A bit of a disappointment but at the same time a great RPG

[archangel979]

 

Elegant design is a bad design direction, interesting design is a good one. And PoE with its "elegant" design skipped on interesting design. 

I'm pretty sure that was a fabricated "best practice" spinoff that totally butchers real advice from real designers.

 

Some better quotes:

 

"The best software designs are ingeniously simple. They are elegant. Great software designers strip away all unnecessary complexity, hiding unavoidable complexity behind well-chosen abstractions."

 

"The word elegant, in general, is an adjective meaning of fine quality. Refinement and simplicity are implied, rather than fussiness, or ostentation."

 

 

The idea that "interesting design is good" makes absolutely no sense, since someone who has no idea how to design anything at all can find even the most terrible of designs to be "interesting." In this context, the word "interesting" can simply be replaced with "ignorant" and the word "elegant" can be replaced with the word "quality."

 

In which case we can see why that original advice was so terrible:

"Quality design is a bad design choice, ignorant design is a good one."

 

 

 

Also, some good links for Video Game design:

 

"7 sins of bad video game design"

https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2012/10/30/the-7-sins-of-bad-video-game-design/

 

"What makes a good game"

http://serc.carleton.edu/introgeo/games/goodgame.html

 

I seen that video, it is as clueless as you are. And you are pretty clueless for anyone that reads your discussions with Sensuki. (since you are calling me ignorant don't be surprised I return the favor). 

 

As for not designing anything, I don't need to I can just reference games with good and interesting design. Games that have withstood test of time and are even spawning KS campaigns based around them and now even getting a expansions. Games whose Enhanced Edition sells more copies that its Spiritual Successor while the original version also sold more AT the time of release when gamer population was much much less than today and there was no Steam and digital sales to allow ease of buying stuff to all over the world. 

 

You kid are idolizing false Gods. 

 

This game done properly could have and should have outsold BG games by a lot. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by archangel979

[Fenixp]

This game done properly could have and should have outsold BG games by a lot.

a) Call of Duty sells a lot better than Baldur's Gate. Therefore, Call of Duty is strictly and objectively better game. Is that correct? There's a reason why argumentum ad populum is fallacious.

b) Are you saying that an AAA mainstream RPG (Baldur's Gate) sold better and was a lot more popular than relatively small indie RPG (Pillars of Eternity)? Well... Yes. Yes, it did. It doesn't make it a better game, it just makes it a game which pioneered streamlining and simplification so it appeals to mainstream audience. Most of that audience moved on to other mainstream games and Pillars of Eternity is no longer an appealing concept to them.

c) Pillars of Eternity outsold Enhanced Edition of Baldur's Gate, by quite a large margin, I have no idea where you got the information that it's the other way around. Not sure what sales figures were for the original Baldur's Gate back when it got released, but I'm pretty sure they were higher than those of PoE.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Fenixp

[Zenbane]

As for not designing anything, I don't need to

 

If you wish to remain clueless about the terrible ideas you are defending, then of course you don't need to let experience interrupt your blind crusade. My links were to direct you towards experience, and instead you claim I'm clueless while defending your right to remain clueless. No wonder you believe interesting is better than elegance; one requires experience, education, and talent while the other lets you post anything on the Internet.

 

 

since you are calling me ignorant don't be surprised I return the favor

 

I actually said that the word "interesting" can be replaced with "clueless" which is different than calling you clueless, but as your emotions continue to get the better of you in this debate your reading comprehension is racing on the opposite end of the "elegant" spectrum.

 

You claim that interesting design is best yet you fail to say anything either interesting nor elegant, making your fight in this thread as intimidating as a muppet wielding a plastic spork.

 

 

You kid are idolizing false Gods.

 

Hmm, but you just said, "you are pretty clueless for anyone that reads your discussions with Sensuki," which I'm fairly certain confirms that He is your god and you are his prophet lol

 

 

 

This game done properly could have and should have outsold BG games by a lot.

 

Preaching from the Baldurs Gate bible will not get you to RPG heaven faster. PoE sales are fine, and will continue to increase as time and content evolves.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Zenbane

[limaxophobiacq]

I can call it whatever I want as it is my opinion and how I see it and feel about it. How about you dont' tell me how to express myself? 

