Attacks in Paris

[Darkpriest]

Apparently ISIS fighters might be among Syrian refugees. One of the attackers had a Syrian passport on his body

[Meshugger]

Apparently ISIS fighters might be among Syrian refugees. One of the attackers had a Syrian passport on his body

 

Source: https://twitter.com/ABC/status/665507051674669056

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The region may be small, but the war sure wasn't.

Your point?

 

 

 Anyway, your point is wrong. Most of the terrorists come from various muslim countries and the ideology of jihad is represented everywhere, although not equally. Besides, the muslim faith doesn't recognize nation states.

Are you sure? Because i remember hearing that more people die in US from right-wing terrorism than from Islamic one... 

 

 

First of all, there are very few muslims in USA. Second, the  USA is far away, its an efficient police state, its borders are not porous (regardless of what the anti hispanic immigration republicans might say), its surrounded by states under its political dominion and for these reasons organizing a terrorist strike of this magnitude is extremely difficult. You have to procure the weapons, explosives, organize transport and communication - anyone vaguely middle eastern or arabic doing anything of the kind there is easy to track by USA security services and sticks out like a sore thumb. 

 

France on the other hand has 5-10 % muslim population, there are parts of the country that are muslim ghettos where no one has any idea what's going on and with the recent "refugee" crisis anyone could just waltz in. What happened yesterday was not a matter of "if" but "when", and whether it will happen in other European states is also a question of "when" more than anything else.

 

Finally, right-wing terrorism is a media created blanket term used whenever anyone disgruntled and white shoots up a few people. Most of those acts don't even fall under the common definitions of terrorism and there's practically never a real organization behind them. The truth is that most far right groups are fiercely patriotic and that precludes them from taking action that would cause massive civilian casualties in their own country. "Right wing terrorism" is a media bogeyman, pre-emptive fear-mongering used to keep the current multi-culti experiment going and the parties that represent it in power (and parties like Swedish Democrats, Front Nationale etc. down).

[Drowsy Emperor]

Apparently ISIS fighters might be among Syrian refugees. One of the attackers had a Syrian passport on his body

 

Does that even need to be proven at this point? Its not like there's a central register of ISIS fighters. All they have to do is change clothes, rip up their passport and stand in line to get asylum. To think they wouldn't use stupid, self-destructive European policies for an easy way to get wherever they want to go is beyond naive.

[Mamoulian War]

Apparently ISIS fighters might be among Syrian refugees. One of the attackers had a Syrian passport on his body

 

Well, do you know how many Syrian passports have been "liberated" Mafia, which organizes on Balkan the illegal movement of refugees?

 

Getting your hands on Syrian Passport is in this day as easy as getting your hands on cookies...

[Drowsy Emperor]

Also, the west did turn Syria from a functioning state into a ruin. How surprising is it exactly that some Syrians would like to see USA, France or UK punished for it, even if it cost them their lives? 

 

And can you blame them? Death toll of the Syrian civil war is now around 220 000 people. 

 

Lets not forget that this whole agony started because the US wanted to depose Syria's legitimate government. If it didn't, we wouldn't be here today, wondering if some ISIS prick is going to blow us up while we're picking out potatoes in the supermarket.

[Ineth]

Well, looks like you never visited Indonesia, Malaysia or Maldives. Visiting these countries, would tell you much more about how Islam really is, compared to Fox News...

 

The Maldives, where the level of persecution against the Christian minority is rated¹ "Extreme" - at rank #11 among all countries of the world, before Saudi Arabia?

 

As for Malaysia, it ranks "only" #37 on that watchlist, but my own visit there a few years ago gave me the impression of a repressive society where Islam is not just the majority religion of the population, but de-facto the state religion - being unapologetically and unfairly backed by government bureaucracy, law enforcement, and legal system.

Christian churches seemed to be tolerated as long as they sticked to themselves, but lived in fear of random police raids against their congregations for allegations like "subverting Islam" or "encouraging apostacy from Islam".

Atheist/agnostic groups consisting of ethnic Malays (rather than foreigners) did not seem to be present at all in the public sphere, though likely existed in secret. Foreigners seemed to have more leeway, but ethnic Malays from Muslim families seemed to have little choice but to officially stay "Muslim", because apostasy meant having to live with severe discrimination and acts of retaliation from any neighbors, employers, public servants, police officers, judges, etc. they'd come in contact with for the rest of their lives.

