Firedorn returns

[LaSpeakeasi]

You see more men as CEOs because more men work in the high pressure fields that are required to get to that level. When everyone is working 60+ hours per week you need to do the same. When men pursue their careers to that extent they can still find a wife who'll raise the kids either full time stay at home or pursuing a less strenuous career which allows for some time with the kids. Women are further hampered by their more limited options for having a family life as well as a career. They'd have a harder time finding a Mr. Mom to stay at home or a husband who works in a field where there is ample free time available for a family. Throw in the issues of having the wife greatly out earning her husband and you have a recipe for a divorce or at least an unhappy partnership.

 

Biology also works against women. A woman who wants her own family is either going to have to take time away from her career path or have her kids raised by strangers. Also you need to consider that you'd want to have your kids before you are forty. This is the age range where the future leaders separate themselves from the pack and rise to the top of a very competitive culture. Dropping out of the race pretty much takes you out of consideration. Also the mere chance that a woman might later choose to drop out in order to have kids is going to factor into the career decisions made by her superiors throughout her career. At a competency parity level, the difference between who gets the promotion and who doesn't is going to be influenced by who might leave to have kids and who won't. Unless there are artificial constraints like quotas involved.

 

A man can have a first marriage where he did not see his family much but achieved great career success, get divorced, marry a much younger woman and then have another set of kids even if he is in his sixties. Older men gain character and distinction, older women just get old.

You see, people like you is the reason why we should never censor any opinion, no matter how offensive or non-factual they may be. I can't wait to share this on Facebook and have a laugh at everything you said in there.

[Ineth]

I had expected this thread to become more about discussing Firedorn's reappearance in The White March and funny theories on what Obsidian wants to tell us with that, rather than repeating the original Firedorn debate and the merits of social justice and feminism in general.

 

But fine, let's get to it:

 

If she dare defy my expectation i.e. demand same pay as men

 

> Still believing in the wage gap myth in 2015

 

Funny you should mention that about women's career choices. Because: 1) How many high profile CEOs do you see are men and how many are women?

 

How many people in the most filthy, unhealthy, uncomfortable and dangerous jobs (coal miner, garbage collector, roofer etc.) do you see are men and how many are women? Spoiler: The split is about 99% - 1%.

 

2) Why do you think women take time from their careers to raise children? Could it be because society expect them to?

 

Could it be that that is irrelevant, when the position you're trying to prove is the existence of a gender wage gap (rather than a different-life-choices wage gap)?

 

Yes society has traditions, but people are free to choose a traditional life or a more 'modern' one.

Many women choose (and thrive at) a modern career lifestyle, proving that there is nothing preventing it.

 

Just because many other women choose a traditional family arrangement instead, does not make you a victim of discrimination, nor does the statistically lower income earned by those who prioritise family over career, mean that women per se "get paid less", so stop perpetuating that myth.

 

[LaSpeakeasi]

 

If she dare defy my expectation i.e. demand same pay as men

 

> Still believing in the wage gap myth in 2015

> Funny you should use that picture. Did you know Patrick Stewart is militant feminist?

[gkathellar]

I had expected this thread to become more about discussing Firedorn's reappearance in The White March and funny theories on what Obsidian wants to tell us with that, rather than repeating the original Firedorn debate and the merits of social justice and feminism in general.

... have you seen the internet?

 

 

> Still believing in the wage gap myth in 2015

 

It sure is well-documented for a myth.

[KDubya]

 

You see more men as CEOs because more men work in the high pressure fields that are required to get to that level. When everyone is working 60+ hours per week you need to do the same. When men pursue their careers to that extent they can still find a wife who'll raise the kids either full time stay at home or pursuing a less strenuous career which allows for some time with the kids. Women are further hampered by their more limited options for having a family life as well as a career. They'd have a harder time finding a Mr. Mom to stay at home or a husband who works in a field where there is ample free time available for a family. Throw in the issues of having the wife greatly out earning her husband and you have a recipe for a divorce or at least an unhappy partnership.

 

Biology also works against women. A woman who wants her own family is either going to have to take time away from her career path or have her kids raised by strangers. Also you need to consider that you'd want to have your kids before you are forty. This is the age range where the future leaders separate themselves from the pack and rise to the top of a very competitive culture. Dropping out of the race pretty much takes you out of consideration. Also the mere chance that a woman might later choose to drop out in order to have kids is going to factor into the career decisions made by her superiors throughout her career. At a competency parity level, the difference between who gets the promotion and who doesn't is going to be influenced by who might leave to have kids and who won't. Unless there are artificial constraints like quotas involved.

