Defender 2.0 beta nerf

[narkhen]

 

 

 

When I checked yesterday after installing patch 2.0 and the white march, defender + wary defender gave +5 deflection, and cautious attack got downgraded to +8 deflection, which means a difference of 3 points in deflection. Calm down everybody.

 

Also, veterans recovery is 1.5 endurance / 3 seconds, which means 0.5 /s on average, while the chanters passive healing yields 0.8/s alone and can be enhanced by another 0.5 for everyone surrounding you.

 

It's really not that unbalanced as all of you think.

Dude, I don't know what release you're playing, but in the 2.0 I'm playing defender definitely lowers your deflection by 5 points, check again.

Also, veteran recovery is rounded up to 2 with just a bit of might, and has no duration, while now constant recovery, which heals for 3 with might <= 19 (IIRC) only lasts 90 seconds now, so it's basically a weaker and less versatile form of lay on hands.

That's a huge blow to the fighter's survability, and, really, they don't have that much going for them aside from survability.

In my game it definitely gives deflection +5 not -5. Maybe they fixed it since you last checked?

 

definitely happy it still gives some def. bonus, makes fighters somewhat useful defensively.

Is that a new game you are playing in?

 

On my new fresh game installed yesterday, 2.0 with white march, defender gives -5 on my game, are you sure you are playing on 2.0 ?  , if you want screenshot, I can give to you.

[iridescence]

 

 

 

When I checked yesterday after installing patch 2.0 and the white march, defender + wary defender gave +5 deflection, and cautious attack got downgraded to +8 deflection, which means a difference of 3 points in deflection. Calm down everybody.

 

Also, veterans recovery is 1.5 endurance / 3 seconds, which means 0.5 /s on average, while the chanters passive healing yields 0.8/s alone and can be enhanced by another 0.5 for everyone surrounding you.

 

It's really not that unbalanced as all of you think.

Dude, I don't know what release you're playing, but in the 2.0 I'm playing defender definitely lowers your deflection by 5 points, check again.

Also, veteran recovery is rounded up to 2 with just a bit of might, and has no duration, while now constant recovery, which heals for 3 with might <= 19 (IIRC) only lasts 90 seconds now, so it's basically a weaker and less versatile form of lay on hands.

That's a huge blow to the fighter's survability, and, really, they don't have that much going for them aside from survability.

In my game it definitely gives deflection +5 not -5. Maybe they fixed it since you last checked?

 

definitely happy it still gives some def. bonus, makes fighters somewhat useful defensively.

Is that a new game you are playing in?

 

No, it's Eder in  my save game which started  before  the patch. To make sure I turned off his defender ability  and his deflection did in fact go down by 5 so it is increasing deflection but just not as much as before.

Edited August 26, 2015 by iridescence

[View619]

Confirming that my 2.0 game includes Defender at -5 deflection, Wary Defender at +5 for all defenses except deflection. Sounds like a bug in your copy.

[iridescence]

Confirming that my 2.0 game includes Defender at -5 deflection, Wary Defender at +5 for all defenses except deflection. Sounds like a bug in your copy.

Yeah when I restarted it it is not giving him the bonus anymore. Must be a bug. Sucks,  Eder is my fav companion so far but I doubt I'll be using him much anymore because of this. Maybe deflection bonuses were a little overdone before but this seems like overkill in the other direction and makes the fighter class pretty useless.

[MunoValente]

I started a new game today and Eder is at level 4 and seems pretty good.  So far I've had him take knockdown, two handed style, confident aim and savage attack, and he's killing things good, but he's still pretty tough from the bump to CON and him not losing much from the change to PER.  I'll probably have him take Soldier specialization and focus next.

 

I have another fighter that is using defender, along with knockdown, two weapon style and ruffian, with dual sabres and fairly high CON and she seems to be doing pretty well too.  Planning to take the rogue multi-class, the weapon specializations and probably savage attack, so I can dish a lot damage to knocked enemies and enemies that try to disengage.

 

At least at lower the levels the bump to CON seems to make a real difference in it's usefulness.

Edited August 27, 2015 by MunoValente

[Gorionsson]

 

Confirming that my 2.0 game includes Defender at -5 deflection, Wary Defender at +5 for all defenses except deflection. Sounds like a bug in your copy.

Yeah when I restarted it it is not giving him the bonus anymore. Must be a bug. Sucks,  Eder is my fav companion so far but I doubt I'll be using him much anymore because of this. Maybe deflection bonuses were a little overdone before but this seems like overkill in the other direction and makes the fighter class pretty useless.

 

Eder is an excellent dps offtank, if you build him that way. Just sayin'.

His stats are balanced. Best of the original companions statwise, IMO. 

[Elric Galad]

Get a monk and you'll understand what is an excellent DPS offtank.