 

IE games (and D&D) are proof of interesting design done well. PoE is proof of low effort boring spells. 

 

 

'Low effort' is not an opinion or a feeling, it is a statement about the work required to design a certain system. In this case you are simply wrong, it does not take less effort to design an elegant system than an 'interesting' one.

[PrimeJunta]

Interesting design:

 

 

Elegant design:

 

 

I know which one I prefer.

[Gfted1]

The blonde?

[archangel979]

 

This game done properly could have and should have outsold BG games by a lot.

a) Call of Duty sells a lot better than Baldur's Gate. Therefore, Call of Duty is strictly and objectively better game. Is that correct? There's a reason why argumentum ad populum is fallacious.

b) Are you saying that an AAA mainstream RPG (Baldur's Gate) sold better and was a lot more popular than relatively small indie RPG (Pillars of Eternity)? Well... Yes. Yes, it did. It doesn't make it a better game, it just makes it a game which pioneered streamlining and simplification so it appeals to mainstream audience. Most of that audience moved on to other mainstream games and Pillars of Eternity is no longer an appealing concept to them.

c) Pillars of Eternity outsold Enhanced Edition of Baldur's Gate, by quite a large margin, I have no idea where you got the information that it's the other way around. Not sure what sales figures were for the original Baldur's Gate back when it got released, but I'm pretty sure they were higher than those of PoE.

 

a) Strawman

b) Excuse. They not only promised quality of BG games, the promised a game of combined quality of all IE games. We didn't even get BG1EE quality.

c) It sold more than 1 000 000 on all platforms.

Edited December 8, 2015 by archangel979

[archangel979]

 

I can call it whatever I want as it is my opinion and how I see it and feel about it. How about you dont' tell me how to express myself? 

 

IE games (and D&D) are proof of interesting design done well. PoE is proof of low effort boring spells.

 

'Low effort' is not an opinion or a feeling, it is a statement about the work required to design a certain system. In this case you are simply wrong, it does not take less effort to design an elegant system than an 'interesting' one.

 

It is not a feeling but it is surely an opinion just like everything you say as well.

[Tigranes]

Eager as everybody seems to be to make dramatic pronouncements about the worth of another human being, discussing the game and the arguments is probably more effective. And less excruciating to read. Can we relax a bit?

[Zenbane]

 

 

I can call it whatever I want as it is my opinion and how I see it and feel about it. How about you dont' tell me how to express myself? 

 

IE games (and D&D) are proof of interesting design done well. PoE is proof of low effort boring spells.

 

'Low effort' is not an opinion or a feeling, it is a statement about the work required to design a certain system. In this case you are simply wrong, it does not take less effort to design an elegant system than an 'interesting' one.

 

It is not a feeling but it is surely an opinion just like everything you say as well.

 

 

"Low effort" is not an opinion, it is something that is measurable and can be quantified. That is literally the exact opposite of an opinion.

 

You are pretending it is an opinion in order to justify saying something that is completely incorrect.

 

The actual effort can be measured and can be factually concluded as residing in a category that exceeds the basic understanding of "low." If anything, it is either "medium" or "hard."

 

Elegant Facts > Uninteresting Opinions

[Fenixp]

a) Strawman

You literally said:

"This game done properly could have and should have outsold BG games by a lot." If what you meant wasn't "IE games are better because they sell better", what did you mean?

 

b) Excuse. They not only promised quality of BG games, the promised a game of combined quality of all IE games. We didn't even get BG1EE quality.

I just stopped playing BG1EE. It absolutely pales in comparison with Pillars of Eternity. Vast majority of that game is standing in place, auto-attacking. Conversations don't even give you an option to role-play 99% of the time. All maps contain one quest and one NPC which will talk to you, there's barely ever more than that. And I'm not criticizing the original BG for that, it's an ancient game, of course it's going to sport ancient design (altho Fallout was out at that time. Bioware, damnit.) Still, I sure would not want Pillars of Eternity downgraded to BG1 quality.

 

And how is sales comparison between mainstream AAA title and an indie RPG an 'excuse'? That's a fact, it's pretty difficult to deny.

