Turkey shoots down russian jet

[Meshugger]

 

Again, shooting unarmed soldiers in combat is simply evil to the core.

 

Who here has suggested otherwise? No one but you has made a value judgment about it. However it's kinda suspect that your outrage is always directed the same way. I don't remember you being so upset when a MSF hospital was bombed in the 'stan a few weeks ago. Or when Israeli commandos infiltrated a hospital in the West Bank to assassinate a patient. Or...

 

 

I know that you're a bright kid with the heart in the right place, but now you're just debating for the sake of debating. 

[Zoraptor]

Except the Russians admitted that they were in Turkish airspace on both prior occasions but said it was a "mistake" caused by "navigational error" or "weather conditions" (the reason tends to vary depending on the phases of the moon).    

 

Google it yourself.

 

In this case you probably should have googled it yourself first. Russia admitted to one intrusion only, and when they "went further and locked up two F-16Cs with missile locks while still in Turkish territory" one was not in Turkish territory and was- according to the Turks- a Mig29 and hence SyAF, since everyone agrees the Russians have zero actual Migs in theatre.

 

Full reuters quote addressing both issues:

 

The Russian Defence Ministry had said that an SU-30 warplane had entered Turkish air space along the border with Syria "for a few seconds" on Saturday, a mistake caused by bad weather. NATO says a plane also entered Turkish air space on Sunday, an incident Russia says it is looking into.

A U.S. official told Reuters the incursions had lasted more than a few seconds and described Moscow's assertion that they were an accident as "far-fetched".

The Turkish military said a further incident took place on Monday when a MIG-29 fighter and Syria-based missile systems "interfered" with eight Turkish F-16 jets patrolling along the Syrian border.

The MIG-29 locked its radar onto the Turkish patrol for 4 minutes 30 seconds, and a Syria-based missile system locked onto them for 4 minutes 15 seconds, the Turkish military said. Russia flies MIG-29s, as does Syria's own air force. 

Stoltenberg said the U.S.-led alliance had not received "any real explanation" from Russia about the incursions.

 

 

Also, official Turkish claim to the UN is 17 seconds of airspace violation which is at least roughly accurate for crossing a 2 km wide strip twice as they claimed.

[Malcador]

 

 

 

I see no point in antagonizing the Turks over a meaningless and tiny strip of land,

Neither do I and yet here we are. As I said a little restraint on both sides would not have out of order.

 

@Hildegard -

 

Assuming a straight line path, the flying time is less than a minute - (6 - 8 km / 800 kph) * 3600 secs/hr = 27 - 36 seconds. The claim was that the Russian Su-24 was warned 10 times over a 5 minute interval but that the warnings began prior to the Su-24 crossing Turkish airspace. As in "change course you are about to violate Turkish airspace" which is exactly what you would expect. Again it's a matter of when the warnings were issued and why they were ignored.

 

Of course you're simply free to view the insidious Turks as having schemed and plotted to shoot down a Russian aircraft. If so, I suggest you ask Gifted1 if he can also hook you up with some of that Fantastic Illuminati Mayonaise.

Not sure Turkey is all that on the up, anyway.

[Hildegard]

 

 

 I see no point in antagonizing the Turks over a meaningless and tiny strip of land,

 

Neither do I and yet here we are.  As I said a little restraint on both sides would not have out of order.

 

@Hildegard -

 

Assuming a straight line path, the flying time is less than a minute - (6 - 8 km / 800 kph) * 3600 secs/hr = 27 - 36 seconds.  The claim was that the Russian Su-24 was warned 10 times over a 5 minute interval but that the warnings began prior to the Su-24 crossing Turkish airspace.  As in "change course you are about to violate Turkish airspace"  which is exactly what you would expect.   Again it's a matter of when the warnings were issued and why they were ignored.     

 

Of course you're simply free to view the insidious Turks as having schemed and plotted to shoot down a Russian aircraft.  If so, I suggest you ask Gifted1 if he can also hook you up with some of that Fantastic Illuminati Mayonaise.

