Attacks in Paris

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

as an aside, malaysia still has f/a EIGHTEEN hornets in its air force, and has had such for many years.  those hornets were not sold as empty shells.  they has been continually upgraded via a contract with boeing. as recently as may o' 2015, malaysia was buying AIM-120 AMRAAM from the US in an effort to maintain their hornets.

 

recently, malaysia were OFFERED f/a 18 e/f super hornets, but malaysia decided to choose russian alternatives.

 

what sorta nonsense is malaysia media spinning, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Like i said, America never give a fair deal, but that doesn't mean we no longer have dealings with USA...Presiden Obama just visited Malaysia you know...he come with a treaty, another unfair deal...the TTPA...

 

It is a convenient the president visit us after the incident of MH370 and MH17............we know your game........

 

calling bs.  if deal were so bad, then why were f/a 18 e/f a finalist along with grippen and russian su 30 mkms in malaysia's recent attempt to upgrade air force?  malaysia continued to get hornet support from boeing and the us dod in the form o' continued training hardware upgrades. you are being fed bs from your media and naive if you think that the us provided empty hornet shells to malaysia over a decade ago and that malaysia has continued to cooperate with us to upgrade, maintain, and train pilots for those hornets... as well as making new hornets a finalist for their recent fighter aircraft upgrade.

 

nonsense.

 

all o' which is so utterly irrelevant to what is going on in paris and the middle east and africa.

 

aside, we agree with bruce and others that focus on paris is unfortunate but understandable.  we personal were annoyed when the charlie hebdo stuff were occupying headlines when at similar time an entire town in northern nigeria were razed by boko haram.  we complained 'bout the lack o' sympathy for the folks o' baga on these boards (http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66161-boko-haram-and-the-kidnpping-of-the-school-girls/?p=1556307) nigeria claims that 150 people  were killed and and thousands displaced (as opposed to the estimates o' anywhere from 1000 to 2000 fatalities from more objective sources). baga shoulda' garnered more attention.  unfortunately, news o' violence in the middle east and africa is so common that it westerners rare pay attention to such stuff.  have a story that only 150 people died in africa and middle east in 2015 due to sectarian violence and THAT would be a story. is terrible, but we expect violence and bloodshed in the middle east.  is not news if is ordinary?  maybe.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Gromnir why do feel the need to debate  like this with Qistina ?

 

You can't really feel the need to win this debate and it should be obvious that there is a language translation problem and lack of overall insight on certain matters,,,,this is not Zora you are debating with, with him you always have to win 

 

well, we had stopped... then we saw the antichrist stuff.

 

*eye roll*

 

spew that kinda nonsense and then claim that western media is giving distorted view o' malaysia's islamic state?

 

were funny... and wrong.

 

as an aside,  we prefer our antichrist riding a trike

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg9-axPBw1g

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

Apparently this whole mess empowered Putin.

 

Already during the Obama Putin meeting Americans moved forward towards joint operation in Syria, which means including Asad in the process, it also forced EU to co-operative stance with Russians (Sarkozy in France voicing this, but most importantly chief of EU Foreign relations Ms. Federica Mogherini), so we might soon see embargo being removed and Ukraine Eastern part being traded in the process for joint security operations around middle east.

 

Assad was always going to be included once Russia intervened, the recent significant victories on the ground and accelerated defections from the small remaining actual moderate opposition has just ensured that people are talking about it now, rather than next year. The US wasn't really annoyed about Russia intervening per se since their favoured proxies were almost exclusively outright embarrassments already- it's all about dialling back the expectations and making their policy not look like a hapless clusterasterisk at this point while trying to make sure Russia gets no credit. Russian intervention was the no-clothes-on-emperor moment for western Syrian policy and the US wanted time to at least get a posing pouch on before the illusion went.

 

OTOH the Russian intervention sent the Gulf and Turkey into a splenetic rage since they've committed far more than the US both in rhetoric and in practicality.

 

Realistically sanctions would last until the west needed Russia again, and that's that. Ukraine simply ain't important enough to anyone in Europe except Poland/ Balts and opportune jingoists like Cameron/ Hammond. They're important enough to get a response, but not important enough to maintain it.

