3.00 patch teased by Josh on SA

[Teioh_White]

It's not terrible, of course, but It's not amazing; main issue is it has to compete with the rest of Pld's support tool kit for one it's 7 talent slots. It might make my Pld's list around level 11, when I'm spinning wheels waiting for Sacred Immolation, but it's not great by itself. In general, per encounter single target damage effects have minimal impact on fights on PotD, when 6 mobs is one of the smallest encounters. Two hits of +20 Acc, +50% damage isn't super amazing, especially for a NPC Pld. It'd be a bit impressive on a Rogue PC, who could get close to a 5.0 Mod, but Pallegina will top out around 2.6 mod.

 

For refrence, Level 1 a Pld wants Lay on Hands, as it's the best heal post buff. Level 3 is Zealous. Level 5 is Liberating. Level 7 is Reviving. Level 9 is Rightous. Level 11 is a bit of a freebie, and 13 is of course, Sacred Immolation.

 

Basically, it's competing against Coordinated Attacks and Reinforcing Exhortion. I personally prefer the perma +10 acc to one of my team mates over an entire fight, rather than 2 shots of +20 acc, +50% damage. The other option is on level 7, dropping Revive, but like Lay on Hands, it's the best Rez in the game, and it's per encounter, making it a really useful tool in Pld's kit that no other class has, to give up for the minor damage increase that plenty of others do better.

[JerekKruger]

Pallegina's biggest issue is the whole, Non PC pld's miss out on 5 Def and 11 to all saves, plus the fact she starts with Flame of Devotion rather than Lay on Hands.

 

Can't you respec her and/or doesn't the option to assign her talents allow you to choose Lay on Hands instead of Flames of Devotion?

[L4wlight]

 

Pallegina's biggest issue is the whole, Non PC pld's miss out on 5 Def and 11 to all saves, plus the fact she starts with Flame of Devotion rather than Lay on Hands.

 

Can't you respec her and/or doesn't the option to assign her talents allow you to choose Lay on Hands instead of Flames of Devotion?

This. If she'd have bad attributes, that would have been much worse! If this whole Faith and Conviction non PC thing bothers you that much, you could always use IE mod for that.

 

But its really not that big of an issue - she is really sturdy enough and the lack of order talents doesn't matter either. For whats its worth, I tend to not use FoD with her too, but its a really good ability if you need to get the killing blows for the passives. But I usually just switch on her for LoH and Exhortations, so I don't like Inspiring Triumph much here. If you place her in the middle of the frontline she can cover all melees with an Zealous aura. She has slightly higher RES and INT than I'd use on an DPS/ tank hybrid pala, so that compensates the weaker FaC bonus a bit. Her low to average might can be easly countered with a good Estoc.

 

Generelly I tend to use the story companions almost exklusively, because the hired henchmen are just liveless shells... In any case, I wish they would let the player decide whether they like to retrain the attributes of the story companions too or not. For example Durance's low DEX drives me crazy, because it's just a pain in the ass to buff with him.

Edited November 21, 2015 by L4wlight

[KDubya]

 

Pallegina's biggest issue is the whole, Non PC pld's miss out on 5 Def and 11 to all saves, plus the fact she starts with Flame of Devotion rather than Lay on Hands.

 

Can't you respec her and/or doesn't the option to assign her talents allow you to choose Lay on Hands instead of Flames of Devotion?

 

 

 

You can't change her level one pick, you will always have FoD at level one. I skip the revive as it is rare that someone gets Ko'd where I'd want them to get back up other than in a dragon fight. I find carrying a few scrolls better than using an ability for the rez.

 

Zahua has the same issue with Torment's Reach at level one. For some builds like going for two handed weapons it'd be better to skip Torment's Reach, replace with Swift Strikes and have room to take Force of Anguish.

 

Those two are the only ones who I'd like to have had the option of taking the other level one ability pick.

[anameforobsidian]

So all that is left from smaller things to improve PoE is to implement magical ammo of different kinds and to fix boring companions like the paladin and ranger chick. 

 

Then for PoE 2 remove disengagement, remove limitations on spells that can only be used in combat and create spells and abilities that also give immunities and that just being passive ability of creatures. Then we can have back cool spellcaster duels from BG2 (and BG1 with SCS mod). 

 

Magical ammo - sure.

 

Companion fixes - whatever.  Doesn't Pallegina get nice bonuses for being an Avian godlike?

 

Remove disengagement - No.  If anything, I want them to create disengagement zones rather than the status effect they use.  (They didn't change it, did they?)  Also properly implement polearms so they create huge disengagement zones.  I like the focus on positioning in PE.

 

Immunities - only when it adds to verisimilitude or characterization.  Fire Blights should not be hurt by fire.  I prefer hefty DR bonuses in most cases.  A lot of explanations get super tedious.

 

Combat only spells - needs to be carefully considered.  BGII prebuff litanies were annoying.