 

Sorry but that's not that fighters are bad or not playable, they are just not as good in their tradional roles as either Paladin (tank) or Monk (off-tank DPS).

[gkathellar]

Get a monk and you'll understand what is an excellent DPS offtank.

 

Sorry but that's not that fighters are bad or not playable, they are just not as good in their tradional roles as either Paladin (tank) or Monk (off-tank DPS).

 

Fighters can make for exceptionally good offtank DPS if you build them right. Monks deal more damage overall and can survive burst damage better, but a fighter who's specced for two-handed weapons or double sabers deals more damage per-hit and survives constant ping damage better. Monks get to spam Torment's Reach and have better defenses overall, fighters get to be boring but reliable.

[Gorionsson]

Get a monk and you'll understand what is an excellent DPS offtank.

 

Sorry but that's not that fighters are bad or not playable, they are just not as good in their tradional roles as either Paladin (tank) or Monk (off-tank DPS).

Fighters in POE have always been better suited as offtank dps, imo. (And not all people like monks )).

This is a question about playstyle, for some.

Also, people now have a reason to take Pallegina along.(Very few did before). I think they want all companions to be somewhat useful, you know?

It is important to remember that changes are made for several different reasons.

I just don't understand why they have to be the best at everything.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Gorionsson

[Njall]

 

 

...Fighters can make for exceptionally good offtank DPS if you build them right. Monks deal more damage overall and can survive burst damage better, but a fighter who's specced for two-handed weapons or double sabers deals more damage per-hit and survives constant ping damage better. Monks get to spam Torment's Reach and have better defenses overall, fighters get to be boring but reliable.

 

TBH, I'm not really sure that's the case anymore ( but, admittedly, I haven't seen the 13th level fighter class ability yet ), at higher levels. 

Take a monk, equip him with heavy armor, give him the same weapons you'd give the fighter, then iron wheel and turning wheel, and, if you deem it necessary, duality of mortal presence, cautious attack, veteran recovery.

Yeah, that's quite a bit of abilities and talents, but the fighter will also have to grab at least two or three in order to keep up with the monk's damage, and doesn't really have any good defensive picks, aside from cautious attack and superior deflection, and, maybe, unbroken and unbending.

Let's say that you accrue 10 wounds and just let the monk auto-attack ( just like you would with your fighter ): turning wheel gives him +50% damage to the fighter's +25% ( and only costs a single class ability instead of a class ability + a talent ), and iron wheel grants him +10 DR, with which the fighter just can't catch up, so the monk's way ahead in terms of damage and DR. Yeah, the monk doesn't start the fight with 10 wounds, but it doesn't need so much time to reach them ( around 80 damage taken with lesser wounds ) ,and, with that +10 DR, he's really hard to take down.

Same HP, same accuracy, the monk has more health and slightly higher secondary defenses ( +8 due to duality ), slightly lower self healing, but can deal way more AoE damage (rooting pain), on-demand CC and can also be more mobile if you invest in Flagellant Path.

To me, it seems the monk is way ahead, what am I missing?

 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Njall

[Killyox]

Tbh I don't care one bit about Defender and Wary Defender

 

 

 

When I checked yesterday after installing patch 2.0 and the white march, defender + wary defender gave +5 deflection, and cautious attack got downgraded to +8 deflection, which means a difference of 3 points in deflection. Calm down everybody.

 

Also, veterans recovery is 1.5 endurance / 3 seconds, which means 0.5 /s on average, while the chanters passive healing yields 0.8/s alone and can be enhanced by another 0.5 for everyone surrounding you.

 

It's really not that unbalanced as all of you think.

Dude, I don't know what release you're playing, but in the 2.0 I'm playing defender definitely lowers your deflection by 5 points, check again. 

Also, veteran recovery is rounded up to 2 with just a bit of might, and has no duration, while now constant recovery, which heals for 3 with might <= 19 (IIRC) only lasts 90 seconds now, so it's basically a weaker and less versatile form of lay on hands. 

That's a huge blow to the fighter's survability, and, really, they don't have that much going for them aside from survability.

 

 

Give fighter Lore + Survival, Moonwell Scrolls + Healing Over Time potions (more heal/dur with survi). You are durable, can heal, can sling some spells. Your health will more likely run out before your endurance so you can always have bandage for that too

Edited August 27, 2015 by Killyox

[Elric Galad]

Once more, the debate is not about fighter being viable or not. It us about fighter being Underpowered or not, especially when compared to monk.

 

All you describe above, a monk can do too. So yes, fighter are currently inferior to monks.

 

They have a couple of interesting abilities, but nothing gamechanching enough to justify their presence in a party, outside of roleplay or playstyle reason.

[View619]

Well, I can confirm that enemies do disengage more often now so the additional engagement slot alone is (finally) useful. I've gotten disengagement strikes out of it a few times, just finished Caed Nua after starting a new game. So, it comes down to whether you prioritize engagement slots vs deflection now.