 

 

Oh yeah, let's turn the whole west into the incarnation of 1984. I think Jefferson would be proud now...

 

This kind of hyperbole will be paid for in blood, though probably no terrorist would bother with Slovakia. I'm guessing you've never lived under communism.

 

 

He said he lived under communism. Not sure how you could have missed it.

 

Really though, it's deeply ironic that someone who uses 'Obola' unironically wants Obola's NSA mates to have free reign to sniff his undies in order to protect him from terrorists. Pretty sure Jefferson had something relevant to say there. Hint: a Russian has quoted it to you...

Edited November 15, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Gromnir]

the US fears 'bout russian involvement in syria were that russia would get credit?  you kidder. 

 

zor never changes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Meshugger]

 

 

Either i have must've stricken a nerve or you are being deliberately daft.

Lol. No, it's just that i don't equate people who practice Islam with "islamists". http://pressa.today/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Miting_musulman_v_Moskve_25_janvarja.jpg This is what happenes every year in Moscow, and yet somehow the city is still standing.

 

 

For the last time, i am talking about the idea by the eurocrats placing (not temporal refuge, not just some political dissidents or queers) millions of middle eastern islamists in Europe and then claim that they are essential to european identity. Because taking it to its logical end you can replace the whole population of Japan with Nigeria and claim that they are now essential to the Japanese identity.

[BruceVC]

the US fears 'bout russian involvement in syria were that russia would get credit?  you kidder. 

 

zor never changes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Yeah, it amazes me because Zora makes these points that people seem to agree with and  part of what he sometimes says I agree with but then he makes these  anti-Western comments that just seem incongruous  " the West is just using Russia " or " Syria is about who gains credit " 

 

And I realize his view of the West actually blinds him to some obvious realities 

 

 

No offense Zora but you do tend to do this and it makes your entire perspective questionable  if you have a debate with someone who is informed but is trying to be objective 

 

I just wish you would share with me where you born and your upbringing, I promise it won't change my view of you 

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

He revealed all of our most secret methods and assets, not just Twitter and Facebook. He's done immeasurable harm to the West's security.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. One of your founding fathers said that, i believe?

 

Wtf do you know about essential liberty?

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, let's turn the whole west into the incarnation of 1984. I think Jefferson would be proud now...

This kind of hyperbole will be paid for in blood, though probably no terrorist would bother with Slovakia. I'm guessing you've never lived under communism.

 

 

He said he lived under communism. Not sure how you could have missed it.

 

Really though, it's deeply ironic that someone who uses 'Obola' unironically wants Obola's NSA mates to have free reign to sniff his undies in order to protect him from terrorists. Pretty sure Jefferson had something relevant to say there. Hint: a Russian has quoted it to you...

 

He said his family was under the Soviet Union, if he said something else, I missed it.

 

IRS already knows everything there is to know about me, what would Obola do to me if he did read my e-mails? Which has always been illegal btw. Also I assume e-mails aren't secure, so I'd never send any compromising info anyway. We have much more to fear from cyber criminals and terrorists than even from a lawless president like Obola.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Wrath of Dagon

[Meshugger]

Just read the rest of the thread. Sweet lord, Qistina's stuff is beyond /pol/-territory and that's quite telling. Tell me, do you happen to browse this place? http://8ch.net/fringe/catalog.html

 

EDIT//: What happened to the two suspected terrorists still being at large around Paris? I can't find anything.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Meshugger

[Sakai]

Wtf do you know about essential liberty?

I know more than you apparently, if you want the government to spy on everybody.

 

 

 

For the last time, i am talking about the idea by the eurocrats placing (not temporal refuge, not just some political dissidents or queers) millions of middle eastern islamists in Europe and then claim that they are essential to european identity. Because taking it to its logical end you can replace the whole population of Japan with Nigeria and claim that they are now essential to the Japanese identity.

 

Can you explain what exactly do you mean by "islamists"? 

Edited November 15, 2015 by Sakai

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Wtf do you know about essential liberty?

I know more than you apparently, if you want the government to spy on everybody.

 

Has anyone ever explained "straw man argument" to you?

[Sakai]

Has anyone ever explained "straw man argument" to you?

That's what US government was doing, wasn't it? And you're upset that Snowden exposed it. Please correct me if i missed something.

