The current refugee wave in Europe

[Rosbjerg]

Continued from here.

 

Last posts:

 

 

Ah yes, the 'bad apple spoils the bunch' philosophy.  Very good.

 

No. Just that whatever one may think of the refugees it's an obvious potential easy doorway for terrorists.

 

 

That would be obvious, although really there are probably better doorways for actual organized and funded terrorists.  Ideally it would be great to be able to swoop up any extremists with background checks, but it's probably not entirely realistic. 

 

 

[Drowsy Emperor]

Hurlshot, on 05 Oct 2015 - 7:28 PM, said:

Drowsy Emperor, on 27 Sept 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

That's totally irrelevant. What is relevant is that Muhammad is much closer to Lenin, Stalin or Pol Pot than he is to Jesus or Buddha. Worshiping a merciless military/religious leader is not going to lead to the same conclusions and attitudes as worshiping a pacifist. Even when the christian states of the middle ages and onward were warring among themselves, they knew it was wrong and unjustifiable according to the teachings of Christianity. So much so, that the catholic church had to develop entire doctrines on what constitutes a just war, bending religion over backwards to support the politics of the day.

In Islam however, war and violence is justified against everyone who is not a muslim, which is openly stated in the Quran many times (referencing in particular the pagans of that time, but also explicitly Jews and Christians - in other words everyone else who existed at the time). A person may or may not ignore these instructions, but they're there nonetheless, repeated enough times until there can be no debate about their meaning.

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Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"  Islam is not about treating everyone equally.  This verse tells Muslims that there are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.  Also the word used for 'hard' or 'ruthless' in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as 'painful' or severe' to describe Hell in over 25 other verses including 65:10, 40:46 and 50:26..

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Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

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Tabari 9:69  "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"  The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

How is this even open to debate?

You know, this stuck with me for a bit, because it didn't sound too accurate.  But my copy of an English Koran was at work, and I didn't look it up until just now.  Needless to say, it doesn't match up nearly the same.  My copy is published by Tahrike Tarsile Qu'ran, Inc. in New York, and I have the 14th edition, dated 2005.

Quote

Surah 48:29 Muhammad is the Messanger of Allah; and those who are within are strong against unbelievers, but compassionate amongst each other.  You will see them bow and prostrate themselves in prayer, seeking grace from Allah and his good pleasure.  On their face are marks, being the traces of this prostration.  This is their similitude in the Tauratl and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, filling the sowers with rage and delight.  As a result, it fills the unbelievers with rage at them.  Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness and a great reward.

Quote

Surah 9:30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah.  That is a saying from their mouth; in this they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say.  Allah's curse be upon them: how they are deluded away from the truth!

As for the Tabari, that is a book written by an islamic scholar.  It his record of something someone told him that Muhammad said.  It is hardly what can be considered a central teaching.

 

Much like the bible, translation, context, and interpretation can vary dramatically.  We can cherry pick verses and engage in internet theology all day, but the fact is very few Muslims are out trying to behead unbelievers and conquer the world.  Most just want to live in peace.

 

 

This was an internet quote. My version is the "official" Bosnian one (in the sense that its probably the newest and most popular, or more likely only translation in use), translated by Besim Korkut, some or other muslim scholar.  The printing was financed by KSA.

In Surah 48:25 it says "stern" or more closely "harsh" - definitely not strong.

Surah 9:30 it is the same up until the last sentence where it says - "ubio ih Alah!". Which means literally "may Allah destroy/kill them" and the last part is the same.

In other words its much closer/identical to the one I quoted originally and the meaning is more straightforward.

It is true that religious texts are open to interpretation, however in some cases the intent is rather clear. Here the Christians are equated with the pagans because they dare imply that Christ was the son of God, and not just another prophet. That is essentially idolatry according to Islam, hence them being like the "pagans of old" which is essentially a sin punishable by death (or conversion).

Finally, in any great ideology, religion, political party - it is the best organized (usually the most militant) minority that calls the shots. Most muslims aren't going to be asked their opinion about anything, like any other disorganized majority. They merely get told what to do, or what is desirable for them to do. And the imams and other religious leaders are unequivocally anti-European, anti-western, anti-jewish. A few living in the west are mellowed out (or have to watch what they're saying), but for every one of those there are five rabid jihadi preachers.