 

 

Deliberate shooting of a Russian plane by the Turks equals Illuminati conspiracy theories. Hahaha, you're mental. 

 

Here's another conspiracy junk for you:

 

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/668904110121484288

 

$2 question, who do you think they targeted? Was it ISIS maybe? 

 

The Turks are one of ISIS strongest allies in this fight for years, and that's no Alien - Vatican conspiracy for you.

 

Of course, you won't here that on government filtered propaganda like most of western media. 

 

Back to the theme in question, standard protocol in intercepting foreign planes is warning, intercepting and only then hostile action when you don't manage to drive off the plane. Guess we jumped from one to three really fast.

 

And then just in that area the Turkmen rebels were ready for the Russians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IschF-ihjS0&feature=youtu.be

 

Did you see that video with the dead Russian pilot? Love those 'moderate' rebels in Syria, really nice secularized folks. Hope they lead the new Syria into a better tomorrow with freedom and democracy on top. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Hildegard

[Zoraptor]

Supposedly the plane was warned for 5 minutes 10 times while in Turkish airspace. So I guess the Su-24 was flying what, 50kph according to the Turks? Hahaha what a joke.

 

You could actually run across the Turkish territory faster than their initial claim, it's only 1.5-2km wide, you can measure it yourself. Unsurprisingly Turkey has rather enlarged and enhanced the width of that territorial peninsula on their radar trace, it's extremely narrow. However, the initial claim may well have either been a translation error or the period in Turkey's self declared exclusion zone rather than actual intrusion. Either way that story lasted about 5 minutes itself before it was changed.

 

 

 

Of course you're simply free to view the insidious Turks as having schemed and plotted to shoot down a Russian aircraft.  If so, I suggest you ask Gifted1 if he can also hook you up with some of that Fantastic Illuminati Mayonaise.

 

 

Deliberate shooting of a Russian plane by the Turks equals Illuminati conspiracy theories. Hahaha, you're mental. 

 

 

Yeah, not exactly rational analysis. Even according to the Turkish story the jet must have been either fired on while outside Turkish airspace or hit while outside it, both of which are legally dubious and both of which say it was both 100% deliberate action and 100% deliberate escalation. There's no way at all that it wasn't calculated, it was the right target- the oldest plane the Russians have in theatre- and not a fighter as various media refer to it as- there were cameras, plural, ready to capture the moment the plane was hit not just when it crashed, the pilots were captured by a direct Turkish proxy and the more general Turkish acts in the area have been consistent with such an interpretation. Not only have they shot down the russian jet, they've also attacked the closest thing to genuinely moderate rebels (YPG) repeatedly and their known proxies have been routinely attacking the specific anti-ISIS force on the ground as well.

 

The worst thing is the execution of the pilots by the Turkish proxies though. For those defending Turkey just imagine if Iran shot down a US warplane and Kataib Hezbollah then machine gunned them in the air and what the response would be and whether anything Iran said would be listened to.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Volourn]

LMAO  People so convioluted they are defending Russia here. How anti western bias can you get. No doubt if  some country  was skriting Russia's air space Russia would shoot them down after  less than 10 warnings. Also, I have no doubt the Russia RaRa crowd would be celebrating if  some country shot down an US plane for threatening their airspace. How can people be up Nazi Russia's butt? LMAO

 

Russia and their fanboys are just shocked that Turkey didn't roll over to their bukllying, and games like the West does when Russia plays their little war games. That includes the US. Russia has skirited  NA airpspace time and time again and nothing is done by US and Kanada except spamming words. Russia didn't think a  country 'beneath' them would dare take a shot.

 

Too bad for the pilots as that is a waste iof life but Russia the Country got what they deserved.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Volourn

[Qistina]

I think the solution now is Russia must sent Muslim troops, this will make it is not holy war between Muslims and Infidels, the reason Turkey shot down the plane is to make Muslims the whole world don't support Russia because it is a general rule, if there is holy war between Muslims and Infidels, all Muslims must support Muslims.