[Darkpriest]

a fairly fast response from France airforce. In co-ordination with USAF 10 planes attacked Rakka, training centers, possibly command posts and munitions stocks and other positions - dropping in total 20 bombs.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Has anyone ever explained "straw man argument" to you?

That's what US government was doing, wasn't it? And you're upset that Snowden exposed it. Please correct me if i missed something.

 

What the US government was doing was looking for any pattern of communication between known terrorist groups, individuals and supporters of terrorism. They were not "spying on everybody" despite what Putin, Assange and the free Russian press might be telling you.

[Zoraptor]

the US fears 'bout russian involvement in syria were that russia would get credit?  you kidder. 

 

zor never changes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

And sadly neither does Grommy. Still getting an E for reading comprehension I see. Though in this case it is probably deliberate malice rather than mere foolishness and your imagination writing cheques reality won't cash.

 

The US wasn't really annoyed about Russia intervening per se since their favoured proxies were almost exclusively outright embarrassments already (1)- it's all about dialling back the expectations (2) and making their policy not look like a hapless clusterasterisk (3) at this point while trying to make sure Russia gets no credit (4). Russian intervention was the no-clothes-on-emperor moment for western Syrian policy and the US wanted time to at least get a posing pouch on before the illusion went.

 

 

As you can see, one main point (1) and three subsidiaries from that first point of which being embarrassed by Russia is one. If you don't think that's a factor then fair dos, but you're wrong.

 

Now, since some may actually gain from the illustration... Even prior to the intervention the US had dialled back on the rhetoric and were saying that Assad could stay in a transitional role, they were already setting the scene for their policy change, the US trained rebels (Division 30) had already handed weapons over to Al Nusra and been disbanded, and the sole passably moderate major rebel group in the Southern Front had already failed in their big offensive. The US simply could not be peeved about losing their influence over Syria to Russia, the alternative thing they might be annoyed about, as they didn't have any influence to lose. From a geopolitical perspective all the intervention did was reinforce/ illustrate the already existing facts on the ground that the US had no meaningful influence and their policy had been a litany of half baked mutually contradictory failures such as kind of backing the Kurds in Syria, but not enough to offend Turkey- and with the big proviso that the Kurds are mainly interested in Kurdish areas, not marching on Raqqa or Damascus. Meanwhile, regional US allies were blithely supporting the big players in the rebels, Al Nusra/ Ahrar ash Sham/ Army of Islam etc much as they had blithely supported proto ISIS earlier, and none of those groups are even remotely pro US and cannot be spun as pro US, and the US knows that.

 

Simply put, the US can only be genuinely annoyed at the embarrassment of Russian intervention because they had no influence remaining to lose.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

 

 

Has anyone ever explained "straw man argument" to you?

That's what US government was doing, wasn't it? And you're upset that Snowden exposed it. Please correct me if i missed something.

 

What the US government was doing was looking for any pattern of communication between known terrorist groups, individuals and supporters of terrorism. They were not "spying on everybody" despite what Putin, Assange and the free Russian press might be telling you.

 

Yes this is 100% correct, the real damage seems to be from Americans and people on these forums like KP who feel there government betrayed them 

[Darkpriest]

Some footage from the time of attack in the article:

 

http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-video-gunman-outside-bataclan-165558053.html

 

looks like first response team, and they probably were in a bit of a shock on the arrival

Edited November 15, 2015 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

as an aside, malaysia still has f/a EIGHTEEN hornets in its air force, and has had such for many years.  those hornets were not sold as empty shells.  they has been continually upgraded via a contract with boeing. as recently as may o' 2015, malaysia was buying AIM-120 AMRAAM from the US in an effort to maintain their hornets.

 

recently, malaysia were OFFERED f/a 18 e/f super hornets, but malaysia decided to choose russian alternatives.

 

what sorta nonsense is malaysia media spinning, eh?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Like i said, America never give a fair deal, but that doesn't mean we no longer have dealings with USA...Presiden Obama just visited Malaysia you know...he come with a treaty, another unfair deal...the TTPA...

 

It is a convenient the president visit us after the incident of MH370 and MH17............we know your game........