 

Some of the conversations with people there, even casual ones, left me with newfound appreciation for the level of religious freedom and freedom of speech that exists in the West.

Of course it's possible that the people I met and information I absorbed, was unrepresentative or I misinterpreted it etc., and of course my visit to the country lasted only three weeks.

But hey, you said we should base our opinion of the tolerance of Muslim societies on our own visits rather than Fox News, so here you go...

 

--------

1) By Open Doors, the most well-known NGO for cataloging global religious persecution of Christians. Themselves a Christian organization, but I consider it reliable.

[Mamoulian War]

Well, to bad no one ever made a list of persecution against Muslim minority... I bet some of the "free western countries" would be on that list on top ranks as well...

 

My note was more alongside, that not every muslim is retarded **** running around with Kalashnikov and bomb belts as many of the "civilized westerners" love to point out.

 

All countries have their own culture, and we have to accept it. How would you like, if someone would be so powerful, that he decided to bring their political view to your country and change your government with bombs?

[Oerwinde]

 

 

Well, looks like you never visited Indonesia, Malaysia or Maldives. Visiting these countries, would tell you much more about how Islam really is, compared to Fox News...

The Maldives, where the level of persecution against the Christian minority is rated¹ "Extreme" - at rank #11 among all countries of the world, before Saudi Arabia?

 

As for Malaysia, it ranks "only" #37 on that watchlist, but my own visit there a few years ago gave me the impression of a repressive society where Islam is not just the majority religion of the population, but de-facto the state religion - being unapologetically and unfairly backed by government bureaucracy, law enforcement, and legal system.

Christian churches seemed to be tolerated as long as they sticked to themselves, but lived in fear of random police raids against their congregations for allegations like "subverting Islam" or "encouraging apostacy from Islam".

Atheist/agnostic groups consisting of ethnic Malays (rather than foreigners) did not seem to be present at all in the public sphere, though likely existed in secret. Foreigners seemed to have more leeway, but ethnic Malays from Muslim families seemed to have little choice but to officially stay "Muslim", because apostasy meant having to live with severe discrimination and acts of retaliation from any neighbors, employers, public servants, police officers, judges, etc. they'd come in contact with for the rest of their lives.

 

Some of the conversations with people there, even casual ones, left me with newfound appreciation for the level of religious freedom and freedom of speech that exists in the West.

Of course it's possible that the people I met and information I absorbed, was unrepresentative or I misinterpreted it etc., and of course my visit to the country lasted only three weeks.

But hey, you said we should base our opinion of the tolerance of Muslim societies on our own visits rather than Fox News, so here you go...

 

--------

1) By Open Doors, the most well-known NGO for cataloging global religious persecution of Christians. Themselves a Christian organization, but I consider it reliable.

Was it Indonesia or Malaysia that banned christians from using the word Allah? Christianity came there after islam so that was just the word they used for "god", and the courts declared it illegal for christians to use the word as it was a muslim word.

[Mamoulian War]

Well, in United States you can not freely say Happy Christmas in the open, someone might sue you. It's Happy Holidays for everyone...

 

Also my country has banned the use of foreign languages in some cases, which was thankfully removed... For example if you could talk Slovak and any other language, and ended up in hospital, you were not allowed to talk in that other language with the stuff even if the staff was talking that language. You had to talk Slovak, because hospitals are public places and you were allowed to engage the staff only in official language. Thankfully most of the people dumped on this law...

 

Some countries have ridiculous laws, you can't do anything about that...

Edited November 14, 2015 by Mamoulian War

[Malcador]

Getting involved in these Arabs' civil wars is turning out to make things messier than before.

[Mamoulian War]

Who cares, there are money to be made on oil and guns.

 

/sarcasm off

[Meshugger]

One of the terrorists was registered as a refugee at Lesbos in october: https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289

[Leferd]

It's all calculated; the masterminds know what they're doing. They want to make life tougher in the west for mainstream and moderate muslims. Syrian passport? Play on the worst fears towards the refugees by casting doubt and xenophobia towards the refugees.

 

In the east, they want to destabilize secularism in Muslim majority countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon, etc.

 

The propaganda machine is working. Make it a black and white world of Islam versus Crusaders and eliminate all shades of gray. Even better for them that the west casts Sunnis and Shiites together if they can get them to fight their enemies as well.

 

And we're all trending to buy it hook, line, and sinker.