 

To troll that, Russian sent Muslim troop in Russian army, and the non-Muslims just relax...this will neutralize the hype that Russians are infidel who want to kill Muslims in Syria

 

Russia must also not showing they are devout Orthodox Christian or Communist whatever, they must show their troops are Muslims

Edited November 25, 2015 by Qistina

[Volourn]

"except that may God have mercy on your soul."

 

Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Volourn

[kgambit]

 

Except the Russians admitted that they were in Turkish airspace on both prior occasions but said it was a "mistake" caused by "navigational error" or "weather conditions" (the reason tends to vary depending on the phases of the moon).    

 

Google it yourself.

 

In this case you probably should have googled it yourself first. Russia admitted to one intrusion only, and when they "went further and locked up two F-16Cs with missile locks while still in Turkish territory" one was not in Turkish territory and was- according to the Turks- a Mig29 and hence SyAF, since everyone agrees the Russians have zero actual Migs in theatre.

 

Full reuters quote addressing both issues:

 

The Russian Defence Ministry had said that an SU-30 warplane had entered Turkish air space along the border with Syria "for a few seconds" on Saturday, a mistake caused by bad weather. NATO says a plane also entered Turkish air space on Sunday, an incident Russia says it is looking into.

A U.S. official told Reuters the incursions had lasted more than a few seconds and described Moscow's assertion that they were an accident as "far-fetched".

The Turkish military said a further incident took place on Monday when a MIG-29 fighter and Syria-based missile systems "interfered" with eight Turkish F-16 jets patrolling along the Syrian border.

The MIG-29 locked its radar onto the Turkish patrol for 4 minutes 30 seconds, and a Syria-based missile system locked onto them for 4 minutes 15 seconds, the Turkish military said. Russia flies MIG-29s, as does Syria's own air force. 

Stoltenberg said the U.S.-led alliance had not received "any real explanation" from Russia about the incursions.

 

 

Also, official Turkish claim to the UN is 17 seconds of airspace violation which is at least roughly accurate for crossing a 2 km wide strip twice as they claimed.

 

 

 

The information on the October 5th incident is interesting but immaterial since I never mentioned it or referred to it.  I was referring strictly to the incidents on October 3 and 4 which involved Russian Su-30s.  Since you're using the Aviationist as a source, the previous Avationist article (linked at the top of your Aviationist article) reports that Turkish airspace was violated on both the 3rd and 4th which your Reuter's source also confirms.  The second Aviationist article also mentions that one or both of the F-16Cs were locked up.  So the only point of disagreement is if two planes were locked up or only one, and whether the lock-ups occurred on successive days or only the 3rd. I have information that says the lock-ups occurred on both days.  And according to Al Jazeera, the Russians did admit to both incursions.   

 

During these October airspace violations, which Russia admitted to, a Russian Su-30SM fighter actively locked on to the Turkish F-16s sent to intercept it with its radar for over five minutes - an aggressive action outside of the accepted military procedures for such encounters.

 

 

and the article goes on .......

 

Despite the provocative action, the Russian Ministry of Defence claimed that the violations of Turkish airspace on consecutive days in early October were an accidental result of pilots getting lost.

 

This is not a credible explanation since modern combat aircraft such as the Su-30SM have sophisticated navigation systems and the Russian Air Force crews sent to Syria will be highly trained and selected, precisely because the operational environment is so congested and highly sensitive.

 

 

That's freaking laughable given the avionics on the Su-30.  That's the avionics equivalent of "the dog ate my homework". Notice that the Russian MOD refers to " consecutive incursions of Turkish airspace" - plural.  The only early October incursions were the three on October 3rd, 4th and 5th and since  the Russians would have no reason to offer an explanation for a Syrian incursion the Russian MOD must be referring to the two successive violations of Turkish airspace on the 3rd and 4th.  

 

Just so we are clear, I never claimed that Turkish airspace was violated for 5 minutes.  I said that the Su-30 maintained missile lock for over 5 minutes.  Again that's what your sources agree on.  Frankly the Russian Su-30s could have stayed entirely on the Syrian side and the missile lock up would still be a provocative hostile act.