 

c) It sold more than 1 000 000 on all platforms.

Info I have managed to find in the meantime is leaning more towards a 1.500.000 figure.

[archangel979]

Haha, devs deleted my other posts as well. Awesome. Have fun on nazi forum. if you noobs want talk without nazi mods come to Codex.

[limaxophobiacq]

Funny, on forums I'm usually on you'd have been banned for a month, others would have been warned, and the thread closed.

 

Personally I find moderation here to be a bit to relaxed.

Edited December 8, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[Zenbane]

Funny, on forums I'm usually on you'd have been banned for a month, others would have been warned, and the thread closed.

 

Personally I find moderation here to be pretty lax.

 

It is extremely lax here, and unlike most other forums I actually like and dare I say... respect the Moderators here. This silly guy, however, is upset because he uses words like "nazi" and gets upset that he is censored. The irony behind that is fantastic.

[Cantousent]

Yeah, we're a bunch of lazy bastards. I'll tell you what, archangel, you're still welcome. This is a great place to discuss games and, if you want to do so, feel free. When we get into calling 'people' ignorant or whatnot, then you're going to end having posts gulaged. I say this to you in this thread so other folks can see it as perhaps clarifying how this forum works. We pride ourselves and letting folks speak their minds and blow off steam. ...And I'd already let at least one report in thread slide before a bunch of people (not just you) had their posts gulaged.

 

What I'm getting at is that it's okay to rebut someone's argument or attack their position. We just don't want folks to be the object of personal ridicule. I'll often edit out these things and leave the rest of the post, but if it gets to be too much of a chore, I'll remove the whole thing. In this case, I'm not the moderator who axed the posts, but I agree with the one who did completely.

 

So, go to the Codex and blow off some steam, but if you want to come back later and duke it out with folks, we're here and we'll welcome you. :Cant's slapping archangel on the back icon:

 

Meanwhile, having hopefully clarified the situation, I'll ask you to take further discussion about moderating to PMs. You can always PM one of the mods to personally argue your case.

 

Once again, I'll keep my opinions about the topic to myself.

[Gfted1]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, Ill have you know my parents were married when I was born. Hmph.

[rheingold]

Where on earth did this crazy idea that d&d was a good / elegant system come from?

I started playing early eighties, and I absolutely love it and its various iterations, my life would have been poorer without it.

But a good system? Really folks? For its time it was fantastic, visionary I dare say thanks to Mr Gygax. But looking back, there are huge faults with the system and its offshoots especially when it was roped into video game service. Pillars is far superior and indeed more elegant. People who say otherwise really need to take their rose tinted glasses off occasionally. May even see things clearer.

Not suggesting that Pillars is perfect, far from it, but compared to d&d, it's far better.

Edited December 8, 2015 by rheingold

[Agone]

Spells in PoE are ok but the design is not elegant. Everything is forced into the same formula, the same schematic.

I.E is fine handcrafting whereas PoE is more industrial mass design.

As a result PoE is easier to design, grasp and balance but lack finesse and depth as Archangel979 pointed out

[SamHam]

Seems that this discussion has boiled down to bureaucrats nitpicking wording I'm sure the lady in perfect housewife is elegant and all, but I'd say Bellucci of 1992 is much more interesting in tickling my fancy. It simply boils down to Pillars having restrained and "rational" magic, while BG had boundless magic and countless ways of empowering a mage/parties to levels only suited by the advanced tactics mod, which seems kinda broken, albeit fun :D It would be nice if PoE 2 would cater to both mindsets, although I'm sure other classes would need slight rethinking, too.

[Zenbane]

It is possible to be both interesting and elegant - these only became mutually exclusive because of a video game debate gone wrong lol

 

Elegance should be interesting for anyone who, you know, has standards n' stuff. Comparing PoE's magic system to games like Final Fantasy, Diablo, Wizardry, Elder Scrolls, and Baldur's Gate doesn't reveal anything in regards to "interesting vs elegant," it simply reveals different levels of elegance which some may find more interesting than others.

 

 

 

 

Everything is forced into the same formula, the same schematic.

 

Were you planning on describing the details of this formula/schematic, or was this just a quick drive-by-labeling?