[Ineth]

Well, to bad no one ever made a list of persecution against Muslim minority... I bet some of the "free western countries" would be on that list on top ranks as well...

 

Really, your first response is to wildly equivocate?

 

Which Western country has persecution against Muslims that comes anywhere close to the same ballpark as the persecution against the local Christian minorities in the countries at the top of the Open Doors watch-list?

 

Could you imagine a Sweden or Australia where, when you're discovered to have expressed disbelief in Christianity or that you own a holy book other than the Bible, you are publicly beaten while the police watch, or loose your Citizenship and are thrown out of the country, or disappear into a torture prison?

 

If a watch-list of countries with religious persecution against Muslims was made by the same standards as that Open Doors list, then:

• The top spots would all be filled with Sunni countries persecuting Shiites and the other way around.
• Countries like North Korea and China which are hostile to all religions, would of course also make the list.
• So might Burma, Srilanka and Thailand, due to pogroms and government-sanctioned human rights abuses.

Western countries would at best get an honorable mention, for isolated incidents of anti-Muslim violence by radicals which are however universally condemned within those societies and efficiently prosecuted by the authorities. (And Switzerland would get a minor mention for its ban on building minarets on top of mosques.)

 

 

All countries have their own culture, and we have to accept it.

 

Yes, so goes the mantra of cultural relativism.

 

I for one believe in universal human rights. Every human being deserves freedom of conscious/religion and freedom of speech.

 

Was it Indonesia or Malaysia that banned christians from using the word Allah? Christianity came there after islam so that was just the word they used for "god", and the courts declared it illegal for christians to use the word as it was a muslim word.

 

Yeah that was Malaysia I think.

 

Indonesia is a little more complicated - while Islamic-motivated persecution of religious minorities definitely exists there, and sometimes even in very severe forms, it is AFAIK much more localized to certain areas of the country, and not backed by national government institutions.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Ineth

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Obola on ISIS: "We Have Contained Them" just today. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/11/13/obama_on_isis_we_have_contained_them.html

 

This is the result of ending terrorist interrogations, restricting surveillance, and open borders.

Well, despite that assertion being a bit comic, ISIS being contained and all (then again that's a decent weasel word). Not sure that ending torture really hurt the cause, not did limiting surveillance. Price of a free country is being open to this kind of attack and all.

 

No, it's the price of stupidity. And Obola not only ended "torture" (which Bush already stopped for the most part, it was only used initially in a few cases), he stopped virtually all interrogation.

 

On another subject, our borders are porous. If they weren't, deported criminals wouldn't be able to return 5,6,7 times. The reason we hadn't had a cross-border terrorist attack is the drug cartels won't allow it, they don't want the border to be closed.

 

It's very amusing how some here try to deny that radical Islam is responsible for the attacks.

[Leferd]

 

Was it Indonesia or Malaysia that banned christians from using the word Allah? Christianity came there after islam so that was just the word they used for "god", and the courts declared it illegal for christians to use the word as it was a muslim word.

 

Yeah that was Malaysia I think.

 

Indonesia is a little more complicated - while Islamic-motivated persecution of religious minorities definitely exists there, and sometimes even in very severe forms, it is AFAIK much more localized to certain areas of the country, and not backed by national government institutions.

 

 

Accurate.

[Ineth]

And german example is very much relevant. Sure, religion wasn't the main part of their ideology, but then again where do you think hatred of jews came from exactly? Christianity, of course.

 

Depends on your definition of "came from".

 

The medieval Christian church cultivated the first tradition of large-scale Jew hatred, but that does not mean that there's a causal link from it to every later tradition of Jew hatred.

The Islamic world, for example, (re-)discovered it all on their own.

 

In both cases (Christianity and Islam) it seems to have emerged in a similar fashion: Both of those religions tried to initially latch on to Judaism and "extend" / "complete" / "replace" it, but the Jews had no interest in them and kept doing their own thing - which left the followers of those "new" religions vindictive.

 

The Nazi's hatred of Jews, was a different beast though. The religion-based medieval Jew hatred had started to slowly die down in Western Europe ever since the Age of Enlightenment, and wasn't an active threat anymore by the 20th century.

 

However, during the second half of the 19th century, a new form of antisemitism had arisen: One that despised Jews as an ethnicity or social group, rather than a religion. The inventors of this new Jew hatred, and btw. also the ones who introduced the term "antisemitic" (meant as a joking euphemism), were the Socialists of that time.