With all due respect Hurlshot, you do not have the actual experience of living with Islam. The number of muslims in the states is still statistically insignificant and do not pose much of a threat. In Europe that is not the case.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Zoraptor]

The printing was financed by KSA.

Ah, I think we've found the problem.

 

In all seriousness, there's not a whole lot of chance of that being a genuinely 'mainstream' translation if it's KSA sponsored; it's far more likely to be Wahhabi. Salafi/ Wahhabi translations will be slanted towards fire and brimstone, mainstream Sunni translations will be more mild. Saudi ideology gets massive financial backing but still isn't anywhere near dominant. Yet. And fortunately, because it's extremely retrograde.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I don't know how you figure that. If its used by every serbo-croatian speaking mosque in the Balkans then it is the very definition of mainstream. And Wahhabism is very widespread in every muslim community here. The only reason its not in effective control is the slavic extremely lax approach to religion, which doesn't mesh well with their imported fanaticism.

[Hurlshort]

 

With all due respect Hurlshot, you do not have the actual experience of living with Islam. The number of muslims in the states is still statistically insignificant and do not pose much of a threat. In Europe that is not the case.

 

 

I will definitely concede that point to you, it is hard to imagine what type of impact this surge of immigration and refugees can have on a country.  I am definitely speaking as an outsider on this, and I appreciate your perspective.

 

My main point isn't that this isn't a dramatic issue for Europe, but that I believe it has less to do with the religion of Islam, and more to do with culture clashes and human nature.  We can look at numerous situations throughout history in comparison where Islam was not in the picture, and yet the issues all look very similar.

[BruceVC]

 

 

With all due respect Hurlshot, you do not have the actual experience of living with Islam. The number of muslims in the states is still statistically insignificant and do not pose much of a threat. In Europe that is not the case.

 

 

I will definitely concede that point to you, it is hard to imagine what type of impact this surge of immigration and refugees can have on a country.  I am definitely speaking as an outsider on this, and I appreciate your perspective.

 

My main point isn't that this isn't a dramatic issue for Europe, but that I believe it has less to do with the religion of Islam, and more to do with culture clashes and human nature.  We can look at numerous situations throughout history in comparison where Islam was not in the picture, and yet the issues all look very similar.

 

But Drowsy you also don't really have experience living  with Islam, what is the total percentage of Muslims in Serbia ...4 %, 5 % ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Serbia

 

You could only argue the whole " I have experience living with Muslims " if you grew up in a Muslim country or lived predominantly in the Muslim section of a city which I doubt you did either of those two  things

 

And I'm same as are most people on these forums

[Rostere]

Like I said before, it is hard to argue that what is wrong with Islam today is something inherently wrong with the religion, or the religious texts. I mean, the Torah describes slavery, virulent racism (or should that be tribalism?) and genocide in order to conquer land, but that's not how Jews behave today. The truth is that the Islamic world was pretty much the centre of civilization between the years 800 and 1400 - look for example at the treatment of minorities during the Spanish reconquista for an example of how the Christians were essentially the bad guys during that time period. Then, increasingly Europe became the driving factor behing science and humanism until the 1700s, when it can be argued that the Islamic world had become decrepit enough to not be able to contribute anything at all to science, which is pretty much the case until today.

 

Clearly, if Islamic culture has been more civilized and humanistic than Christian culture at some point in time, there is nothing in theory preventing that from happening again. Also, if you would argue that Western culture is no longer Christian but in practice atheist, there is nothing preventing the same to happen to Islamic culture. So the argument should be about why people choose to interpret religion in a specific way, and not about religion in itself.

[BruceVC]

Like I said before, it is hard to argue that what is wrong with Islam today is something inherently wrong with the religion, or the religious texts. I mean, the Torah describes slavery, virulent racism (or should that be tribalism?) and genocide in order to conquer land, but that's not how Jews behave today. The truth is that the Islamic world was pretty much the centre of civilization between the years 800 and 1400 - look for example at the treatment of minorities during the Spanish reconquista for an example of how the Christians were essentially the bad guys during that time period. Then, increasingly Europe became the driving factor behing science and humanism until the 1700s, when it can be argued that the Islamic world had become decrepit enough to not be able to contribute anything at all to science, which is pretty much the case until today.

