talent that neutralises negative faith effects.

 

 

Other option would be NPC-only talent which builds devotion per level.

It is hard to value Pallegina utility is she Paladin without class feature.

It is like playling rogue with weaker sneak attack.

 

Even better if story companions will have some free devotion buff. Just to represent more or less sticking to the code even with PC actions.

 

There is also idea of story companions getting "something" from doing loylat quests. Like small stat boost or unique talent (unique to what custom/PC can have) to offset companions balanced builds or just make a bit more special, and making companion quests more valuable.

[PrimeJunta]

Yes, excellent! Pallegina's and Durance's devotion could go up as their personal quests progress. Very good idea!

[Nixl]

So I've been playing the game for the past week, trying all the classes to see which one suits me more and, somehow, I kind of find the lackluster.

Sure, all of them have different abilities and stuff, but I kind of find annoying that all of them can use any kind of weapon or armor, whatever suits the player. I understand that it allows players to create whatever they want, but from a lore perspective, I don't know, it kinda makes no sense.

 

For example, if you are a monk you should be locked to a specific set of weapons & armors that could vary depending on which martial school you would choose when you create your character, things like that.

 

Remember this artwork?

 

 

 

See the lady in heavy armor and a musket? I was so excited about it, I thought, damn this must be like a member of a specific army/kindgom who has been trained like that... The monk, naked & tatoos & s**t, cool so the class is supposed to be played like that! Well guess what, it doesn't matter, you just have to use whatever most op weapon/armor is available and go for it...

 

I like classes, but I like them even more when they are well defined in their playstyle.

 

This is btw a minor complain, so far I am loving the game.

How far have you gotten with each class?  The reason I ask is that I think certain classes have a ramp-up in power and identity.  For example, priests start off kind of weak and limited in my opinion, whereas in mid-game you become a decent disabler (repulsion seal) and buffer.  Late game, you get some excellent damage spells, such as Holy Fire, Pillars of Fire, and an electricity aura.  The role shifts over time and becomes more defined with levels. 

 

Early-game priest on Path of the Damned mode is like Dani Devito vs. the Predator at times.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Nixl

[brindle88]

I agree with the op and I have raised this issue many times.

 

Every class being able to use ranged weapons (including firearms) makes the ranged specialist classes redundant IMO.

 

I think he talking from a role playing perspective though. I also agree on this point.

[Nixl]

I agree with the op and I have raised this issue many times.

 

Every class being able to use ranged weapons (including firearms) makes the ranged specialist classes redundant IMO.

 

I think he talking from a role playing perspective though. I also agree on this point.

After reading your post, I think I understand the OP's post more.  Still, I think Priests and Druids fit roleplaying experience better than Warriors, but it takes several levels.

[Fenixp]

I think he talking from a role playing perspective though. I also agree on this point.

How does it make sense from roleplaying perspective that a bunch of your characters are physically not capable of lifting a firearm? I absolutely "loved" the situations at the beginning of the original Baldur's Gate with base weapons where my Cleric's mace broke, but it was okay since her inventory was filled with swords so she at least had basic means of self-defense, right? ... Rrrrriiight.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Fenixp

[Sedrefilos]

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

[Osvir]

Rework? Nah.. improve where able? Yes.

 

I've heard that in D&D Classes gain certain "status" depending on Level (Adventurer levels, Hero levels, Legendary levels, God levels etc.)

 

What are PoE's equivalent?

 

By PoE2 you should be around lvl 12-13. What does that mean? Are you a Hero? A Lord? A Champion? What significance does that have?

 

What sort of capabilities does a Fighter have as a Level 14+ Class? Can they do a "Knockdown Smash" and knockdown everyone in a radius aroubd them?

 

Can Rangers get a 2nd pet and could Wizards stack and cast several spells in quick succession? Druid, could they go into a Natural, Elemantalistic Rage? Chanters shattering mountains and causing avalanches with a whisper?

 

Of course, could be class specific gear as well, a special "Fighter Only" Heavy Armor, but that shouldn't mean that a Monk wouldn't be able to use any other Heavy Armor.

 

Just thoughts, writing on phone.