 

If the ONLY incident involving the Russian violation of Turkish airspace had been the October 3rd incident with a missile lock up involving a single Turkish F-16C, that would have been sufficient for the Turks to have altered their ROEs.  The subsequent incidents on October 4th and 5th, just made that decision easier.  

 

Again your point about the Mig-29 being outside of Turkish airspace is immaterial since I never mentioned that incident.  But it's interesting to note that Reuters agrees that a missile lockup is, well let's say, out of the ordinary just to be generous.

 

 

As already reported, on Oct. 3 and 4 October the Turkish airspace was violated by Russian Air Force Su-30SM and Su-24 aircraft in the Hatay region.

During the first incident, the Russian Su-30SM (initially referred to as a Mig-29 by the Turkish military) maintained a radar lock on one or both the F-16s for a full 5 minutes and 40 seconds before the aircraft departed the Turkish airspace. As explained, this was a rather unusual incident: violations occur every now and then, but usually aircraft involved in the interception do not lock on the “target” in order to prevent dangerous situations.

Well it happened again on Oct. 5 and, to make the whole story more mysterious, it looks like the aircraft was identified as a Mig-29 from an unidentified nation/air force.

According to the Turkish General Staff, the Mig-29 locked on at least one of 8 TuAF F-16s performing CAP (Combat Air Patrol) on the border with Syria. What is more, the lock on lasted 4 minutes and 30 seconds.

 

 

I'm not sure what you think is wrong with that radar track unless you simply doubt the source entirely.  It has no scale to go by and the border area appears to be drawn on - so I'm not expecting the border to be totally accurate, but it does show that very narrow spit of land where the Su-24 allegedly crossed.   To be honest, only a black box recording coupled with actual radar tracking data overlayed on an accurate full scale map will assuage any issues over what exactly happened.  The track does seem to indicate that that the Russian incursion did occur albeit briefly and the Turkish response was extremely rapid, claims of premeditation notwithstanding.    

 

One could just as easily question the Russian motives for providing the provocation in the first place.  Or the reasons for the incidents on the 3rd and 4th.  And by extension, were the Syrians proxies for the Russians for the events on the 5th.  Seriously, the Russians (and Syrians) lock up Turkish aircraft, and violate Turkish airspace and this is all the Turks fault?      

 

All the Russians had to do was make a minor course adjustment and in seconds they would have avoided any incursion across that inconsequential strip of land and there would have been no problem. So explain to me WHY they didn't.  (Short of denying the warnings were actually given.)

 

 

Just out of curiosity, reports are that one of the Russian pilots is confirmed dead, shot by Turkmen fighters.   Is the fate of the second pilot confirmed?

Edited November 25, 2015 by kgambit

[Ineth]

People so convioluted they are defending Russia here. How anti western bias can you get.

 

None of the involved parties (Russia, Turkey, Syria, Turkmen rebels, ISIS, Kurds) are Western - so while it's true that some of this forum's resident Russian nationalists have strong anti-Western biases, your comment seems misplaced in this context.

 

For what it's worth, Turkey was on a path of Westernization and secularization, but Erdogan - dreaming of becoming the leader of the Islamic world - reversed that course and steered the country back towards Islamic authoritarianism and imperialism.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass.

/thread

[Qistina]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWEAE7Xnsc

[Malcador]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-impact-idUSKBN0TE04M20151125#JiVH0ojGOa1qAwEL.97

 

Might be BS ?

[Qistina]

USA support ISIS

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eff9cZe0SrM

[Agiel]

There were eight Soviet Frontal Aviation aircraft shot down by the Pakistanis during the course of the Soviet Union's involvement in Afghanistan, and five MiG-21s flown by clandestine Soviet flyers were brought down by the IAF towards the end of the War of Attrition, so this isn't exactly something totally without precedent.

 

 

Just so we are clear, I never claimed that Turkish airspace was violated for 5 minutes.  I said that the Su-30 maintained missile lock for over 5 minutes.  Again that's what your sources agree on.  Frankly the Russian Su-30s could have stayed entirely on the Syrian side and the missile lock up would still be a provocative hostile act.