 

A man can have a first marriage where he did not see his family much but achieved great career success, get divorced, marry a much younger woman and then have another set of kids even if he is in his sixties. Older men gain character and distinction, older women just get old.

You see, people like you is the reason why we should never censor any opinion, no matter how offensive or non-factual they may be. I can't wait to share this on Facebook and have a laugh at everything you said in there.

 

 

 

So where am I factually incorrect? And where am I being offensive?

 

You might wish the world were different but it is what it is. The bottom line is there are two types of people in the world, those who don't care about your problems and those that are glad that you have them.

 

Your parents, or maybe your teachers, are probably to blame for telling you that you are a special little snowflake, that violence doesn't solve anything or some of the other liberal myths.

[Ineth]

> Funny you should use that picture. Did you know Patrick Stewart is militant feminist?

 

Well the pic shows Captain Picard, not Patrick Stewart as Patrick Stewart...

 

 

It sure is well-documented for a myth.

 

It is well documented that there are statistical differences between the average employment situations of men and women, including the fact that the average income of all working men taken together, is higher than the average income of all working women taken together.

 

It is a myth that this difference arises based on gender and between equally qualified & experienced people who have made the same career choices.

It is merely a statistical artifact that arises due to statistical differences in career and life choices favored by men and women. Because "all working men" and "all working women" simply are not two statistically identical groups.

 

Feminists intentionally ignore and obscure those differences in life choices and career situations that are being compared by the statistics they quote, and irrationally and dishonestly pretend that there is a wage gap based on gender (rather than life choices) - because that fits in with their ideological dogma.

 

Some of them (like President Obama) are smart enough to phrase their "wage gap" claims carefully, so as to be grossly misleading in context, but not technically false when fact-checked literally.

 

Others (like Hillary Clinton and most feminist bloggers and columnists), shamelessly and aggressively push the "for the same work" lie in the open.

 

The "77 cents an hour" meme and "equal pay day" ("the day in the year after which women work for free", they claim) are also thinly veiled

variations of the "for the same work" lie.

[Torm51]

I had expected this thread to become more about discussing Firedorn's reappearance in The White March and funny theories on what Obsidian wants to tell us with that, rather than repeating the original Firedorn debate and the merits of social justice and feminism in general.

 

But fine, let's get to it:

 

If she dare defy my expectation i.e. demand same pay as men

 

> Still believing in the wage gap myth in 2015

 

Funny you should mention that about women's career choices. Because: 1) How many high profile CEOs do you see are men and how many are women?

 

How many people in the most filthy, unhealthy, uncomfortable and dangerous jobs (coal miner, garbage collector, roofer etc.) do you see are men and how many are women? Spoiler: The split is about 99% - 1%.

 

2) Why do you think women take time from their careers to raise children? Could it be because society expect them to?

 

Could it be that that is irrelevant, when the position you're trying to prove is the existence of a gender wage gap (rather than a different-life-choices wage gap)?

 

Yes society has traditions, but people are free to choose a traditional life or a more 'modern' one.

Many women choose (and thrive at) a modern career lifestyle, proving that there is nothing preventing it.

 

Just because many other women choose a traditional family arrangement instead, does not make you a victim of discrimination, nor does the statistically lower income earned by those who prioritise family over career, mean that women per se "get paid less", so stop perpetuating that myth.

You forgot Infantryman.  Dirty career choice my friend but I had fun   Actually doing what your party does (combat ,I know we cant fight dragons...unfortunately) isn't that fun...Its really tiring teheeeeeeee.

[Elerond]

 

Just because many other women choose a traditional family arrangement instead, does not make you a victim of discrimination, nor does the statistically lower income earned by those who prioritise family over career, mean that women per se "get paid less", so stop perpetuating that myth.

 

That is much more complicated issue than that.

 

Systematic issues are hard to see and hard to identify and even harder to pint point cause behind them, statistics show only results of systems in the place. They don't tell us what in the system causes them and what things factor in them. As said statistics tell us results of the system and those results are that women earn less than men and they are most likely have shorter, more broken and less stellar careers than men, even when background factor are selected to be as similar as humanly possible. So there is wage cap between women and men, that is fact because out statistics show that it is so. But why that cap exist is much more complex question, which don't have any definite answers, which is why it is so easy to dismiss or claim that it don't exists.

 

And then  there is question is it a problem and answer to that question depends on personal views of the one who you ask. If person who you ask wants society where there is no wage cap between genders/races/etc. and they want statistics to show that career paths are statistically similar between genders/races/etc. then you probably get answer that there is a problem in the current system (and they probably have their own ideas where that problem might lay) , but if you ask person who thinks that current status quo is fine, then you probably get answer that there is no problem in the system (and they probably have their own ideas that explain why system produces such statistics as it does and why it's fine).

 

So issue is not actually about wage cap or something like that but how statistical results of current system match with world view of person looking them.

[Ineth]

So issue is not actually about wage cap or something like that but how statistical results of current system match with world view of person looking them.

 

A worldview that imposes a "correct" outcome on a statistic which aggregates people's private choices, is totalitarian and evil.

 

Any liberal-minded person would be content with securing equal rights and fairness on the level of the individual, and accept any statistical distribution which the population as a whole causes to arise via their individual choices.

[Elerond]

 

So issue is not actually about wage cap or something like that but how statistical results of current system match with world view of person looking them.

 

A worldview that imposes a "correct" outcome on a statistic which aggregates people's private choices, is totalitarian and evil.

 

Any liberal-minded person would be content with securing equal rights and fairness on the level of the individual, and accept any statistical distribution which the population as a whole causes to arise via their individual choices.

 

 

People's world views always impose correct outcome in how we should look statistics even when you say that they don't matter and current system is fine as it is. What ever you choose you are similarly totalitarian and evil. It is just how world works people look current system in place and decide what they like, what they dislike and what they just don't care and then they do more or less to convince other people to change system more to their liking. In some cases it may be very totalitarian if they actually have power to force changes in the system and some causes it is more democratic as they try to convince other people to change system with them.

 

Like for example in your world view you dictate that people that disagree you with how system is currently working and who would like to change it are evil, which isn't any more liberal mind set (IMO) than claiming that people who don't want to change system are evil.

[Ineth]

People's world views always impose correct outcome in how we should look statistics even when you say that they don't matter and current system is fine as it is. What ever you choose you are similarly totalitarian and evil.

No, I'm not declaring the current statistical outcome as the 'correct' one.

I'm saying the categories of 'right' or 'wrong' don't apply at all to such statistical outcomes.

 

Like for example in your world view you dictate that people that disagree you with how system is currently working and who would like to change it are evil

 

I called the worldview/ideology itself evil, not the people following it.

 

Non-evil people often follow evil ideas out of intellectual laziness, groupthink, tradition, or stupidity.

[Sannom]

Personal idea : the return of Firedorn is a bone thrown into the backer's direction by Obsidian to make up for his original content being axed. Then Obsidian referenced the original controversy by linking the bounty to dragons, sex-changing beings of the world of Eora.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Sannom

[Gfted1]

Dragons can change sex in Eora? What lore purpose does that serve?

[Torm51]

Dragons can change sex in Eora? What lore purpose does that serve?

Dragons are rare.  They can change sexes I think Incase they run into another Dragon of the same sex they aren't SOL and cant continue their line.  One can sex change.

[Torm51]

Personal idea : the return of Firedorn is a bone thrown into the backer's direction by Obsidian to make up for his original content being axed. Then Obsidian referenced the original controversy by linking the bounty to dragons, sex-changing beings of the world of Eora.

never thought about it that way but makes sense lol

[Karkarov]

Dragons can change sex in Eora? What lore purpose does that serve?

Torm makes a good point but I think it is mostly to piss off people and start retarted transphobic flame wars in the forums.

[rheingold]

 

 

Agreed 100%. The easily offended should grow a spine; this is life, not nursery school.

Then again, when some people say "equality" what they really want is preferential treatment. It's part of the whole politically correct lingo, just like advocating for the removal of gender-specific pronouns. Do they offend you? Then it's time you grow up. I call things their name. Calling me "they" to avoid referencing my sex won't change what lies between my legs.

 

So you admit that the most important thing you see in a person is their gender? No wonder you think equality equals preferential treatment.

 

"I call this person a woman because I think she has a uterus and I've always made up my mind about what her role in society should be and I will treat her according to how I expect her to behave. If she dare defy my expectation i.e. demand same pay as men or have sex with whoever she wants she must be asking for preferential treatment. I can't allow that because I'm too narrow-minded to adapt my behavior to accommodate other people."

 

News flash. We live in a world of preferential treatment. Men are treated preferably to women. Heterosexuals are treated preferably to gays. Sis-gender are treated preferably than trans-gendered. Stop pretending life is better than nursery school.

 

In today's Victim society if you can't claim victim status you're SOL. I'm a white male so everyone can treat me badly since I can not be a victim since I don't happen to be homosexual or even dress up like a woman from time to time.

 

The statistics used to show that women are paid less do NOT take into account that many women choose to leave the workforce for a period of years to raise their kids and also generally choose careers that allow for more time away from work in order to care for their families. If you limit the comparison to career ladder types who work 60+ hours per week in high pressure fields you'll see that the pay is comparable. When women start to choose to raise their families via a voice on the phone like many successful men do you'll see similar payscales.

 

If someone does not want to bake you a cake just go to another baker, maybe even start a protest to inform others that the baker won't bake your cake and steer some business away. But why throw the power of the courts at them in order to crush them and drive them into bankruptcy? I'm surprised they weren't sent to re-education camps, they worked for Mao didn't they?

 

Why is there a Black Congressional Caucus? Just imagine if there was a White Caucus.

 

Why is La Raza and MEChA allowed on campus, and even has a member on the Supreme Court? When your motto is "for the race everything, for everyone else nothing" Again if they were a bunch of white people doing that they'd be in jail and called Nazis.

 

Take president Obama, change his race and he never wins the election. People voted their guilt that has been instilled in them by popular culture for the last forty years.

 

Senator Elizabeth Warren, AKA Fauxcahontas or Liawatha, pretended to be a Native American in order to enhance her career. She was found out to be a fraud and a liar and still won an election.

 

Hillary Clinton is the Democrats front runner and her only accomplishment in life is that she is a woman and she did not divorce Bill Clinton.

 

Cry me a river about how the evil white men are keeping everyone else down. In today's society victims have the power.

Huh, is this for real.... Seriously I wouldn't even know how to address this level of ignorance.

Newsflash, privilege is something you only notice when you don't have it. As far as poor white males (who by the way are the most privileged race on the planet) being victims is laughable. There are so many studies and articles by respected social scientists on these matters, really ignorance is no excuse anymore.

[Ineth]

Personal idea : the return of Firedorn is a bone thrown into the backer's direction by Obsidian to make up for his original content being axed. Then Obsidian referenced the original controversy by linking the bounty to dragons, sex-changing beings of the world of Eora.

 

I wonder when they developed that part of the White March Part 1 expansion.

 

Maybe it was early on, when the Firedorn controversy was still fresh - and they didn't consider that by the time the expansion would be released, that controversy would already seem like ancient history.

 

Nice catch though, regarding the dragons. I remember now that the "dragons can change sex" lore was introduced in some backer update on dragons way back when, but I had completely forgotten it and would have never made that connection.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Ineth

[gkathellar]

 

Dragons can change sex in Eora? What lore purpose does that serve?

 

Dragons are rare.  They can change sexes I think Incase they run into another Dragon of the same sex they aren't SOL and cant continue their line.  One can sex change.

 

There are no shortage of species that do this, although IIRC no mammals, birds, or modern reptiles due to complexity constraints. Simple organisms may also have a multitude of sexes, for pretty much the same reason. Given the size and age of fully-grown dragons, hermaphroditism would probably be more plausible, but sex-changing is a perfectly fair explanation.

 

As far as poor white males (who by the way are the most privileged race on the planet) being victims is laughable.

Plenty of straight cisgender white males are victimized by society. Unless a person is one of the rich, they are being victimized by society (and going by studies of how wealth and happiness interact, there's a case to be made that even they ain't doing so well). By absolutely no means is everyone is oppressed equally, but everyone is oppressed - and virtually everyone has a hand in continuing the cycle of oppression.

[KDubya]

 

 

 

Agreed 100%. The easily offended should grow a spine; this is life, not nursery school.

Then again, when some people say "equality" what they really want is preferential treatment. It's part of the whole politically correct lingo, just like advocating for the removal of gender-specific pronouns. Do they offend you? Then it's time you grow up. I call things their name. Calling me "they" to avoid referencing my sex won't change what lies between my legs.

So you admit that the most important thing you see in a person is their gender? No wonder you think equality equals preferential treatment.

 

"I call this person a woman because I think she has a uterus and I've always made up my mind about what her role in society should be and I will treat her according to how I expect her to behave. If she dare defy my expectation i.e. demand same pay as men or have sex with whoever she wants she must be asking for preferential treatment. I can't allow that because I'm too narrow-minded to adapt my behavior to accommodate other people."

 

News flash. We live in a world of preferential treatment. Men are treated preferably to women. Heterosexuals are treated preferably to gays. Sis-gender are treated preferably than trans-gendered. Stop pretending life is better than nursery school.

