I think Mercenary Brawlers need to be looked at.

[hk79v1]

My level 12 party (ranged rogue PC + Eder, Pallegina, Durance, Hiravias and Aloth) cleared that area without any major problems. The last fight was a joke too - those doors are so small..

Yeah too bad the fight triggers when you're right in the middle of the room unless you cheese it and kite them from the door with a scroll or long range bow.

 

ALSO I'm level 12 folks, the original max level. 2 levels shouldn't really make that much a difference when the equipment tiers haven't gone up and the only thing that's really changed is new spells and abilities(which you would think wouldn't have THAT huge an impact). To put it easily, I practically solo'd the final boss with my Wild Orlen Fighter

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

 

 

Cragholdt is the high level area (level 14) for the expansion.

 

The starting areas for the new expansion content is in The White March, which you can access through the World Map if you have already spoken to the Steward about the message.

 

This *really* needs to be made more clear in the actual expansion. The way it's worded is ambiguous at best, and players who head to Cragholdt right off the bat are in for a *VERY* rough time of things. I've never seen that kind of targeted "kill the squishie" obsession in enemies before and it was....surprising. It *almost* frustrated me enough to stop playing.

 

The Steward in Caed Nua said outright that I'd be outmatched if I went there when my party was all level 7, and said I should avoid it until I was stronger. Not really sure how much clearer it could be without breaking the fourth wall.

 

I don't recall seeing any warning with my level 11 party, and every battle through the place was like fighting Raedric...only worse, because Raedric was simply overpowering my party while everybody in Cragholdt were consistently bypassing my front line and just straight face-stomping my casters.

I find myself not reading everything when a new game comes about and end up missing important info like this. My wife has a few things to say about that type of lack of attention. Of course I respond with "We're you talking dear."

[Katarack21]

I suspect the script changes at a certain level, but that it remains extraordinarily difficult at that level.

[Cimmerian999]

I could be wrong but I believe if you make the right choices in the script you can kill the Drunk Orlan without a fight.  Not too honorable but it works...

[hk79v1]

I could be wrong but I believe if you make the right choices in the script you can kill the Drunk Orlan without a fight.  Not too honorable but it works...

He attacked me on sight, no dialogue. I tried to enter the camp peacefully and while one soldier was like "Oh CRAP it's the Lord of Caed Nua" the other was like "F*** off we got orders, CHARGE!". And thus the rest of the camp followed suit in groups of 3 to 6 and varying degrees of difficulty. You know what's funny? The mercenaries leader at the end was actually the EASIEST fight in the whole scenario. Barely took any damage, used only a few high level spells.

[Katarack21]

 

I could be wrong but I believe if you make the right choices in the script you can kill the Drunk Orlan without a fight.  Not too honorable but it works...

He attacked me on sight, no dialogue. I tried to enter the camp peacefully and while one soldier was like "Oh CRAP it's the Lord of Caed Nua" the other was like "F*** off we got orders, CHARGE!". And thus the rest of the camp followed suit in groups of 3 to 6 and varying degrees of difficulty. You know what's funny? The mercenaries leader at the end was actually the EASIEST fight in the whole scenario. Barely took any damage, used only a few high level spells.

 

Yup. You know what else? I told that leader that his minion attacked me for damn reason, and he was all "**** YOU! My men have standing orders not to attack--and they don't do **** without my orders! Kill this liar!"

 

What a jackass.

[Hassat Hunter]

Really? For me he was all like "we got orders to let no-one in, and I'm going to furfil my contract as given, so die"

[drunetovich]

It is kind of immersion breaking for me to encounter mercenaries that could wipe floor with adra dragon without breaking a sweat

[hk79v1]

Okay I did the looking and I know what it is, the A.I. pre-empted their abilities WAY faster than a human could micro managing. That's all there is to it, also SOME HOW they were able to accrue several wounds in the span of a few seconds despite not being struck once. And I checked through their ability lists, they have NOTHING that allows them to self-generate Wounds. They do have around 300+ Endurance each though at level 14 and really high stats. I'm gonna try and replicate the Human one's scores and skills.