 

In the old versions, engagement didn't matter since the AI was pretty dumb. Now, it's more important as units will not mindlessly dogpile your tank. If you want to maximize deflection then Defender isn't worth taking. However, even though I can understand why Wary Defender was modified (avoids overlap with the defensive talents focusing on will, reflex and fortitude) I wouldn't take it.

Edited August 27, 2015 by View619

[wanderon]

:shrugs:

 

I'm not much into the number crunching myself but one good thing about the nerf for me is it encouraged me to try something else (which I had never done before for Eder who is the only fighter I have ever had in a party.)

[MunoValente]

Once more, the debate is not about fighter being viable or not. It us about fighter being Underpowered or not, especially when compared to monk.

 

 

 

Some saying they can't use Eder again because he's useless is comment about viability.

 

I think people are trivializing getting 10 wounds quickly.  My experience with monks is if they get 10 wounds quickly they die not long after, because it usually means they are swarmed rather my formation holding up.  I've also had plenty of the battles where the enemy largely ignores my monk for whatever reason.

[MunoValente]

Well, I can confirm that enemies do disengage more often now so the additional engagement slot alone is (finally) useful. I've gotten disengagement strikes out of it a few times, just finished Caed Nua after starting a new game. So, it comes down to whether you prioritize engagement slots vs deflection now.

 

In the old versions, engagement didn't matter since the AI was pretty dumb. Now, it's more important as units will not mindlessly dogpile your tank. If you want to maximize deflection then Defender isn't worth taking. However, even though I can understand why Wary Defender was modified (avoids overlap with the defensive talents focusing on will, reflex and fortitude) I wouldn't take it.

 

Yeah this thread is an interesting contrast to the other one where people are complaining about the enemy disengaging too much and their disengagement attacks being too weak.  That thread shows how engagements combined with strong melee attacks have become more useful.

[Elric Galad]

Yes, and to be honest, even if I feel fighter UP now, the +10 accuracy gain in defender modes and fighter relying less on this modal opens a lot of new possibilities.

 

The evolution goes in the right direction.

 

It is just that current step on the stairs of perfect design is a bit harsh for fighters.

[gkathellar]

Well, I can confirm that enemies do disengage more often now so the additional engagement slot alone is (finally) useful. I've gotten disengagement strikes out of it a few times, just finished Caed Nua after starting a new game. So, it comes down to whether you prioritize engagement slots vs deflection now.

 

That arguably makes it worse. If enemies avoid taking disengagement attacks, then at least Defender lets you pin them down. On the other hand, if they break engagement all the time, then the ability doesn't even let you divert fire from your squishies, and all it's granting you are occasional piddling shots with an accuracy penalty.

 

 

I adjusted Defender and Wary Defender down because they were contributing to close-to-unassailable Deflection values on fighters.

That'd make sense if those values hadn't already dropped by 10+ points from the change to perception.

 

A correction: since enemies now also gain perception bonuses to accuracy, this claim is even less grounded in reality than I had realized.

 

 

...Fighters can make for exceptionally good offtank DPS if you build them right. Monks deal more damage overall and can survive burst damage better, but a fighter who's specced for two-handed weapons or double sabers deals more damage per-hit and survives constant ping damage better. Monks get to spam Torment's Reach and have better defenses overall, fighters get to be boring but reliable.

 

TBH, I'm not really sure that's the case anymore ( but, admittedly, I haven't seen the 13th level fighter class ability yet ), at higher levels. 

Take a monk, equip him with heavy armor, give him the same weapons you'd give the fighter, then iron wheel and turning wheel, and, if you deem it necessary, duality of mortal presence, cautious attack, veteran recovery.

Yeah, that's quite a bit of abilities and talents, but the fighter will also have to grab at least two or three in order to keep up with the monk's damage, and doesn't really have any good defensive picks, aside from cautious attack and superior deflection, and, maybe, unbroken and unbending.

Let's say that you accrue 10 wounds and just let the monk auto-attack ( just like you would with your fighter ): turning wheel gives him +50% damage to the fighter's +25% ( and only costs a single class ability instead of a class ability + a talent ), and iron wheel grants him +10 DR, with which the fighter just can't catch up, so the monk's way ahead in terms of damage and DR. Yeah, the monk doesn't start the fight with 10 wounds, but it doesn't need so much time to reach them ( around 80 damage taken with lesser wounds ) ,and, with that +10 DR, he's really hard to take down.

Same HP, same accuracy, the monk has more health and slightly higher secondary defenses ( +8 due to duality ), slightly lower self healing, but can deal way more AoE damage (rooting pain), on-demand CC and can also be more mobile if you invest in Flagellant Path.

To me, it seems the monk is way ahead, what am I missing?