 

Clearly, if Islamic culture has been more civilized and humanistic than Christian culture at some point in time, there is nothing in theory preventing that from happening again. Also, if you would argue that Western culture is no longer Christian but in practice atheist, there is nothing preventing the same to happen to Islamic culture. So the argument should be about why people choose to interpret religion in a specific way, and not about religion in itself.

This is a very good post and probably one of the most relevant perspectives I have heard on this aspect of the refugee crisis

 

The salient point being  " we shouldn't blame the religion for some people misinterpreting the text and acting in a certain way "  

[Chilloutman]

Well, but telling people: 'calm down, if few hundred years they will evolve their religious behaviour' will not help much now does it?

[Hurlshort]

Well, but telling people: 'calm down, if few hundred years they will evolve their religious behaviour' will not help much now does it?

 

No, but telling them they are all violent savages who follow a savage religion isn't exactly going to help either.   

 

I should probably add that economic prosperity tends to solve all these problems, while economic crisis magnifies it.  Where I live, you have a tremendous melting pot of cultures and religions, and yet you have very little conflict.  Stabilize the economy, get everyone jobs, and it doesn't matter what religion they are.  Obviously that is harder to do than it is to say.  

[Barothmuk]

The salient point being  "we shouldn't blame the religion for some people misinterpreting the text and acting in a certain way"

Are you a hafiz? If not then I'd find it a tad, bold, to claim who is and who is not correctly interpreting their holy text (pet peeve).

 

With little knowledge of the contents of the Quran I'm going to guess it reflects the attitudes and mores of 7th century Arabia with the actual ideological interpretations by adherents being dependent on the material conditions of its followers. I.e. If there's political and economic stability they'll be relatively peaceable; if they're living in a bombed out third world country with rampant poverty, they will not.

[Gfted1]

^^Beyond economics, Im not sure "melting pot" works in every country though.

[213374U]

^^Beyond economics, Im not sure "melting pot" works in every country though.

It's apparently a tad more complex than simply "it works"/"it doesn't work". It's a phenomenon that has positive and negative aspects. Swiped from a Meshugger post in the previous iteration of the thread:

 

The Downside of Diversity — What happens when a liberal scholar unearths an inconvenient truth?

[Hurlshort]

^^Beyond economics, Im not sure "melting pot" works in every country though.

 

In my opinion, with the way we've moved into a global economy, the global effect of environmental issues, global media, etc.; I'd say the melting pot is pretty much the future.  As an optimist, I just hope it will be a slow and peaceful transition.  But that may not be realistic.     

[BruceVC]

 

The salient point being  "we shouldn't blame the religion for some people misinterpreting the text and acting in a certain way"

Are you a hafiz? If not then I'd find it a tad, bold, to claim who is and who is not correctly interpreting their holy text (pet peeve).

 

With little knowledge of the contents of the Quran I'm going to guess it reflects the attitudes and mores of 7th century Arabia with the actual ideological interpretations by adherents being dependent on the material conditions of its followers. I.e. If there's political and economic stability they'll be relatively peaceable; if they're living in a bombed out third world country with rampant poverty, they will not.

 

Funny enough I am a hafiz so everything I say around Islam you can consider the absolute truth 

[Darkpriest]

 

 

 

With all due respect Hurlshot, you do not have the actual experience of living with Islam. The number of muslims in the states is still statistically insignificant and do not pose much of a threat. In Europe that is not the case.

 

 

I will definitely concede that point to you, it is hard to imagine what type of impact this surge of immigration and refugees can have on a country.  I am definitely speaking as an outsider on this, and I appreciate your perspective.

 

My main point isn't that this isn't a dramatic issue for Europe, but that I believe it has less to do with the religion of Islam, and more to do with culture clashes and human nature.  We can look at numerous situations throughout history in comparison where Islam was not in the picture, and yet the issues all look very similar.

 

But Drowsy you also don't really have experience living  with Islam, what is the total percentage of Muslims in Serbia ...4 %, 5 % ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Serbia

 

You could only argue the whole " I have experience living with Muslims " if you grew up in a Muslim country or lived predominantly in the Muslim section of a city which I doubt you did either of those two  things

 

And I'm same as are most people on these forums

 

 

Bruce,

 

you forget that at some point there was a country called Jugoslavia and forgot the story of two Balkan domestic conflicts (first, the one which dismantled Jugoslavia and second that ripped Kosovo away from Serbia). When you look at that 5% now, it may seem insignificant, but did you tie it to geographical distribution? Perhaps he lives in a part where muslim populace is a majority? Perhaps he was living in Serbian Kosovo before the changes?