[rjshae]

Speaking of class-specific items, some class-locked optional enhancements would add some flavor. They just need to make sure the enhancements are removable, allowing others to be inserted instead.

[yoomazir]

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

And having all "classes" using the same gear & weapons is totally roleplaying no matter their background, suuuure

 

"Giving a stronger identity to classes is so un-rpg..." Obsidian forums, 2015.

Edited December 18, 2015 by yoomazir

[Zenbane]

I've heard that in D&D Classes gain certain "status" depending on Level (Adventurer levels, Hero levels, Legendary levels, God levels etc.)

What are PoE's equivalent?

Hopefully there will remain no equivalent since typically in D&D games the characters gain experience, thus levels, simply from killing mob's; whereas in PoE experience is gained from achieving a milestone (eg, complete a quest, add new beastiary entry). The reason traditional RPG games need to give a level-based reward, like a "status," is so that players can feel a sense of accomplishment after killing 10,000 rats. I see this as a false sense of accomplishment that is geared towards distracting players from the fact that they are engaging in an experience-wheel grind.

 

 

By PoE2 you should be around lvl 12-13. What does that mean? Are you a Hero? A Lord? A Champion? What significance does that have?

Again, simply gaining a level is not a real accomplishment. Instead, significance comes from standing and reputation, or faction ratings, which is earned or lost through player engagement in the gaming world.

 

 

What sort of capabilities does a Fighter have as a Level 14+ Class? Can they do a "Knockdown Smash" and knockdown everyone in a radius aroubd them?

Personally, I prefer the way Wizardry 8 does this, where it also does not matter what level the character has reached, but instead rewards the player for how the character is built. For instance, if your fighter reaches 100 Strength then a new powerful skill is unlocked. And the figher might reach 100 Strength around level 13, or maybe around level 17+ depending on how you built the class.

 

The common theme in your suggestions appears to be a false sense of reward from engaging in the dreaded exp grind. But I think you were just brainstorming in order to give a general counter-reply to the OP, in which case apologies if I honed in on the wrong point. Games like PoE and Wizardry do a much better job of giving proper reward for better player actions. At least in my opinion.

[Elerond]

 

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

And having all "classes" using the same gear & weapons is totally roleplaying no matter their background, suuuure

 

 

But all the characters have different gear & weapons depending on their background in PoE. If you player decide that they will change them to something else because roleplaying reasons that are valid you as player then it is roleplaying. If can prevents you doing such change then it isn't roleplaying it is just systemic limit.

[Zenbane]

 

 

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

And having all "classes" using the same gear & weapons is totally roleplaying no matter their background, suuuure

 

 

But all the characters have different gear & weapons depending on their background in PoE. If you player decide that they will change them to something else because roleplaying reasons that are valid you as player then it is roleplaying. If can prevents you doing such change then it isn't roleplaying it is just systemic limit.

 

 

Yeah that was a bit of a goofy thing for someone to say. "Having all classes use the same gear" ... is simply rephrasing from "making the roleplaying decision to have all classes use the same gear." Basically, yoomazir thinks that if you use your own decision making process to change or alter your current role, then you are no longer engaging in the act of role-playing; "if you aren't playing this one predefined role, then you aren't playing any role."

 

I assume then that any game with a dual- or multi-class system would cause his keyboard to lock up.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Zenbane

[yoomazir]

 

 

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

And having all "classes" using the same gear & weapons is totally roleplaying no matter their background, suuuure

 

 

But all the characters have different gear & weapons depending on their background in PoE. If you player decide that they will change them to something else because roleplaying reasons that are valid you as player then it is roleplaying. If can prevents you doing such change then it isn't roleplaying it is just systemic limit.

 

Yeah, that is true, but it's kinda strange that it's mostly land based, and sure each classes start with specific weapons which supposedly would give some identity to a class, sadly that means nothing since you can use anything else shortly after starting the game.

In that aspect the games resembles to Dark Souls, basically the "classes" are just what gear & stuff you start with, later on you can be whatever you want to be, if PoE wants to be that fine, but it would be better for it to remove all classes and just give the player to chose the gear & abilities he wants to start with, why bother creating classes if they mean nothing.