 

Mage duels - Hell no!  While SCS added some interesting strategies (teleport field + melf's minute meteors was novel the first time you see it), mage fights got increasingly tedious as the levels went up.  Battles took longer.  There were actually less tactics as mages took an outsized importance.  Dispel vs. contigency until a warrior inevitable drops the enemy in one hit was not terribly fun.

 

 

 

Furthermore, there's something to be said for letting PE to continue developing its own niche and ideas.  If you want another Baldur's Gate game, Beamdog will keep you supplied for decades to come.

Edited November 22, 2015 by anameforobsidian

[archangel979]

 

So all that is left from smaller things to improve PoE is to implement magical ammo of different kinds and to fix boring companions like the paladin and ranger chick. 

 

Then for PoE 2 remove disengagement, remove limitations on spells that can only be used in combat and create spells and abilities that also give immunities and that just being passive ability of creatures. Then we can have back cool spellcaster duels from BG2 (and BG1 with SCS mod). 

 

Magical ammo - sure.

 

Companion fixes - whatever.  Doesn't Pallegina get nice bonuses for being an Avian godlike?

 

Remove disengagement - No.  If anything, I want them to create disengagement zones rather than the status effect they use.  (They didn't change it, did they?)  Also properly implement polearms so they create huge disengagement zones.  I like the focus on positioning in PE.

 

Immunities - only when it adds to verisimilitude or characterization.  Fire Blights should not be hurt by fire.  I prefer hefty DR bonuses in most cases.  A lot of explanations get super tedious.

 

Combat only spells - needs to be carefully considered.  BGII prebuff litanies were annoying.

 

Mage duels - Hell no!  While SCS added some interesting strategies (teleport field + melf's minute meteors was novel the first time you see it), mage fights got increasingly tedious as the levels went up.  Battles took longer.  There were actually less tactics as mages took an outsized importance.  Dispel vs. contigency until a warrior inevitable drops the enemy in one hit was not terribly fun.

 

 

 

Furthermore, there's something to be said for letting PE to continue developing its own niche and ideas.  If you want another Baldur's Gate game, Beamdog will keep you supplied for decades to come.

 

I said boring companions, not weak. Give them more quests and more interesting story. All companions should be at least Eder level if they cannot achieve Durance level. I use companions for what they bring to the story, if I cared for their power I would always use characters I create.

 

Disengagement is crap. But if I will be able to remove it with mods I guess it can stay for people of weak strategic skills. 

 

Immunities are already implemented for creatures, I am talking about spells and abilities that players can use and so can enemy NPCs. Something that can change every battle vs humanoids as you don't know in advance what spells they have prepared so they might cast an immunity or something else and you need to change your tactics mid battle to accommodate. 

 

Prebuffing can be solved in 100 ways. Like marking some buffs with special variable and letting you only have one such buff per character. If you cast another one, the last one is removed. 

 

SCS + BG1 or BG2 without SCS is what I am talking about. That goes in combination with Immunities gained through spells or abilities that I talked about up. 

 

Beamdog will not be supplying us any more after the upcoming expansion for Bg1. They are moving to a new engine after that. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by archangel979

[Infinitron]

Pillars of Eternity is under attack by anti-grognards! http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3706905&pagenumber=671&perpage=40

 

Here are some Josh replies:

[Valorian]

When duration is being modified by an attack a graze should be a miss.

[Elric Galad]

When duration is being modified by an attack a graze should be a miss.

I understand the point but it would be horribly hard to affect boss with debuff. CC are a bit a pb but debuff are OK.

 

Especially because debuff are often the only way to affect them with attacks.

 

It would make accuracy and defense too powerful IMHO and gap between accuracy and defense too hard to overcome.

[archangel979]

 

When duration is being modified by an attack a graze should be a miss.

I understand the point but it would be horribly hard to affect boss with debuff. CC are a bit a pb but debuff are OK.

 

Especially because debuff are often the only way to affect them with attacks.

 

It would make accuracy and defense too powerful IMHO and gap between accuracy and defense too hard to overcome.

 

No, it would just mean you need to be ready to fight longer until the debuff you want works. Or that you MUST attack the weakest save instead of whatever like it is now. 

 

The solution to the fighters problem could be solved by having only attacks vs deflection having graze while other 3 only being crit/hit/miss

[Elric Galad]

Not bad idea. Spell targetting deflection are usually single target. This would also make them more interesting to use.

[Infinitron]

[JerekKruger]

I don't know how I feel about removing per rest abilities. There's something I like about having abilities I can't use every combat and having to weigh up whether or not a situation is dire enough to warrant the use of a per rest ability, it adds an extra tactical dimension to the game. I also have to admit a certain fondness for Vancian magic based purely on nostalgia for the IE games, even though I don't think it makes a huge amount of sense (some aspects of traditional Vancian magic are ameliorated in PoE like Wizards not having to prepare every single slot and being able to change spells outside of combat). That said, I am fairly certain I could get over that nostalgia if a suitable alternative was provided.