 

calling bs.  if deal were so bad, then why were f/a 18 e/f a finalist along with grippen and russian su 30 mkms in malaysia's recent attempt to upgrade air force?  malaysia continued to get hornet support from boeing and the us dod in the form o' continued training hardware upgrades. you are being fed bs from your media and naive if you think that the us provided empty hornet shells to malaysia over a decade ago and that malaysia has continued to cooperate with us to upgrade, maintain, and train pilots for those hornets... as well as making new hornets a finalist for their recent fighter aircraft upgrade.

 

nonsense.

 

all o' which is so utterly irrelevant to what is going on in paris and the middle east and africa.

 

aside, we agree with bruce and others that focus on paris is unfortunate but understandable.  we personal were annoyed when the charlie hebdo stuff were occupying headlines when at similar time an entire town in northern nigeria were razed by boko haram.  we complained 'bout the lack o' sympathy for the folks o' baga on these boards (http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66161-boko-haram-and-the-kidnpping-of-the-school-girls/?p=1556307) nigeria claims that 150 people  were killed and and thousands displaced (as opposed to the estimates o' anywhere from 1000 to 2000 fatalities from more objective sources). baga shoulda' garnered more attention.  unfortunately, news o' violence in the middle east and africa is so common that it westerners rare pay attention to such stuff.  have a story that only 150 people died in africa and middle east in 2015 due to sectarian violence and THAT would be a story. is terrible, but we expect violence and bloodshed in the middle east.  is not news if is ordinary?  maybe.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Gromnir why do feel the need to debate  like this with Qistina ?

 

You can't really feel the need to win this debate and it should be obvious that there is a language translation problem and lack of overall insight on certain matters,,,,this is not Zora you are debating with, with him you always have to win 

 

well, we had stopped... then we saw the antichrist stuff.

 

*eye roll*

 

spew that kinda nonsense and then claim that western media is giving distorted view o' malaysia's islamic state?

 

were funny... and wrong.

 

as an aside,  we prefer our antichrist riding a trike

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg9-axPBw1g

 

HA! Good Fun!

Y

Yeah I hear you, its not just you but everyone on this thread seems very keen to challenge Qistina because of her views on certain topics

 

But I just think  " why " , end of the day we all know that sometimes our views are shaped by circumstances and you won't change that so for me its just seems pointless  

[Gromnir]

"it's all about dialling back the expectations and making their policy not look like a hapless clusterasterisk at this point while trying to make sure Russia gets no credit."

 

oh, zor.  have been down this road with you many times. never change.

 

as for responding to qistina, am thinking the board response is expected.  we don't have a fundamentalist muslim pov on this board save for qistina.  she expresses consternation that her nation and religion is being unfairly vilified, then she posts and seems to validate all those western misconceptions.  most o' us is baffled/concerned by the dogma we tend to hear from muslim sources, but we almost never hear from ordinary folks living in malaysia or iran or wherever save for comments sections of various news sites... and how much can we rely on such contributions?  so, when qistina posts 'bout how much malaysia protects religious rights o' non muslims (*snicker*) or when she speaks o' the antichrist, she seems to reaffirm many o' the preconceptions folks have 'bout FOREIGN followers o' islam.  

 

how many of us just don't understand the religious radical or fundamentalist pov?  Gromnir has been on panels with muslim academics.  we has, 'cause o' our job, frequent discussed issues o' free speech and religion with american muslims. but teh rheal muslims living in nations such as malaysia?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 15, 2015 by Gromnir

[Sakai]

What the US government was doing was looking for any pattern of communication between known terrorist groups, individuals and supporters of terrorism. They were not "spying on everybody" despite what Putin, Assange and the free Russian press might be telling you.

They were looking for patterns by collecting the data from millions of people they had no right to collect. And there's no telling how that data could've been misused. Just because they don't actually listen to every single phone call doesn't mean it makes it any better. So yes, they were spying. And sorry to disappoint, but i learned about this from american media, not russian. And i don't care what Putin says. 

Edited November 15, 2015 by Sakai

[Mamoulian War]

 

Wtf do you know about essential liberty?

 

 

He said his family was under the Soviet Union, if he said something else, I missed it.