[yoomazir]

 

 

 

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

And having all "classes" using the same gear & weapons is totally roleplaying no matter their background, suuuure

 

 

But all the characters have different gear & weapons depending on their background in PoE. If you player decide that they will change them to something else because roleplaying reasons that are valid you as player then it is roleplaying. If can prevents you doing such change then it isn't roleplaying it is just systemic limit.

 

 

Yeah that was a bit of a goofy thing for someone to say. "Having all classes use the same gear" ... is simply rephrasing from "making the roleplaying decision to have all classes use the same gear." Basically, yoomazir thinks that if you use your own decision making process to change or alter your current role, then you are no longer engaging in the act of role-playing; "if you aren't playing this one predefined role, then you aren't playing any role."

 

I assume then that any game with a dual- or multi-class system would cause his keyboard to lock up.

 

I really shouldn't bother answering that kind of narrow minded post but I'd like to mention that I liked to play a pistol/hacker build in Shadowrun Chronicles, but I guess you don't care about that, just keep thinking that I just dislike diversity for the sake of disliking it, totally not about giving lore more consistency, good job bro.

Edited December 18, 2015 by yoomazir

[why]

I disagree with the OP entirely about putting a straightjacket on the characters through artificial restrictions. However, I can get the point about game based restrictions. It's not that monks cant wear armor, but perhaps their order oaths compel them to forgo armor. Even then, I don't think the game should be hardwired to prevent such use. If the monk runs into other people from his or her order, then there could be consequences. That's much better to my mind than having the arbitrary restriction. If a religious order prevents the use of edged weapons, then the player will be compelled to choose blunt weapons for his or her cleric, but a desperate priest might pick up a dagger if there's no other weapon. Perhaps that draws the attention of his deity. Perhaps, in a desperate situation, the cleric stands firm in his or her oaths and fights unarmed rather than break his vows. That likewise might draw the attention of his or her deity. These scenarios actually reward role playing as opposed to restricting player choice and calling that restriction itself role playing.

[Zenbane]

In that aspect the games resembles to Dark Souls, basically the "classes" are just what gear & stuff you start with, later on you can be whatever you want to be, if PoE wants to be that fine, but it would be better for it to remove all classes and just give the player to chose the gear & abilities he wants to start with, why bother creating classes if they mean nothing.

 

That's only true if you purposely ignore everything else in PoE that is class specific; which seems to be your favorite thing to do:

 

 

Why do you keep ignoring that all classes have completely unique mechanics which will only ever work with those classes? I said it twice already and each time you have jumped straight back to "But weapons!"

 

4 pages later and yoomazir still hasn't figured out that the classes can't just be whatever you want since each class has a completely unique set of mechanics. lol, but weapons!

[Sedrefilos]

 

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

And having all "classes" using the same gear & weapons is totally roleplaying no matter their background, suuuure

 

"Giving a stronger identity to classes is so un-rpg..." Obsidian forums, 2015.

 

At least this way you can roleplay however you want. You can say "my wizard cannot use 2-handed sword" and just never equip one to him/her. Same for any character. There you have it, problem solved for you.

[Fenixp]

In that aspect the games resembles to Dark Souls, basically the "classes" are just what gear & stuff you start with, later on you can be whatever you want to be, if PoE wants to be that fine, but it would be better for it to remove all classes and just give the player to chose the gear & abilities he wants to start with, why bother creating classes if they mean nothing.

All right, this argument is starting to slightly frustrate me, so I'm going to spell it out for you:

- Barbarian - abilities to cause AoE damage with melee weapons. Great at dealing with crowds.

- Cipher - regenerates 'mana' by attacking. It's a class which should be built as an offensive character and as a reward for this offensive, they'll receive more options in combat.

- Fighter - Traditional tank, able to engage many targets in combat and take damage, but also capable of dishing out a decent amount of single-target damage

- Paladin - Great tank and a support character who can help survivability of the party

- Chanter - highly adjustable character who can use various combinations of chants for offense, defense and support, while he can also work as a ranged fighter, tank or offense. And then he can cast limited spells.

- Wizard - very traditional wizard with daily amount of casts of crowd control and support spells, but his spells even give him the ability to be a frontline fighter if you build him well enough

- Druid - The only character who's able to shapeshift with very individual abilities based on what he shapeshifts into. Also sports a huge array of offensive spells.