Due to historical reasons reaching back to Medieval laws, Jews were disproportionately represented among bankers and similar professions in Europe, so for propaganda purposes the Socialists chose to portray Jews as the "face" of their boogeyman Capitalism.

In history class you've likely seen some nasty Nazi propaganda posters of the "dirty big-nosed Jew grabbing bags of money" type. The Nazis did not invent them, they plagiarized them from almost-identically looking Socialist propaganda posters of prior decades. Remember that the Nazi party literally emerged from the fringe Socialist milieu - it did not get its name by mistake.

 

Obviously, the fact the traditional Christian type of Jew hatred was still lingering dormant among the population, made things easier for the Nazis.

But to claim that antisemitism in its National Socialist (and Islamist) manifestation "came from" Christianity, is a little too simplistic.

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

Obola on ISIS: "We Have Contained Them" just today. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/11/13/obama_on_isis_we_have_contained_them.html

 

This is the result of ending terrorist interrogations, restricting surveillance, and open borders.

Well, despite that assertion being a bit comic, ISIS being contained and all (then again that's a decent weasel word). Not sure that ending torture really hurt the cause, not did limiting surveillance. Price of a free country is being open to this kind of attack and all.

 

No, it's the price of stupidity. And Obola not only ended "torture" (which Bush already stopped for the most part, it was only used initially in a few cases), he stopped virtually all interrogation.

 

On another subject, our borders are porous. If they weren't, deported criminals wouldn't be able to return 5,6,7 times. The reason we hadn't had a cross-border terrorist attack is the drug cartels won't allow it, they don't want the border to be closed.

 

It's very amusing how some here try to deny that radical Islam is responsible for the attacks.

 

 

No one is denying that radical moslems are responsible. People are just saying that not all of the moslems are radicals.

 

I do not know if your media already mentioned it, but the attacks were executed in places, where many foreign nationalities live alongside French people without having any issues.

 

I would say, this was one of the reasons behind the attack, hoping that the people living there start to hate each other...

[Leferd]

 

 

 

Obola on ISIS: "We Have Contained Them" just today. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/11/13/obama_on_isis_we_have_contained_them.html

 

This is the result of ending terrorist interrogations, restricting surveillance, and open borders.

Well, despite that assertion being a bit comic, ISIS being contained and all (then again that's a decent weasel word). Not sure that ending torture really hurt the cause, not did limiting surveillance. Price of a free country is being open to this kind of attack and all.

 

No, it's the price of stupidity. And Obola not only ended "torture" (which Bush already stopped for the most part, it was only used initially in a few cases), he stopped virtually all interrogation.

 

On another subject, our borders are porous. If they weren't, deported criminals wouldn't be able to return 5,6,7 times. The reason we hadn't had a cross-border terrorist attack is the drug cartels won't allow it, they don't want the border to be closed.

 

It's very amusing how some here try to deny that radical Islam is responsible for the attacks.

 

 

No one is denying that radical moslems are responsible. People are just saying that not all of the moslems are radicals.

 

I do not know if your media already mentioned it, but the attacks were executed in places, where many foreign nationalities live alongside French people without having any issues.

 

I would say, this was one of the reasons behind the attack, hoping that the people living there start to hate each other...

 

 

Accurate.

[Ineth]

It's very amusing how some here try to deny that radical Islam is responsible for the attacks.

 

Assigning "responsibility" for an action not to the human actors but to an abstract concept, is IMO too polemical and does not help clarity.

 

It's undeniable that radical Islam (as a worldview/tradition with millions¹ of followers) is very relevant to these terror acts and to understanding/preventing them, and the "Nothing to do with Islam because [No True Scotsman]!!" knee-jerk response from the political left just seems trite at this point.

 

But lets not use that as an excuse to get carried away. Responsibility lies with the individuals who planned and carried out the attack.

 

---

¹⁾ Note that I did not say "billion".

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

 

 

Obola on ISIS: "We Have Contained Them" just today. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/11/13/obama_on_isis_we_have_contained_them.html

 

This is the result of ending terrorist interrogations, restricting surveillance, and open borders.

Well, despite that assertion being a bit comic, ISIS being contained and all (then again that's a decent weasel word). Not sure that ending torture really hurt the cause, not did limiting surveillance. Price of a free country is being open to this kind of attack and all.

