Why did Obsidian despise light-side Revan?

[Gromnir]

 

you are no longer arguing what you claimed to be arguing.

 

*shrug*

 

ps we only responded 'cause you were getting off-topic in your own thread.

 

The hell are you on about now? 

 

I was responding to 213374U's point about Kreia, which was related to the main topic. 

 

The more I read from you, the more you weird me out. I'm done responding to you after this.

 

you are stopping?  thank goodness.

 

regardless, you started off-topic in your reply to Gromnir, not numbers.

 

"Did you save the day in the original? Doesn't matter here. The Jedi all but die out in FIVE years. And suddenly we have multiple Sith Lords running about that come out of thin air."

 

again, such stuff does not in any way show a ls/ds preference by the obsidian writers.

 

sudden feeling the need to revisit a dead issue from a game released in 2004 & complete mischaracterizing your concern? now that is weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Metopholus]

 

 

you are no longer arguing what you claimed to be arguing.

 

*shrug*

 

ps we only responded 'cause you were getting off-topic in your own thread.

 

 

The hell are you on about now? 

 

I was responding to 213374U's point about Kreia, which was related to the main topic. 

 

The more I read from you, the more you weird me out. I'm done responding to you after this.

you are stopping?  thank goodness.

 

regardless, you started off-topic in your reply to Gromnir, not numbers.

 

"Did you save the day in the original? Doesn't matter here. The Jedi all but die out in FIVE years. And suddenly we have multiple Sith Lords running about that come out of thin air."

 

again, such stuff does not in any way show a ls/ds preference by the obsidian writers.

 

sudden feeling the need to revisit a dead issue from a game released in 2004 & complete mischaracterizing your concern? now that is weird.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Are you a foreign language person? I swear I need a translator to understand your lingo.

 

I've read your earlier posts. You said it was a dead subject. And that you can't explain things better than you already have.....yet you keep responding.... And now you're quoting one of my responses. Why? If it's so old shouldn't you be beyond this by now?

 

 

I stand by my point as I'm sure you do yours. Nothing I did in the original mattered in TSL. How does the light side ending lead into the sequal smoothly? It doesn't for ME. I'm not the center of the universe so maybe I don't matter.

[Sannom]

What exact events led to the dark side being so prominent as to render a light side Revan's choices meaningless?

The death of nearly all Jedi on Katarr, that's what. It's the core of the Triumvirate's belief, that without Jedi and even with just a few Sith, the Sith win and the Galaxy is theirs. And since they didn't fight like Malak and stuck to the shadows, striking then disappearing, it's not unbelievable that they were a big problem for a Jedi Order weakened by the war and reduced to something like a hundred members. And then, of course, they didn't know anything about Nihilus and the kind of devastation he could bring, especially on a world like Katarr, which was populated almost entirely by Force Sensitives.

 

You say that the state of affairs in K2 is hard to explain with a LS ending in the first game. It's actually harder to explain if Revan went DS: Malak had already brought the Republic to its knees, and by the end Revan has regained command of the Star Forge and handed the Republic a crushing defeat. Why didn't he finish the job?

 

 

Pretty much this. DS!Revan feels like the one who got the short end of the stick, not LS!Revan.

 

Sure, Revan ended Malak's threat in the LS ending to KOTOR 1, but the war still ravaged countless worlds, the Republic isn't in great shape and the new Sith threat that appears after Malak does not fight like him at all. They strike from the shadows and only focus on the Jedi, believing that with them gone, the Sith win. It's no wonder that those very efficient attacks, following so soon after the war, brought the Jedi and the Republic to its knees.

 

But DS!Revan? He had the Star Forge and probably Bastilla with him, he had weapons and men, and yet he fails to do anything with it? Not to mention that the Sith are believed to be wiped out despite their overwhelming victory!

 

Are you a foreign language person? I swear I need a translator to understand your lingo.

It's always funny when people get introduced to Gromnir and don't get it .

[Raithe]

Okay, let me throw this in..

 

As I recall, part of the story of Kotor 2 does throw in that Revan starting recovering old memories of what he had  encountered during that period of wandering outside of the Republic, chasing down the remnants of the Mandalorians - this is pretty much regardless of whether LS or DS - and as such, he carefully removed himself from his associates and went travelling on his lonesome to discover the truth.

 

If he was LS, he did this to secure the safety of his friends and allies while he tried to discover what basically scared the bejeesuz out of him. If he was DS, he did it so he would understand the secret, and not let anyone else use the knowledge to harm him or destroy his control.  So we don't really get a clear time frame for how long after KOTOR I events he did the wandering off. That left a few years during which the Republic was still recovering, and the general "Sith" that had been under Revan and Malak still exist in some format. That allows plenty of fragmentation, groups struggling to take control, and such like.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Are you a foreign language person? I swear I need a translator to understand your lingo.

It's always funny when people get introduced to Gromnir and don't get it .

 

*shrug*

 

am admitted perplexed by folks.  oh sure. when stymied they retreat to taking a stab at the posting style, but meto and the genesis poster is as difficult to understand.

 

they claim they comprehend the premise o' a force that robs the galaxy o' meaningful choice, but act as if their ls choices being nullified is some kinda personal vendetta 'gainst their ls choices.  

 

oh, and newsflash: a galaxy wide sith threat to the galaxy, which in the kotor/star wars universe is gonna be the threat, necessarily requires a fracturing o' the New Hope style ls ending o' the first kotor. duh.