 

 

I'm not sure you're missing anything, actually. That's a reasonably solid argument, and I think White March has done a lot more for monks than fighters at high levels, so ... there's, uh, Knockdown? Knockdown is pretty okay.

 

... nope, I got nothin'.

Edited August 27, 2015 by gkathellar

[Torm51]

 

Well, I can confirm that enemies do disengage more often now so the additional engagement slot alone is (finally) useful. I've gotten disengagement strikes out of it a few times, just finished Caed Nua after starting a new game. So, it comes down to whether you prioritize engagement slots vs deflection now.

 

That arguably makes it worse. If enemies avoid taking disengagement attacks, then at least Defender lets you pin them down. On the other hand, if they break engagement all the time, then the ability doesn't even let you divert fire from your squishies, and all it's granting you are occasional piddling shots with an accuracy penalty.

 

That's just not my experience on 2.0.  The AI does not want to take disengagement attacks even if yours are terrible so engaging does (in my experience) effectively pin them.  I also I use my tank the way I would if I had a tank in a pvp scenario in an MMO (I wouldn't spec that way for pvp but its a different story lol) I make the AI think my tank has low deflection by charging them with a 2hander or 1hander.  At that point my tank is the first one in and swarmed.  I take a high base weapon and hit in the mid 20's and some stronger attacks if I crit.  Bad guys will definitely stay in place.  Once I am swamped in bad guys I switch to my shield and they are for the most locked down and my dps has already done its work. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Torm51

[View619]

Yeah, enemies don't just disengage as soon as you switch to sword and shield or on a whim. The cases when enemies disengaged versus me were very intelligent, minus one Rogue who thought he could rush in unopposed and died from disengagement attacks. From what I've noticed, enemies don't want to take disengagement attacks if the added accuracy plus your base accuracy are likely to result in a hit. It's when your tank's accuracy/damage potential is so low that, even with the added accuracy bonus, the strike is unlikely to hit that enemies seem willing to ignore it.

 

I'll need to try some "pure defensive" tank set-ups to see if this is really true but I haven't run into a situation yet where enemies just ignore Eder, with a shield equipped, just to attack my back-line. Maybe it's a combination of individual stealth on the spell casters, Defender, positioning and intercepting with another unit that makes it manageable? For the record, disengagement isn't just to rush your squishies. I've seen units disengage to assist another unit (Paladins running to heal mages, Fighter running to knock-down a melee unit who is devastating the Priest, etc). 

Edited August 27, 2015 by View619

[Torm51]

Also If you bring a Paladin with Zealous Charge he and the fighter can charge around the battlefield and pick up disengaged enemies who will reengage them.  With even OK Deflection the aura will give you enough Defense and you can safely ignore disengagement attacks.  Disengagement attacks for My Paladin tank is like shooting at an Abrams tank with an Ak-47 its a joke.  Its my new favorite Aura. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Torm51

[View619]

Also If you bring a Paladin with Zealous Charge he and the fighter can charge around the battlefield and pick up disengaged enemies who will reengage them.  With even OK Deflection the aura will give you enough Defense and you can safely ignore disengagement attacks.  Its my new favorite Aura. 

 

I'm actually thinking about stacking that with Cape of Disengagement. Hoping that there's no suppression.

[Torm51]

Me too still have not found one for some reason lol

Edited August 27, 2015 by Torm51

[Njall]

 

I adjusted Defender and Wary Defender down because they were contributing to close-to-unassailable Deflection values on fighters.

 

That'd make sense if those values hadn't already dropped by 10+ points from the change to perception.

 

Nah, it still wouldn't, IMHO. Defender put fighters a whoopin' 5 points ahead of high deflection classes, except for Paladins (6 points ahead of fighters ) and ciphers with borrowed instinct up.

5 points at the cost of a class ability slot and a talent.

5 points aren't even noticeable when your defense is in the ballpark of 150.

Also, this means that the other, un-nerfed classes could (and some of them still can) approach those values.

What makes me unconfortable about this nerf is that they completely missed the point that the bulk of the fighter's unhittability came from general talents, equipment and consumables that are available to pretty much anyone else, and, instead of adjusting the deflection and dr values on equipment, if they deemed them too high, the devs knee-jerked and crippled a class ability because it did exactly what a class ability should do, make a class better at its supposed job ( and, really, a +5 bonus in PoE is pretty much the same as +1 AC in D&D... hardly game breaking ).

Edited August 28, 2015 by Njall

[Cutlass Jack]

Defender could inflict an Accuracy malus to offset the additional Engagement, but some players might view that as worse than a Deflection penalty.  I do not have a strong attachment to Deflection being the drawback on Defender, and we will be continuing to tune the game after 2.0 and The White March, so I don't have a problem with shifting the drawback to a different stat.

 

Put the Deflection back and shift it to Accuracy. Defender should make you better at defending. If I wanted to be better offensively I'd pick another modal.