 

If the ONLY incident involving the Russian violation of Turkish airspace had been the October 3rd incident with a missile lock up involving a single Turkish F-16C, that would have been sufficient for the Turks to have altered their ROEs.  The subsequent incidents on October 4th and 5th, just made that decision easier.  

 

Again your point about the Mig-29 being outside of Turkish airspace is immaterial since I never mentioned that incident.  But it's interesting to note that Reuters agrees that a missile lockup is, well let's say, out of the ordinary just to be generous.

 

 

Quote

As already reported, on Oct. 3 and 4 October the Turkish airspace was violated by Russian Air Force Su-30SM and Su-24 aircraft in the Hatay region.

During the first incident, the Russian Su-30SM (initially referred to as a Mig-29 by the Turkish military) maintained a radar lock on one or both the F-16s for a full 5 minutes and 40 seconds before the aircraft departed the Turkish airspace. As explained, this was a rather unusual incident: violations occur every now and then, but usually aircraft involved in the interception do not lock on the “target” in order to prevent dangerous situations.

Well it happened again on Oct. 5 and, to make the whole story more mysterious, it looks like the aircraft was identified as a Mig-29 from an unidentified nation/air force.

According to the Turkish General Staff, the Mig-29 locked on at least one of 8 TuAF F-16s performing CAP (Combat Air Patrol) on the border with Syria. What is more, the lock on lasted 4 minutes and 30 seconds.

 

 

 

This can be especially egregious given that in certain visibility conditions (i.e. Beyond Visual Range-engagement, angels below 25, so no contrails), the pilots could potentially have absolutely no idea an Alamo was on its way at any point during those five minutes and forty seconds. Most missile approach warning systems can only detect a rocket plume from so far away (and probably not in the case of a BVR missile with a kinematic range of up to 70nm), and radar warning receivers make no distinction between being put in a continuous wave track by a Su-27 or being illuminated for a SARH missile.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Agiel

[Zoraptor]

the Russians did admit to both incursions.

 

Mostly I'm wondering what the asterisks you're going on about, there's a whole lot of windmill tilting going on there. The Turkish accusation was that the Su-30 was in their airspace for minutes, it's them saying that nothing to do with me saying it, and since you referred to 2 F16s being locked onto I presumed you meant the two incidents in which that happened, one of which was the Mig29 which everyone agrees wasn't in Turkish airspace and Turkey did claim was russian.

 

As for the quoted section got an actual cite, from Russian officials, for an admission to both incursions? Because both the AJE Moscow correspondent and RT said today that only one incident had been admitted to, by Russia, and everything else I've seen is people citing the Turkish accusation and Russian admission, singular.

 

As for the pilot, he may have been rescued. Should be taken with large grain of salt until there's official confirmation/ pictures, of course, though the rebels are claiming both are dead still. The navigator is definitely dead, and definitely shot while descending by Turkish proxies.

 

An interesting aside is that the Russians are insisting their helicopter was destroyed by a mortar despite the pretty clear video evidence it was destroyed on the ground after abandonment and not by a mortar, presumably because the sight of a clearly german origin, US manufactured TOW destroying the helicopter would be very inflammatory if admitted to.

[ktchong]

In 2012, when Syria shot down a Turkish jet that had entered Syrian airspace, Turkey's then-PM and current President Erdogan said, "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack."  NATO  condemned Syria for shooting down the Turkish jet, and said the shooting down of the plane was "unacceptable" and a "disregard for international norm," and they stood together with Turkey "in the spirit of strong solidarity".

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

 

Yet again, the double-standard hypocrisy of the West is laid bare for all to witness.

Edited November 25, 2015 by ktchong

[Meshugger]

"except that may God have mercy on your soul."

 

Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass.

 

I'll forgive you.

[kgambit]

 

 

 and since you referred to 2 F16s being locked onto ........

 

 

 from the first Aviationist article again

 

Furthermore, it seems that the Russian Su-30SM  ......  maintained a radar lock on one or both the F-16s for a full 5 minutes and 40 seconds.

 

 

Why you keep bringing up the Syrian Mig incident is beyond me.  I never mentioned it.  What you assume is not my problem. 