 

IRS already knows everything there is to know about me, what would Obola do to me if he did read my e-mails? Which has always been illegal btw. Also I assume e-mails aren't secure, so I'd never send any compromising info anyway. We have much more to fear from cyber criminals and terrorists than even from a lawless president like Obola.

 

 

I said, that I am old enough to remember very good life under communism. And heard a lot of stories from my family, after they were finally able to talk because StB (ex- Czechoslovak CIA/KGB) stopped to spy on everyone. Your politicians are now advocating something, what was part of everyday life in my and in other communist countries. Your politicians had chance to take the lesson about what was done wrong in the East Europe, but for whatever reason, they are committed to repeat the same mistakes, like we did...

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

What the US government was doing was looking for any pattern of communication between known terrorist groups, individuals and supporters of terrorism. They were not "spying on everybody" despite what Putin, Assange and the free Russian press might be telling you.

They were looking for patterns by collecting the data from millions of people they had no right to collect. And there's no telling how that data could've been misused. Just because they don't actually listen to every single phone call doesn't mean it makes it any better. So yes, they were spying. And sorry to disappoint, but i learned about this from american media, not russian. And i don't care what Putin says.

 

"They had no right" You're an expert on American law now? And why doesn't it make it better if they don't actually listen to phone calls? I'd say it's a lot better and you don't know what you're talking about. Putin can do anything to you and no one would lift a finger, and you're criticizing us? Btw, American media is almost as anti-American as Putin.

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

Has anyone ever explained "straw man argument" to you?

That's what US government was doing, wasn't it? And you're upset that Snowden exposed it. Please correct me if i missed something.

 

What the US government was doing was looking for any pattern of communication between known terrorist groups, individuals and supporters of terrorism. They were not "spying on everybody" despite what Putin, Assange and the free Russian press might be telling you.

 

Yes this is 100% correct, the real damage seems to be from Americans and people on these forums like KP who feel there government betrayed them 

 

 

Well even Europalament MPs thinks that Snowden did the right thing...

 

http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2015/10/european-parliament-votes-to-shield-snowden-from-extradition-to-us/

[Wrath of Dagon]

I said, that I am old enough to remember very good life under communism. And heard a lot of stories from my family, after they were finally able to talk because StB (ex- Czechoslovak CIA/KGB) stopped to spy on everyone. Your politicians are now advocating something, what was part of everyday life in my and in other communist countries. Your politicians had chance to take the lesson about what was done wrong in the East Europe, but for whatever reason, they are committed to repeat the same mistakes, like we did...

Life was very good under communism? And we're advocating doing what was done under communism? I'd say you like Sakai have no idea what you're talking about. May be you should read the Gulag Archipelago or something.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Has anyone ever explained "straw man argument" to you?

That's what US government was doing, wasn't it? And you're upset that Snowden exposed it. Please correct me if i missed something.

 

What the US government was doing was looking for any pattern of communication between known terrorist groups, individuals and supporters of terrorism. They were not "spying on everybody" despite what Putin, Assange and the free Russian press might be telling you.

 

Yes this is 100% correct, the real damage seems to be from Americans and people on these forums like KP who feel there government betrayed them 

 

 

Well even Europalament MPs thinks that Snowden did the right thing...

 

http://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2015/10/european-parliament-votes-to-shield-snowden-from-extradition-to-us/

 

Yeah, that doesnt surprise me

 

The EU also makes the occasional mistake ...its not perfect 

[Mamoulian War]

@ WoD

 

You are advocating mass surveilance of your own citizens. We were experiencing that for 41 years. We know what we are talking about...

Edited November 15, 2015 by Mamoulian War

[Sakai]

"They had no right" You're an expert on American law now? And why doesn't it make it better if they don't actually listen to phone calls? I'd say it's a lot better and you don't know what you're talking about. Putin can do anything to you and no one would lift a finger, and you're criticizing us? Btw, American media is almost as anti-American as Putin.

 

I'm not, no. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/07/us-usa-security-nsa-idUSKBN0NS1IN20150507#yr6DLdSCM3mS8wWe.97 But it does seem sketchy from a legal point of view. At least in some peoples opinion.  

 

Well, sure it's better. Like it would be better if someone breaks your arm instead of chopping your head off. And i wasn't aware i had to get a license to be able to criticise something.