 

Update Edit: NO their scores are BROKEN. The Human alone has +14 attribute points over the possible allowable amount. Come ON Obsidian the MONSTERS breaking the stat caps I can understand but NOT NPC races we can make/emulate. That's BULLCRAP and you know it!

 

Update Edit the 2nd: And they have MORE ABILITIES to boot. Okay you know what? Making it challenging is one thing but outright making them better in all regards to anything we can make is a bit much, you know? Like, the deck is stacked enough that they're not worried about surviving or burning through their abilities AND outnumber us but come ON.

 

NOTE: I just realized this check was done on Path of the Damned, just...WOW I was not expecting outright "Yes our characters built from the same system are NOT bound by the same rules are you in any way, shape or form". I'm gonna try and check them out on a lower difficulty since PotD outright stats they have better stats and more abilities. Still though..

 

UPDATE TO ALL THINGS: Yeah, their stats are THE SAME on Normal. MORE ABILITIES, MORE STATS. Same Race and Class we have access to, WAY TO CHEAT OBSIDIAN!

Edited August 31, 2015 by hk79v1

[hk79v1]

 

Cragholdt is the high level area (level 14) for the expansion.

 

The starting areas for the new expansion content is in The White March, which you can access through the World Map if you have already spoken to the Steward about the message.

This *really* needs to be made more clear in the actual expansion. The way it's worded is ambiguous at best, and players who head to Cragholdt right off the bat are in for a *VERY* rough time of things. I've never seen that kind of targeted "kill the squishie" obsession in enemies before and it was....surprising. It *almost* frustrated me enough to stop playing.

 

Not only is it high level, it's got enemies at LEVEL 15! Crothar the Ogre is level 15, Concelhaut is level 15 and the Class/Race NPC enemies ALL have more abilities and talents than are possible to have(for us). For monsters I can understand they're not bound by the same "rules" the creatable NPC classes are but come ON that's just unfair.

[Mechalibur]

Cragholdt was probably the most fun I had in the entire game. The enemies were diverse, and quite challenging in most cases. I will agree that the Brawlers were probably a little over the top, especially when compared to the other enemies.

 

It seems counter-intuitive, but I noticed one of the best ways to beat them is to ignore them until the other enemies are dealt with. I believe they use a wound system like monks, so if you don't hurt them, they won't use that nasty duplicate ability (which, if it's the same as the PC ability, requires 8 wounds to use).

[hk79v1]

Cragholdt was probably the most fun I had in the entire game. The enemies were diverse, and quite challenging in most cases. I will agree that the Brawlers were probably a little over the top, especially when compared to the other enemies.

 

It seems counter-intuitive, but I noticed one of the best ways to beat them is to ignore them until the other enemies are dealt with. I believe they use a wound system like monks, so if you don't hurt them, they won't use that nasty duplicate ability (which, if it's the same as the PC ability, requires 8 wounds to use).

I've had them launch right at me, ignoring the wounds mechanic and using tons of abilities quickly. Honestly, I think they're broken.

[Mechalibur]

When I left them alone, they never used duplicate. So it worked for me, at least.

[kickthezombie]

I whole heartedly concur. It is frigging ridiculous how powerful these merc brawlers are. Just look at their resistances (see attach screenshot) They are resistant to bloody everything except maybe a fireball but they never stay in one place long enough to hit them.

 

They are impossible to stop. You can't blind them hobble them petrify them hell even trying to stun them is nigh on impossible. And then to top the whole lot off they are allowed to make up to 4 duplicates of themselves? I mean WTF?

 

My party is not particularly low level all are 13th with one 12th. It says something when it is easier to take out a gaggle of  Mercenary war priests than it is to take out just one brawler.

 

And another thing they move WAY too fast than they should be able to. Even faster than my character with boots of speed on.  That is just plan wrong.

 

Some seriously rebalancing needs to be done with that NPC either that or just lock out the Craghold mission completely until you are level 15+

[Crucis]

I whole heartedly concur. It is frigging ridiculous how powerful these merc brawlers are. Just look at their resistances (see attach screenshot)poe-merc-brawler.jpg They are resistant to bloody everything except maybe a fireball but they never stay in one place long enough to hit them.

 

They are impossible to stop. You can't blind them hobble them petrify them hell even trying to stun them is nigh on impossible. And then to top the whole lot off they are allowed to make up to 4 duplicates of themselves? I mean WTF?

 

My party is not particularly low level all are 13th with one 12th. It says something when it is easier to take out a gaggle of  Mercenary war priests than it is to take out just one brawler.

 

And another thing they move WAY too fast than they should be able to. Even faster than my character with boots of speed on.  That is just plan wrong.

 

Some seriously rebalancing needs to be done with that NPC either that or just lock out the Craghold mission completely until you are level 15+

 

Zombie, from the pic, I can see that this is the Torn Bannermen group outside of Concelhaut's place.  These guys are supposed to be tough, very, VERY tough!!!  Toning them down would be defeat the entire point.  And it's not necessary to lock out Craghold just because you're not high enough level.    If you have trouble against the Torn Bannermen in the first few engagements as you move into the area, no one's forcing you to keep trying to move forward.  You are more than able to fall back to Caed Nua and lick your wounds and return when your party is stronger.

[Boeroer]

Tough is one thing, (hopefully) bugged abilities are another (that's one FoA from one Brawler here):

Edited April 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[kickthezombie]

Zombie, from the pic, I can see that this is the Torn Bannermen group outside of Concelhaut's place.  These guys are supposed to be tough, very, VERY tough!!!  Toning them down would be defeat the entire point.  And it's not necessary to lock out Craghold just because you're not high enough level.    If you have trouble against the Torn Bannermen in the first few engagements as you move into the area, no one's forcing you to keep trying to move forward.  You are more than able to fall back to Caed Nua and lick your wounds and return when your party is stronger.

 

Hmmm well truth is I have already cleared out all the other areas save the undead and the main gate area. The others were tough sure.. but this group of 5 seem super tough. I pin it mainly down to the brawlers because there is no way to pin them down, They run incredibly fast and straight through walls of force or thorns ignore ice spike rock spikes anything that might knock them prone and then they are able to create 2 duplicates each of themselves both fire and shock which is just way too much. That means as a party of 6 you are fighting effectively 6 unstoppable Brawlers and clones 2 pretty strong soldiers and a quite powerful battlemage. 9 - 6 . Oh and someone else mentioned and I can confirm if you do manage to kill a brawler his clones don't die with him. That is just unfair. 

 

Taking out the battlemage is easiest because I can at least hold them in place, while running attacks one after another. But the brawlers zoom to whoever has the lowest defence and bam! They are down.

 

I honestly don't see what a few levels will add to this problem unless there is some spell that can stop the little suckers from running around like crazy.

 

I have consider going up from the cave through the undead but that is no easy task either.

 

I am going to have to look for some other way to think about this. Hmmm

[kickthezombie]

Tough is one thing, (hopefully) bugged abilities are another (that's one FoA from one Brawler here):

 

Ouch.. did not know it was as bad as that. That is just brutal. How can they lay an entire party prone but nothing you throw at them will even slow them down let alone stop them? I have seen them just walk right through walls of thorns and force like they were not there. And one time my mage tried to run away with boots of speed and they caught him?!

[Boeroer]

I think they have boots of speed and Long Stride.

 

I build a monk like that once - plus Fast Runner - and he was a bit faster than those Brawlers.

 

By the way: if you use boots of speed and Long Stride and Fast Runner your monk's duplicates will also be superfast.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

I soloed those brawlers.

(Lucky for me I went to WM before lvl 9 )

[Crucis]

 

Zombie, from the pic, I can see that this is the Torn Bannermen group outside of Concelhaut's place.  These guys are supposed to be tough, very, VERY tough!!!  Toning them down would be defeat the entire point.  And it's not necessary to lock out Craghold just because you're not high enough level.    If you have trouble against the Torn Bannermen in the first few engagements as you move into the area, no one's forcing you to keep trying to move forward.  You are more than able to fall back to Caed Nua and lick your wounds and return when your party is stronger.

 

Hmmm well truth is I have already cleared out all the other areas save the undead and the main gate area. The others were tough sure.. but this group of 5 seem super tough. I pin it mainly down to the brawlers because there is no way to pin them down, They run incredibly fast and straight through walls of force or thorns ignore ice spike rock spikes anything that might knock them prone and then they are able to create 2 duplicates each of themselves both fire and shock which is just way too much. That means as a party of 6 you are fighting effectively 6 unstoppable Brawlers and clones 2 pretty strong soldiers and a quite powerful battlemage. 9 - 6 . Oh and someone else mentioned and I can confirm if you do manage to kill a brawler his clones don't die with him. That is just unfair. 

 

Taking out the battlemage is easiest because I can at least hold them in place, while running attacks one after another. But the brawlers zoom to whoever has the lowest defence and bam! They are down.

 

I honestly don't see what a few levels will add to this problem unless there is some spell that can stop the little suckers from running around like crazy.

 

I have consider going up from the cave through the undead but that is no easy task either.

 

I am going to have to look for some other way to think about this. Hmmm

 

 

The very first tome I went to Cragholdt, I barely survived the first encounter at the front gate.  My party was around level 12 at the time.  So I decided to retreat back to Caed Nua, and I didn't go back until I was around level 15, IIRC.  And at that time I was able plow through the Torn Bannermen without too much difficulty.  I will say though that those last couple of battles against the TB in the NW are fairly difficult.  But to be honest, I don't recall the merc brawlers as being overly difficult, any more so than any of the other enemies in those fights.  Just focus fire on them, particularly when you get them "badly wounded" or "near death".  Don't let them get healed.  Get them dead.

 

As for them going after your softest team member, yeah, that seems to be a fairly common tactic among high level monks.  Try not to let your softest team member, presumably a wizard or perhaps a rogue, be alone.  If he gets caught alone, some monk will massacre them one on one.  Also, if you have a priest in your party, a good way to help save your softest character is to have the monk cast a Withdraw spell on him.  And bingo, they can't target him any longer.  Also, if your "softest" character is a wizard, right at the start of the battle it may be a good idea to have him throw up one of the DEFL enhancing spells, like Mirror Image, etc.  It may cause those that would target him to go after someone else, i.e. someone better able to defend themselves against an enemy monk.

 

 

 

 

[kickthezombie]

 

The very first tome I went to Cragholdt, I barely survived the first encounter at the front gate.  My party was around level 12 at the time.  So I decided to retreat back to Caed Nua, and I didn't go back until I was around level 15, IIRC.  And at that time I was able plow through the Torn Bannermen without too much difficulty.  I will say though that those last couple of battles against the TB in the NW are fairly difficult.  But to be honest, I don't recall the merc brawlers as being overly difficult, any more so than any of the other enemies in those fights.  Just focus fire on them, particularly when you get them "badly wounded" or "near death".  Don't let them get healed.  Get them dead.

 

As for them going after your softest team member, yeah, that seems to be a fairly common tactic among high level monks.  Try not to let your softest team member, presumably a wizard or perhaps a rogue, be alone.  If he gets caught alone, some monk will massacre them one on one.  Also, if you have a priest in your party, a good way to help save your softest character is to have the monk cast a Withdraw spell on him.  And bingo, they can't target him any longer.  Also, if your "softest" character is a wizard, right at the start of the battle it may be a good idea to have him throw up one of the DEFL enhancing spells, like Mirror Image, etc.  It may cause those that would target him to go after someone else, i.e. someone better able to defend themselves against an enemy monk.

 

Hmm interesting. Well I think you can see from my screenshot I have a Rogue a Monk a Druid a Ranger + wolf A Mage and a Cleric  Maybe I need some sort of tank either Elder or Pallegina. So brawlers are like monks then? That explains a lot then. Instant damage is something I don't need to inflict but I would still like to find a way to stop them running so fast because trying to predict where they will be a second later is pretty tough. My favourite tactic is to corral fighters from each other so they cannot run to aid another who is about to die. But the brawlers just run though everything I have to stop them, they even break off combat sometimes to support a fellow baddy who should be dead.

 

Maybe I will just admit defeat and see if I can regroup and maybe swap things around.

 

Thanks.

[Crucis]

 

 

The very first tome I went to Cragholdt, I barely survived the first encounter at the front gate.  My party was around level 12 at the time.  So I decided to retreat back to Caed Nua, and I didn't go back until I was around level 15, IIRC.  And at that time I was able plow through the Torn Bannermen without too much difficulty.  I will say though that those last couple of battles against the TB in the NW are fairly difficult.  But to be honest, I don't recall the merc brawlers as being overly difficult, any more so than any of the other enemies in those fights.  Just focus fire on them, particularly when you get them "badly wounded" or "near death".  Don't let them get healed.  Get them dead.

 

As for them going after your softest team member, yeah, that seems to be a fairly common tactic among high level monks.  Try not to let your softest team member, presumably a wizard or perhaps a rogue, be alone.  If he gets caught alone, some monk will massacre them one on one.  Also, if you have a priest in your party, a good way to help save your softest character is to have the monk cast a Withdraw spell on him.  And bingo, they can't target him any longer.  Also, if your "softest" character is a wizard, right at the start of the battle it may be a good idea to have him throw up one of the DEFL enhancing spells, like Mirror Image, etc.  It may cause those that would target him to go after someone else, i.e. someone better able to defend themselves against an enemy monk.

 

Hmm interesting. Well I think you can see from my screenshot I have a Rogue a Monk a Druid a Ranger + wolf A Mage and a Cleric  Maybe I need some sort of tank either Elder or Pallegina. So brawlers are like monks then? That explains a lot then. Instant damage is something I don't need to inflict but I would still like to find a way to stop them running so fast because trying to predict where they will be a second later is pretty tough. My favourite tactic is to corral fighters from each other so they cannot run to aid another who is about to die. But the brawlers just run though everything I have to stop them, they even break off combat sometimes to support a fellow baddy who should be dead.

 

Maybe I will just admit defeat and see if I can regroup and maybe swap things around.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Ahhh, this may be the source of your problems.  I won't say that this is a bad party.  I believe that one can win pretty much any battle with pretty much any combination of classes.  That said, I also think that some class combos will be better suited for certain types or groups of enemies than other combos.

 

For a comparison, this is my current party.   An Aumaua Fighter PC.  Pallegina (paladin), Zahua (monk), Devil of Caroc (rogue, but a naturally heavily armored one), Sagani/Ittumak (Ranger and pet), Grieving Mother (cipher).  Also, I've switched GM and Aloth quite a bit, but I'm currently running with GM in the arcane caster slot.

 

As you can see, this party is much more heavily focused on physical combat, and tends to do quite well in pretty much any fight.  I will admit that going without a priest was a little scary at first.  But after surviving some battles against fampyrs unscathed (Aegis of Loyalty on Pallegina is just about a MUST if you're going to go without a priest), I've found that Pallegina has been more than enough of a healer to get the party through almost every battle. 

[KDubya]

Another thing you should try and do is focus fire on one Monk at a time, preferably while he is prone or stunned. You do not want to wound him enough to summon the twins. You definitely do not want to wound many monks at the same time and have them all summon the twins

 

They are resistant to CC but not immune. Try some debuffs first to get something to stick. Charm or dominate would be good to get them to attack each other.

 

Monks are the toughest enemies to face, wait till you go to the abbey and fight groups of Monks backed by Priests and Paladins

[Injurious Will]

A similar observation I had in that area were the spellcasters.  They were getting damage outputs from spells that didn't make any sense, based on the descriptions (e.g. Rolling flame damage post my Burn DR in the mid 60 point range).  This was on POTD, so evidently Obsidian has played with more than the resistances and DR of the monsters...