 

From NATO on October 5th:  http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_123392.htm

 

Russian military actions have reached a more dangerous level with the recent violations of Turkish airspace on 3 October and 4 October by Russian Air Force SU-30 and SU-24 aircraft in the Hatay region. The aircraft in question entered Turkish airspace despite Turkish authorities’ clear, timely and repeated warnings. In accordance with NATO practice, Turkish fighter aircraft responded to these incursions by closing to identify the intruder, after which the Russian planes departed Turkish airspace.

 

 

Given the Russian explanations for why the first incursion on October 3rd occurred, you'll excuse me if I refuse to accept anything they say as fact regarding either of those incidents or this one.  YMMV

Edited November 25, 2015 by kgambit

[Drowsy Emperor]

Its rather obvious that the plane was targeted before it even entered Turkish air space, with the famous 15 seconds over Turkish territory being the filmiest excuse ever for what is essentially an ambush. They even picked a plane that is essentially defenseless and an easy target, just in case.  

 

Now with the S400 being set up on the ground and the cruiser near the Syrian coast I sincerely hope they try this again.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Elerond]

 

Given the Russian explanations for why the first incursion on October 3rd occurred, you'll excuse me if I refuse to accept anything they say as fact regarding either of those incidents or this one.  YMMV

 

 

You don't believe their claim that fighter flew Turkish airspace to get rid of radar lock by unknown SAM?

 

http://www.janes.com/article/55776/russian-jet-was-avoiding-sam-system-when-it-flew-into-turkish-airspace

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

 and since you referred to 2 F16s being locked onto ........

 

 

 from the first Aviationist article again

 

Furthermore, it seems that the Russian Su-30SM  ......  maintained a radar lock on one or both the F-16s for a full 5 minutes and 40 seconds.

 

 

Why you keep bringing up the Syrian Mig incident is beyond me.  I never mentioned it.  What you assume is not my problem. 

 

From NATO on October 5th:  http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_123392.htm

 

Russian military actions have reached a more dangerous level with the recent violations of Turkish airspace on 3 October and 4 October by Russian Air Force SU-30 and SU-24 aircraft in the Hatay region. The aircraft in question entered Turkish airspace despite Turkish authorities’ clear, timely and repeated warnings. In accordance with NATO practice, Turkish fighter aircraft responded to these incursions by closing to identify the intruder, after which the Russian planes departed Turkish airspace.

 

 

Given the Russian explanations for why the first incursion on October 3rd occurred, you'll excuse me if I refuse to accept anything they say as fact regarding either of those incidents or this one.  YMMV

 

 

This is your attitude in a nutshell:

 

Edited November 25, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[kgambit]

@Elerond

 

No. If the Russian Su-30 was simply going defensive as claimed in the Jane's article, there would be no reason for the Su-30 pilot to go for a radar lock on a Turkish aircraft and maintain it for over 5 minutes. The two actions are incompatible.

Edited November 25, 2015 by kgambit

[Elerond]

@Elerond

 

No. If the Russian Su-30 was simply going defensive as claimed in the Jane's article, there would be no reason for the Su-30 pilot to go for a radar lock on a Turkish aircraft and maintain it for over 5 minutes. The two actions are incompatible.

 

It depends. Pilot may have tried to identify target that locked his plane by locking all the targets that his radar shows. Which of course is not best course of action but inside of reasonable behavior if pilot panicked for example. 

 

But anyway I haven't hear reasonable explanation why Russians would have done it for any other reason.  Of course they have history of poking and testing other countries readiness states, but said incident don't at least follow their typical habits in Finland's airspace. Of course we don't have full picture of incident from either side so there may have been other factors in play that caused that incident and even this current one. 

[Drowsy Emperor]

Pilot claims there was no warning and that he wasn't in violation of turkish airspace. That is neither here nor there but his comment that the F16 is so much faster it could have sat on his wing if it intended to warn him sounds plausible.

 

Having to escort all bomber aircraft will drain russian resources, which I presume is one of the goals of the provocation.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor