[2.0 Beta] Retraining Wizard Also Resets Grimoire

[LaSpeakeasi]

Is this intentional? I retrained Aloth at level 12, and his grimoire was wiped clean. I only get to keep the spells you learn normally when leveling up, and you can pay to copy the spells already in the grimoire. But spells previously copied from fallen enemies that are not memories are all lost.

 

It seems to put wizards at an unfair disadvantage. Since there is no limitation on spells you could learn any way, why not leave spells completely untouched when retraining wizards? You can neither gain or lose new spells this way.

 

Seems to make more sense.

[lameover]

Same thing.

[Aarik D]

Hey Everyone,

 

Could either of you please upload a save file along with an output/player log through dropbox and post the link here? If possible, please pick a save file before you have performed the respec. 

 

Thank you for your support.

[LaSpeakeasi]

Hey Everyone,

 

Could either of you please upload a save file along with an output/player log through dropbox and post the link here? If possible, please pick a save file before you have performed the respec. 

 

Thank you for your support.

I will try. I'm traveling at the moment and don't have perfect access to Dropbox.

 

Also this may be a dumb question, but I searched the pinned threads and couldn't find instruction to creating an output/player log. Could you specify pls?

[MathieuG89]

I will try. I'm traveling at the moment and don't have perfect access to Dropbox.

 

Also this may be a dumb question, but I searched the pinned threads and couldn't find instruction to creating an output/player log. Could you specify pls?

 

 

Follow the link in his signature for those instructions.

[Aarik D]

Hello everyone,

 

Turns out that this actually intended. When you are retraining, you are wiping everything you have done with your wizard spells, talents, and skills. As long as you still have the grimoires from fallen enemies, you can still relearn them. 

 

Thank you all for your support. 

[Thessaly]

Hello everyone,

 

Turns out that this actually intended. When you are retraining, you are wiping everything you have done with your wizard spells, talents, and skills. As long as you still have the grimoires from fallen enemies, you can still relearn them. 

 

Thank you all for your support. 

 

At least we know it's an intended consequence and can plan accordingly. Thanks, Aarik!

[LaSpeakeasi]

Hello everyone,

 

Turns out that this actually intended. When you are retraining, you are wiping everything you have done with your wizard spells, talents, and skills. As long as you still have the grimoires from fallen enemies, you can still relearn them. 

 

Thank you all for your support. 

 

That's the problem. I didn't know to keep enemy grimoires because before Beta 2.0 I never planned to lose the spells I have learned. That's why I paid coppers to learn them from the enemy grimoires. *SO THAT I DON'T LOSE THEM*. I think this feature should be changed.

 

As I explained in the initial post, it makes more sense to keep the spells. Not every spell a wizard learns is a result of leveling up. And it puts wizards at a disadvantage.

 

 

 

 

Hello everyone,

 

Turns out that this actually intended. When you are retraining, you are wiping everything you have done with your wizard spells, talents, and skills. As long as you still have the grimoires from fallen enemies, you can still relearn them. 

 

Thank you all for your support. 

 

At least we know it's an intended consequence and can plan accordingly. Thanks, Aarik!

 

What do you mean plan accordingly? PoE isn't a new game. People have been playing it for weeks, even months. Too late to start planning now.

Edited August 18, 2015 by LaSpeakeasi

[LaSpeakeasi]

Also, buying back grimoire is 750cp a piece. By the time you get to level 12 you'd have at least 20 of them. that's 15k copper pieces. And that's *even if* you spend possibly hours visiting merchants buying them back.

 

This design needs to change. I'm not using the magic word because you're punishing players for playing early. It's not our fault that retraining, a feature that many modern RPGs have at launch, arrived months late.

 

I just went from not being able to wait for White March to wanting to give up on the game altogether. Thanks for helping me save my $25 Obsidian.

Edited August 18, 2015 by LaSpeakeasi

[Kriber22]

Seems a little unfair that Wizards should have to pay much more to respec than every other class.

[joshua43214]

Also, buying back grimoire is 750cp a piece. By the time you get to level 12 you'd have at least 20 of them. that's 15k copper pieces. And that's *even if* you spend possibly hours visiting merchants buying them back.

 

This design needs to change. I'm not using the magic word because you're punishing players for playing early. It's not our fault that retraining, a feature that many modern RPGs have at launch, arrived months late.

 

I just went from not being able to wait for White March to wanting to give up on the game altogether. Thanks for helping me save my $25 Obsidian.

 

You are dead right about the core issue here. Even if you respect him ~lvl 5 it will cost probably >1000 copper to respec and get the good spells that he is missing back.

 

On the other hand, you might decide you do not want all those spells back.

 

 

Keep in mind you are playing a beta. You should net get upset over things not working properly or fairly in a beta. Finding issues like this is the whole concept behind a beta.

Solving the problem should be just a bit of code that puts the spells you have learned into the selection tree and credit to select the extra spells at each level.

 

Take a breath and relax. If the issue is still present when 2.0 goes live and it is not on the list of planned fixes, then you can feel free to pack up your marbles and leave. We are all playing around problems in this beta.

[LaSpeakeasi]

No further response from devs? It seems the user reaction is overwhelmingly on the side of NOT resetting grimoire. Shouldn't that at least warrant a reconsideration on the decision?

[Aarik D]

Hey everyone,

 

Just wanted to add some clarification on the matter. Retraining does not wipe your grimoires, whatever spells are in your wizard books stay as they are. What does get wiped is the spells the wizard has learned. So if you want to keep all the spells you have learned, you can just have multiple grimoires and put all the spells you have learned into them and relearn them after you retrain. 

 

I will add a suggestion that unique spells that you cannot learn from leveling up should be retained when you respec, and also a feature that asks the user if they want to relearn the spells they have known for additional copper. 

 

Thank you all for your support and patience in this matter. 

[Kriber22]

Wait, what? There are unique spells?

[LaSpeakeasi]

Hey everyone,

 

Just wanted to add some clarification on the matter. Retraining does not wipe your grimoires, whatever spells are in your wizard books stay as they are. What does get wiped is the spells the wizard has learned. So if you want to keep all the spells you have learned, you can just have multiple grimoires and put all the spells you have learned into them and relearn them after you retrain. 

 

I will add a suggestion that unique spells that you cannot learn from leveling up should be retained when you respec, and also a feature that asks the user if they want to relearn the spells they have known for additional copper. 

 

Thank you all for your support and patience in this matter. 

No. It won't work because:

 

1) The entire process is redundant. There is no reason whatsoever to unlearn *any* spell when retraining a wizard. They aren't like ciphers or chanters where you must unlearn a spell to gain a new one. Wizards have no limitations. The only choice when it comes to spells learned is "all of them". Why do you keep insisting on keeping a feature that serves no purpose and doesn't make sense?

 

2) You can't buy an empty grimoire. The only way to acquire more is kill enemy wizards. But if you have been selling your grimoires then you have to buy them back at 750cp a piece. If you are a completionist and have learned every spell there is, that's thousands of additional coppers, not to mention a poor way of archiving and categorizing spells. It's not like you can name your grimoires.

 

3) Again with the "additional copper". Wizards already have to pay extra when they learn spells. Now they must pay extra to retrain too? Why charge copper to learn in the 1st place if it wasn't permanent? That makes retraining wizards too expensive to be viable compared to other classes.

 

Just leave the spells completely alone when retraining. Just don't activate that particular tab at all. Why do you insist on keeping that feature in? What's the reason behind it?

Edited August 22, 2015 by LaSpeakeasi

[fced]

Hello, 

I tried just now, and two years later, resetting the wizard reset all the spells learned (but don't reset the grimoire)... 

It mean it is very expensive to reset and re-learn all the spells for a wizard, more than any other classes...
Not very fair...

So if you haven't several grimoire with all your learned spells in them, don't reset or you will lose everything, but at least it is possible to re-set the attributes..

[daveyeisley]

I would like to add my voice to this.

 

The base cost of re-training is the same for all classes, as it should be.

 

For Wizards, their primary class feature is spellcasting. The versatility of their repertoire of spells learned determines a great deal of their functional capabilities, and they have to *pay additional money* to expand this beyond what they gain at levelup (because levelups provide only a *fraction* of the total available spells for the class).

 

Compare that to Priests as an example. They Level up, they don't have to carry a Grimoire, they don't have to pay extra, and they get *all* the spells available each time they gain access to a new spell level.

 

If the Wizard character pays the same amount to retrain like everyone else, how can it logically follow or be even remotely fair that they would need to hang on to Grimoires for the entire game that they *already paid* to extract the spells from - and further have to pay *all over again* for the spells they already learned from those Grimoires.

 

I suspect this was an oversight, not a design choice - because as a design choice it is nearly indefensible.

[Boeroer]

Because else you can get all spells just by retraining. Write them in a grimoire, retrain, write in a grimoire, retrain until you have them all. At least with the additional money this hurts a bit more and you can't abuse it in the early game.

 

Also, the upside of wizards' grimoires compared to priests' and druids' spell catalogue is that wizards have WAY more spell choice. The downside is the use of a grimoire.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Boeroer

[daveyeisley]

Because else you can get all spells just by retraining. Write them in a grimoire, retrain, write in a grimoire, retrain until you have them all. At least with the additional money this hurts a bit more and you can't abuse it in the early game.

 

Also, the upside of wizards' grimoires compared to priests' and druids' spell catalogue is that wizards have WAY more spell choice. The downside is the use of a grimoire.

 

That is not what is being proposed. The spells gained at level up currently are and should be lost during retraining, because they were *free* (and can be regained during the train without issue). The spells that were paid for should be retained because they were *purchased*.

 

Also, considering it a bit, I think the potential for 'abuse' early game is so limited as to be nearly inconsequential. You only get 1 active grimoire, swapping takes over 10 seconds before you can cast, and you get 4 total spell slots per level - and your level restricts access to higher level spell slots. Maybe you can help me see a truly 'abusive' or 'exploitative' behavior pattern that would be available if one was able to pay to retrain a bunch of times to learn all the spells at low level? 

 

I am not advocating for this to be possible, I just can't see any significant way to benefit from it in a practical sense.... if you retrain at low level, sure its fairly cheap.... so you could conceivably do it multiple times... but you still only have access to low level spells.... so what if you eventually learn them all? OK, maybe it would be comparatively cheaper than learning them from captured grimoires.... sure, so that might be the 'exploit' that the design was chosen to prevent....  other than saving some money, how else would it effectively empower the character beyond what they would otherwise be capable of?

 

And on the flip side, the trade-off to prevent Wizards from being able to cheaply learn all the spells is that they have to hang onto captured grimoires for the whole game, and pay the cost to re-purchase every spell they already paid for every single time they want to re-train in addition to the cost of the retrain itself, which no other class has to deal with. Sounds legit

 

 

p.s. I woudn't mind grimoires if there was some mechanical benefit to them - ie. different grimoires can give certain bonuses, etc. Rare ones give really sweet bonuses, etc.

Edited February 14, 2018 by daveyeisley