 

No, it's the price of stupidity. And Obola not only ended "torture" (which Bush already stopped for the most part, it was only used initially in a few cases), he stopped virtually all interrogation.

 

On another subject, our borders are porous. If they weren't, deported criminals wouldn't be able to return 5,6,7 times. The reason we hadn't had a cross-border terrorist attack is the drug cartels won't allow it, they don't want the border to be closed.

 

It's very amusing how some here try to deny that radical Islam is responsible for the attacks.

 

 

No one is denying that radical moslems are responsible. People are just saying that not all of the moslems are radicals.

 

I do not know if your media already mentioned it, but the attacks were executed in places, where many foreign nationalities live alongside French people without having any issues.

 

I would say, this was one of the reasons behind the attack, hoping that the people living there start to hate each other...

 

Zoraptor specifically said only those who carried out the attack are responsible for it, and others seem to be concurring. Most people aren't claiming that all Muslims are responsible either.

 

But lets not use that as an excuse to get carried away. Responsibility lies with the individuals who planned and carried out the attack.

That's like saying the SS soldiers who carried out a particular atrocity are solely responsible, not the whole nazi state. Edited November 14, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

Obola on ISIS: "We Have Contained Them" just today. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/11/13/obama_on_isis_we_have_contained_them.html

 

This is the result of ending terrorist interrogations, restricting surveillance, and open borders.

Well, despite that assertion being a bit comic, ISIS being contained and all (then again that's a decent weasel word). Not sure that ending torture really hurt the cause, not did limiting surveillance. Price of a free country is being open to this kind of attack and all.

 

No, it's the price of stupidity. And Obola not only ended "torture" (which Bush already stopped for the most part, it was only used initially in a few cases), he stopped virtually all interrogation.

 

On another subject, our borders are porous. If they weren't, deported criminals wouldn't be able to return 5,6,7 times. The reason we hadn't had a cross-border terrorist attack is the drug cartels won't allow it, they don't want the border to be closed.

 

It's very amusing how some here try to deny that radical Islam is responsible for the attacks.

 

 

No one is denying that radical moslems are responsible. People are just saying that not all of the moslems are radicals.

 

I do not know if your media already mentioned it, but the attacks were executed in places, where many foreign nationalities live alongside French people without having any issues.

 

I would say, this was one of the reasons behind the attack, hoping that the people living there start to hate each other...

 

 

I believe that, it doesnt change fact that they were fundamental muslims. And europe open doors policy started by Merkel will cause backlash on those innocent musilms (althrough most 'refuges' in EU are still criminals by fact that they break at least one law to get into it)

[Guard Dog]

It's all calculated; the masterminds know what they're doing. They want to make life tougher in the west for mainstream and moderate muslims. Syrian passport? Play on the worst fears towards the refugees by casting doubt and xenophobia towards the refugees.

 

In the east, they want to destabilize secularism in Muslim majority countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon, etc.

 

The propaganda machine is working. Make it a black and white world of Islam versus Crusaders and eliminate all shades of gray. Even better for them that the west casts Sunnis and Shiites together if they can get them to fight their enemies as well.

 

And we're all trending to buy it hook, line, and sinker.

I agree with you. But this would not be such a hard sell if outcry against the radical BS by the "non-violent" Muslims wasn't so muted when it isn't non existent.

[Leferd]

 

It's all calculated; the masterminds know what they're doing. They want to make life tougher in the west for mainstream and moderate muslims. Syrian passport? Play on the worst fears towards the refugees by casting doubt and xenophobia towards the refugees.

 

In the east, they want to destabilize secularism in Muslim majority countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Lebanon, etc.

 

The propaganda machine is working. Make it a black and white world of Islam versus Crusaders and eliminate all shades of gray. Even better for them that the west casts Sunnis and Shiites together if they can get them to fight their enemies as well.

 

And we're all trending to buy it hook, line, and sinker.

I agree with you. But this would not be such a hard sell if outcry against the radical BS by the "non-violent" Muslims wasn't so muted when it isn't non existent.

 

 

Generally speaking, most people in any situation tend to stay silent. They just want to go about living their lives and not  have to stick their neck out for nothing or nobody no matter their personal convictions. It's already a hot topic issue, why fan flames? There's enough backward nutjobs even in liberal California who'll soon enough cause hell, or worst if they identify you as being muslim.