- Ranger - massive ranged DPS and animal companion who, if built properly, can very nicely synergize with the ranger in taking down even the most powerful foes

- Monk - Can be just about anything you want him to be with a wounds system, unique to him, which allows him to use extremely powerful abilities based on how much damage he takes

- Rogue - highly mobile character, able to dash in and out of combat on a whim. Nightmare of squishy characters due to unique ability to cause massive amounts of damage to disabled targets in short timespan.

 

And then there are weapon focus talents, which give your chracters lore-based reasoning to use a certain weapon class and makes using any other weapon class inefficient. With a character who relies on a weapon, not taking weapon focus is not efficient.

[yoomazir]

 

 

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

And having all "classes" using the same gear & weapons is totally roleplaying no matter their background, suuuure

 

"Giving a stronger identity to classes is so un-rpg..." Obsidian forums, 2015.

 

At least this way you can roleplay however you want. You can say "my wizard cannot use 2-handed sword" and just never equip one to him/her. Same for any character. There you have it, problem solved for you.

 

It really shouldn't be able unless a specific school would trains you for it.

[Fenixp]

It really shouldn't be able unless a specific school would trains you for it.

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that all wizards come from a school?

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that wizards can't undergo training outside of that provided to them by a school?

[yoomazir]

 

It really shouldn't be able unless a specific school would trains you for it.

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that all wizards come from a school?

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that wizards can't undergo training outside of that provided to them by a school?

 

None, doesn't that bother you? Even for paladins, priests, monk & whatever? After all this game is kinda heavy with it's lore.

Edited December 18, 2015 by yoomazir

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Having class-locked gear is the second less role play-y thing in an rpg.

 

The first is dropping to j"r"pg levels

And having all "classes" using the same gear & weapons is totally roleplaying no matter their background, suuuure

 

"Giving a stronger identity to classes is so un-rpg..." Obsidian forums, 2015.

 

At least this way you can roleplay however you want. You can say "my wizard cannot use 2-handed sword" and just never equip one to him/her. Same for any character. There you have it, problem solved for you.

 

It really shouldn't be able unless a specific school would trains you for it.

 

 

Why not they just pick sword and starts to swing with it. They should not be as good as those who have trained to fight with such weapon specifically, but I don't see point why they could not try to use it.

 

PoE2 should have more weapon focus talents to give impression that one is actually trained to fight with certain set of weapons, but no restrictions what weapons characters can use.

[Zenbane]

I really shouldn't bother answering that kind of narrow minded post

 

Do you not see the irony in you calling my post narrow-minded when you have spent 4 pages repeatedly saying that the use of gear in PoE somehow eliminates the meaning of character classes in spite of the vast uniqueness found within each class? A person would have to view the entire class system in PoE with pure tunnel vision to believe that weapons and armor take away all meaning of a character class.

 

 

 

It really shouldn't be able unless a specific school would trains you for it.

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that all wizards come from a school?

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that wizards can't undergo training outside of that provided to them by a school?

 

It's in a gaming manual of D&D somewhere, I think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It really shouldn't be able unless a specific school would trains you for it.

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that all wizards come from a school?

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that wizards can't undergo training outside of that provided to them by a school?

 

None, doesn't that bother you? Even for paladins, priests, monk & whatever?

 

 

 

It doesn't bother anyone who has actually played PoE beyond a level 2 character, and fully understands the character class system. Hey look I found the website that you pirated the character lineup graphic from:

http://www.gamerevolution.com/features/a-guide-to-choosing-your-class-in-pillars-of-eternity

 

Did you not read the rest of it after taking the picture? Hint: it talks about more than just the weapons.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Zenbane

[Fenixp]

None, doesn't that bother you? Even for paladins, priests, monk & whatever?

No, why should it bother me? The lore already mentions paladin orders and monk schools, if I want my character to belong to one of the factions the very rich lore provides, I will construct my character in such a way that it fits these. There's nothing stopping me from doing that. But if I want to do something untraditional, like a man who's been suffering his whole life and managed to find strength and equilibrium in suffering, thus gaining same set of talents as a monk but using methods very untraditional for a monk - I can do that too and there's nothing stopping me.