 

Perhaps learn the region's history and ask questions first before undermining his position? Would you like if people would assume odd things about you, because they are misinformed about history of SA?

[Zoraptor]

 

 

I should probably add that economic prosperity tends to solve all these problems, while economic crisis magnifies it.  Where I live, you have a tremendous melting pot of cultures and religions, and yet you have very little conflict.  Stabilize the economy, get everyone jobs, and it doesn't matter what religion they are.  Obviously that is harder to do than it is to say.  

 

 

Getting jobs would certainly help a lot, but I don't think it's direct economic prosperity that is the big factor- KSA and Qatar are immensely prosperous and have plenty of radicals, and there's the rather odd situation of 2nd generation immigrants in Europe often being more radical than their parents despite being in a far better financial situation than their parents were at the same time in life. It's what attracts people to cults in general, a feeling of self worth, purpose and being a part of something important that is the biggest factor or conversely, the feeling of worthlessness and exclusion from society in general. Having a job certainly helps with both of those.

 

It's also somewhat ironic but it seems very likely that having people rail against radical Islam, especially a country's leaders, probably encourages radicalisation in those most vulnerable to it in much the same way that having your parents shout at you while a teenager would actually encourage you to do what they didn't want half the time.

[Darkpriest]

Seams that Russians outsmarted others and used Caspian sea as their cruise missile base operations...

 

http://news.yahoo.com/fighting-erupts-central-syria-amid-russian-airstrikes-072047268.html#

 

some geography for those who do not know where that basin is.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea#/media/File:Caspianseamap.png

Edited October 7, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Oerwinde]

 

^^Beyond economics, Im not sure "melting pot" works in every country though.

It's apparently a tad more complex than simply "it works"/"it doesn't work". It's a phenomenon that has positive and negative aspects. Swiped from a Meshugger post in the previous iteration of the thread:

 

The Downside of Diversity — What happens when a liberal scholar unearths an inconvenient truth?

It almost sounds, by reading that article, that enforcing workplace diversity is good, but community diversity is bad.

[Meshugger]

*sigh*

 

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/10/07/honor-killing-syrian-gang-rape-survivor-murdered-germany/

[Malcador]

Hopefully that's just some made up crap - is Breitbart after all - but seems likely, rather sad. I guess they should just take the women and kids and tell the men to hike it back home

 

Found http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/unclean-syrian-woman-who-escaped-to-germany-after-gang-rape-found-stabbed-to-death-in-suspected-a6685011.html

so skepticism was unwarranted

Edited October 8, 2015 by Malcador

[Ineth]

You would force families to break up?

 

That doesn't exactly comply with any humanitarian and moral principles that we (as Western society in our liberal democracies) claim to uphold.

 

Not to mention that the article which Meshugger linked, claims that this honour killing was the mother's idea. So probably would have happened even without the father.

[Darkpriest]

LOL

 

http://news.yahoo.com/popularity-putin-shiite-sky-high-iraq-093642221.html

[Chilloutman]

LOL

 

http://news.yahoo.com/popularity-putin-shiite-sky-high-iraq-093642221.html

nota big surprise

[BruceVC]

Hopefully that's just some made up crap - is Breitbart after all - but seems likely, rather sad. I guess they should just take the women and kids and tell the men to hike it back home

 

Found http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/unclean-syrian-woman-who-escaped-to-germany-after-gang-rape-found-stabbed-to-death-in-suspected-a6685011.html

so skepticism was unwarranted

 

 

You would force families to break up?

 

That doesn't exactly comply with any humanitarian and moral principles that we (as Western society in our liberal democracies) claim to uphold.

 

Not to mention that the article which Meshugger linked, claims that this honour killing was the mother's idea. So probably would have happened even without the father.

Yeah these reprehensible honor killings are rare in Western countries but they do happen...the German authorities  just need to be very heavy handed and ensure  the culprits are either arrested or forced to return to Syria

 

But this does sometimes happen in parts of the Muslim community