 

In today's Victim society if you can't claim victim status you're SOL. I'm a white male so everyone can treat me badly since I can not be a victim since I don't happen to be homosexual or even dress up like a woman from time to time.

 

The statistics used to show that women are paid less do NOT take into account that many women choose to leave the workforce for a period of years to raise their kids and also generally choose careers that allow for more time away from work in order to care for their families. If you limit the comparison to career ladder types who work 60+ hours per week in high pressure fields you'll see that the pay is comparable. When women start to choose to raise their families via a voice on the phone like many successful men do you'll see similar payscales.

 

If someone does not want to bake you a cake just go to another baker, maybe even start a protest to inform others that the baker won't bake your cake and steer some business away. But why throw the power of the courts at them in order to crush them and drive them into bankruptcy? I'm surprised they weren't sent to re-education camps, they worked for Mao didn't they?

 

Why is there a Black Congressional Caucus? Just imagine if there was a White Caucus.

 

Why is La Raza and MEChA allowed on campus, and even has a member on the Supreme Court? When your motto is "for the race everything, for everyone else nothing" Again if they were a bunch of white people doing that they'd be in jail and called Nazis.

 

Take president Obama, change his race and he never wins the election. People voted their guilt that has been instilled in them by popular culture for the last forty years.

 

Senator Elizabeth Warren, AKA Fauxcahontas or Liawatha, pretended to be a Native American in order to enhance her career. She was found out to be a fraud and a liar and still won an election.

 

Hillary Clinton is the Democrats front runner and her only accomplishment in life is that she is a woman and she did not divorce Bill Clinton.

 

Cry me a river about how the evil white men are keeping everyone else down. In today's society victims have the power.

Huh, is this for real.... Seriously I wouldn't even know how to address this level of ignorance.

Newsflash, privilege is something you only notice when you don't have it. As far as poor white males (who by the way are the most privileged race on the planet) being victims is laughable. There are so many studies and articles by respected social scientists on these matters, really ignorance is no excuse anymore.

 

 

Nice job , tell your indoctrinators that you have learned well.

 

Step one - insult people who do not follow your dogma. No reason to think about what someone says when you can instead call them names.

 

Step two - use the buzzwords of "privilege" as taught to you by your Marxist teachers

 

Step three - invoke respected social studies and articles that echo your own group think.

 

What's next start a petition to have me banned?

 

 

 

I'm fortunate that my grandparents came to America, and that they taught me to have a work ethic. Everything I have I earned through hard work, perseverance and skill. Nobody gave it to me and I find your insinuation of me getting a free pass based on some mythical "white privilege" to be insulting and racist.

 

If you fail in America the person you should blame is the loser you see in the mirror.

[Bryy]

Yup, knew that a Firedorn thread would tun into a "Sexism is a myth" thread.

[Karkarov]

Yup, knew that a Firedorn thread would tun into a "Sexism is a myth" thread.

Did you realize this before or after you killed him.... or her depending on your perspective?

[Bryy]

 

Yup, knew that a Firedorn thread would tun into a "Sexism is a myth" thread.

Did you realize this before or after you killed him.... or her depending on your perspective?

 

????

[Silent Winter]

I call things their name.

"Call a spade a spade," eh? You know, the funny thing about that phrase is that spade is actually an archaic slur for a black person.

'archaic' by whose measurement of time?

"Call a spade a spade" is a very old saying that far predates any racial slurs - the phrase may have become unpopular in America due to the later use of 'spade' as a racial slur - the rest of the world uses it to mean what it means

 

Huh, is this for real.... Seriously I wouldn't even know how to address this level of ignorance.

Newsflash, privilege is something you only notice when you don't have it. As far as poor white males (who by the way are the most privileged race on the planet) being victims is laughable. There are so many studies and articles by respected social scientists on these matters, really ignorance is no excuse anymore.

Maybe on average, in the USA say, - come visit China sometime - white guys get lots of racial abuse here

As for only noticing privilege when you don't have it - try empathizing sometime, you can notice a lot of things that you might otherwise miss.

 

I keep hearing this about straight white men being treated badly. I feel for you bro. And I gotta ask, what did people do? Because for me, being treated badly means working in a coffee shop to pay for college and have random stranger telling me to "**** off back to China or wherever I came from"

As an example - pretty much that phrase but the opposite way round

[gkathellar]

@Silent Winter - I take your point; certainly assuming an American audience is a result of my own biases, and I appreciate the reminder.