Edited December 9, 2015 by Zenbane

[Agone]

It is possible to be both interesting and elegant - these only became mutually exclusive because of a video game debate gone wrong lol

 

Elegance should be interesting for anyone who, you know, has standards n' stuff. Comparing PoE's magic system to games like Final Fantasy, Diablo, Wizardry, Elder Scrolls, and Baldur's Gate doesn't reveal anything in regards to "interesting vs elegant," it simply reveals different levels of elegance which some may find more interesting than others.

 

 

 

 

Everything is forced into the same formula, the same schematic.

 

Were you planning on describing the details of this formula/schematic, or was this just a quick drive-by-labeling?

 

Read a bit about the game, play it and you should be able to understand the relation between accuracy and the 4 main defenses.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Agone

[Zenbane]

So you're hoping to stay vague enough to avoid a fact-based discussion. Well that's a more creative approach than saying "it's just an opinion" lol

 

This isn't about the 4 main defenses, this is about the spell system. Chanter vs Druid vs Mage vs Priest

 

What's the mystery formula/schematic that is copy pasted across them all?

[haveahappy]

Where on earth did this crazy idea that d&d was a good / elegant system come from?

I started playing early eighties, and I absolutely love it and its various iterations, my life would have been poorer without it.

But a good system? Really folks? For its time it was fantastic, visionary I dare say thanks to Mr Gygax. But looking back, there are huge faults with the system and its offshoots especially when it was roped into video game service. Pillars is far superior and indeed more elegant. People who say otherwise really need to take their rose tinted glasses off occasionally. May even see things clearer.

Not suggesting that Pillars is perfect, far from it, but compared to d&d, it's far better.

 

Amen to that. I dare anyone to crack open the 2e DnD reprints (off which the Baldur's Gate ruleset was based) and have a read. The game is nigh unplayable by modern standards (as is Baldur's Gate - go on, burn me at the stake).

 

If anything, Pillars is still too much like DnD, IMO.

With that said, it is "infinitely" (DYSWIDT?) better and nicer to play than BG. So... progress!

[PrimeJunta]

Read a bit about the game, play it and you should be able to understand the relation between accuracy and the 4 main defenses.

This is just a silly argument. You might as well say that AD&D magic is all about the relationship between level and one of the 5 saving throws.

[brindle88]

I've been playing PoE for some time now and I'd like to post my thoughts, so others may offer their opinion.

 

The first thing I noticed, is that "magic" in general is very dispappointing. For someone who played "Dungeon Master" in the 80's and later "Eye of the Beholder" series and other RPG games, the PoE really makes me feel like the makers of the game dislike magic or for some reason decided to "down play" magic in this game a bit too much. That was my greatest disappointment.

 

Next, I realized that no matter how great are my battles, no matter how many hours I spend over and over the same battle to finish it in the coolest way possible, I get no XP at the end of it. Which is rather sad and the game looses something of its essense.

 

Note that I'm playing with the latest patched version and the game has been around for quite a while. You'd expect that most bugs would have been ironed out. Still, the game is rather buggy, it crashed a couple of times, some moster descriptions come up with "??" instead of real numeric values and there are lots of graphics issues (like the robe a character is wearing, stays "floating" when the character is prone, or doesn't stick to his back on large persons, etc).

 

Anyway, ignoring the complete and utter destruction of proper magic in the game and the bugs, the game plays (with a non-magic character of course) like a true RPG game. Great improvement in character interaction, lots of interesting features like the documenting of the journal with the quests and side-quests.

 

I also like a challenge and PoE allows me to play in Hard mode, which is ideal for me. I tried the Path of the Damned, which offered an even greater challenge, but I got quite disappointed with the lack of XP, so it really made no sense to continue in this mode, so I switched to Hard.

 

Anyway, overall I like the game, but if I was aware of the lack of proper magic, then I would never have gotten it. Total deal-breaker.

 

I'd appreciate what others think..

 

Thank you.

I think what he is getting at is that you don't need to hardly ever use magic as you can get away with just using 2 tanks and firearms in a party of six (even on POTD).

 

But magic can still be used effectively, you just don't need it.