 

Also chalk me up as one of those weird people who like engagement and don't want to see it removed.

[Teioh_White]

I like per rest as a system as well, but as no game has ever really tried to balance a per rest system, I can see why they'd just rather scrap it. Be strange if they'd want to start now trying to balance it. Easier to just keep shifting to pure per encounter stuff.

 

Also, I don't mind engagement either; I wouldn't cry if it got removed, but it's barely gotten in my way at all while playing. Always seem a strange thing to get em in a bunch over.

[archangel979]

I like per rest as a system as well, but as no game has ever really tried to balance a per rest system, I can see why they'd just rather scrap it. Be strange if they'd want to start now trying to balance it. Easier to just keep shifting to pure per encounter stuff.

 

Also, I don't mind engagement either; I wouldn't cry if it got removed, but it's barely gotten in my way at all while playing. Always seem a strange thing to get em in a bunch over.

Temple of Elemental Evil did. 

[Infinitron]

[Infinitron]

[Guest 4ward]

 

so, they'll keep the melee system for PoE2... sigh. I had so much hoped that there's a company who truly wants to duplicate the combat of IE, the micromnaging, moving of units, i loved that so much. The quote from Josh before WM 1 was realeased where he hoped that BG2 fans would like combat in the expansion had me pumped up again, but i see there's some kind of misconception what IE combat really made special/unique. Well, i was never a fan of stats influencing spells radius and duration either and with that the whole arsenal of aoe spells with hardly any single target spells. Well, at least it's clear where Josh is at and thanks to Sensuki who engaged him on SA in a civilized and respectful discussion about it.

[AndreaColombo]

I'm really curious whether this bit:

 

 

One thing I've been pushing for (lol!!!) is a better push/bump system. I've always wanted push attacks to bump and/or push adjacent targets that get in the way. I think it could have changed a lot of the "chokepoint" situations where people get stacked 2 or 3 characters deep and pushes don't go anywhere.

 

refers to TWM pt. 2. It would make abilities like "Into the Fray" finally viable.

[Infinitron]

Sounds more like a PoE 2 thing to me. Changing the basics of how characters can move around.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Infinitron

[Boeroer]

You think? Sounds like a physics thing. And Unity has 3D physics build in. Should be doable?

 

Would also be awesome if the chars would react to a Ball of Flame or Twin Stones with a physics effect (aka push).

 

They already have some physics in the game: sometimes the models of enemies fly around in absurd poses when I pause, it looks like slow motion - their arms and legs swirling around like that of a ragdoll. When I unpause, that spook is gone - everybody else experienced this?

[AndreaColombo]

They already have some physics in the game: sometimes the models of enemies fly around in absurd poses when I pause, it looks like slow motion - their arms and legs swirling around like that of a ragdoll. When I unpause, that spook is gone - everybody else experienced this?

 

Yep, and I'm fairly sure it's a bug but I cannot repro it consistently so I couldn't report it.

[Ineth]

* An option for Knockout Injuries (off by default). If you want being KOd to be a bigger deal, you'll get an Injury that lasts until you rest. These include most of the Injuries from the base game that you normally get from scripted interactions (e.g. Twisted Ankle, Bruised Ribs) but also include some new damage-specific ones like Severe Burn, System Shock, and Frostbite.

 

That sounds pretty neat.

 

It will add an in-game incentive for avoiding knockouts, but at the same time not make the penalty for failing to do so so harsh that one would simply reload.

[Kilburn]

so, they'll keep the melee system for PoE2... sigh. I had so much hoped that there's a company who truly wants to duplicate the combat of IE, the micromnaging, moving of units, i loved that so much. The quote from Josh before WM 1 was realeased where he hoped that BG2 fans would like combat in the expansion had me pumped up again, but i see there's some kind of misconception what IE combat really made special/unique. Well, i was never a fan of stats influencing spells radius and duration either and with that the whole arsenal of aoe spells with hardly any single target spells. Well, at least it's clear where Josh is at and thanks to Sensuki who engaged him on SA in a civilized and respectful discussion about it.

 

 

What is so great about IE combat? 

 

Dragon Age Origins DESTROYED BG combat on every level.

[Sensuki]

Lol no it didn't.

 

The game camera is bad, the game controls bad, unit movement is bad, there is very little tactical variety, characters generally just spam the same abilities off cooldown over and over, the death system is lulzy like KotOR.

 

It did have some fairly cool boss fights - much better than Pillars of Eternity but not as good as say BG2.

 

Encounter design for the most part is horrific, mostly just the same trash mobs of Darkspawn over and over. There were only a few encounters in the game I actually enjoyed, like Ser Cauthrien although that was mostly just because she had inflated stats but at least it still required doing something different.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Sensuki