 

and yes,  we used meto quote 'cause the genesis poster used it in a response to us to explain his pov.  could just as easily have used the following:

 

"The writers took Revan's victory over Malak and the Star Forge, took the Republic and Jedi's victory over the Sith... and made it all irrelevant. The writers created three new Sith, retroactively, to cancel out any sense of accomplishment from having played a LS Revan in the previous game."

 

is previous to a number response in this thread and shows the same ridiculous lack o' awareness.

 

*shrug*

 

is 2015.  kotor 2 were 2004. Gromnir were posting this way as far back as 1999.  meto not get the irony.  his/her complaint 'bout our posting style mirrors the misapprehension about kotor 2 as it highlights a fundamental lack o' comprehension that has tediously been repeated ad nauseum for over a decade. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited June 13, 2015 by Gromnir

[FlintlockJazz]

You know, reading all this makes me wonder: was perhaps the writers were using the Force as an analog to player choice in games?  You know, how no matter which choice you take you usually always end up in the same situation in the end, with perhaps just different nametags or colours for your enemies?  Like how you always end up fighting Rachni in Mass Effect 3 regardless of the choice you make with the queen in the first one?  That no matter what choices you make in the first game, they will end up meaningless in the second and made the point by doing the same in KotOR 2 regarding choices made in 1?  The Force has always been a plot device used by the writers to get things to happen as they wanted when the character would otherwise not do it, a plot hammer to ensure railroading.  Maybe Kreia's fight against the Force is meant to be about author fiat overriding what a character would choose to do, trying to fight against railroading?

Edited June 15, 2015 by FlintlockJazz

[Rosveen]

It's always funny when people get introduced to Gromnir and don't get it .

Out of curiosity, is there a reason why he writes like this or is it just an interesting variation of "I'm a special snowflake"? I'm not asking him directly because I fear I may misinterpret the answer.

[Rosbjerg]

Have you played Throne of Bhaal? Remember Gromnir Il-Khan?

[Rosveen]

Actually, no, I didn't remember him off-hand. Now that you mention him... His style wasn't anywhere near as frustrating as the forum Gromnir's. I'm pretty sure the text included capital letters. Oh well, it's still a better roleplay than a pompous bigoted Altmer I once experienced.

[FlintlockJazz]

Actually, no, I didn't remember him off-hand. Now that you mention him... His style wasn't anywhere near as frustrating as the forum Gromnir's. I'm pretty sure the text included capital letters. Oh well, it's still a better roleplay than a pompous bigoted Altmer I once experienced.

The game Gromnir was based on this poster, apparently he and some other forum-goers at the time were included in the game.  Always wondered whether he and the others gave consent for this and what they thought of it.

[PrimeJunta]

Huh, doesn't everyone despise light-side Revan, that turncoat?

[Nonek]

Oh, I always thought that the gentleman was imitating a pirate, ala Long John Silver. Apologies. I don't remember how the Half Orc in Saradush spoke, it's been a long time since last played and I didn't particularly reckon much to the expansion.

[Althernai]

The game Gromnir was based on this poster, apparently he and some other forum-goers at the time were included in the game.  Always wondered whether he and the others gave consent for this and what they thought of it.

I'm pretty sure they wanted to be included (was there a contest? I don't remember any more), though not everybody liked the specific manner in which they were portrayed.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

The game Gromnir was based on this poster, apparently he and some other forum-goers at the time were included in the game.  Always wondered whether he and the others gave consent for this and what they thought of it.

I'm pretty sure they wanted to be included (was there a contest? I don't remember any more), though not everybody liked the specific manner in which they were portrayed.

 

I dunno, only read it on some wiki somewhere, though I do recall seeing Gromnir posting about it not that long ago on these boards saying that there was at least one person who didn't like their portrayal (she was apparently a Coran fan-girl and didn't like them taking the mick in the game).  Meant to use that post he made about it as a chance to ask further questions like that and how he and the others felt about it all but never got round to it.

[Rosveen]

 

Actually, no, I didn't remember him off-hand. Now that you mention him... His style wasn't anywhere near as frustrating as the forum Gromnir's. I'm pretty sure the text included capital letters. Oh well, it's still a better roleplay than a pompous bigoted Altmer I once experienced.

The game Gromnir was based on this poster, apparently he and some other forum-goers at the time were included in the game.  Always wondered whether he and the others gave consent for this and what they thought of it.

 

This changes everything! Now I'm disappointed in-game Gromnir wasn't more Gromnir-y. But still wondering "what the actual hell?" I don't think that feeling is ever going to go away.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Rosveen

[Gromnir]

*sigh*

 

this is long time ago kinda stuff, so you get extreme abbreviated version.  'bout contemporaneous with totsc release, Gromnir begins posting as Gromnir.  first post in this manner were an observation that our bg character o' the same name were not benefiting from "mag. def. adj." for high wisdom as described in the bg manual.  our character were a vanilla fighter that, thanks to the vagaries o' chance and poor judgement to not re-roll, were having high wisdom and low intelligence.  other stats were utter forgettable.  in any event, having recognized that the magic defence adjustment for high wisdom characters as displayed in both the bg and totsc manuals were not being applied to game characters, we post and kinda ham-up the low intelligence angle o' our cheated character, and add lurid and ridiculous threats o' the smash and bash type if bioware did not fix magical defence adjustment... worse, we would keep posting as Gromnir til they fixed mag. def. adj.

 

half the board were mortified at the disrespectful manner o' our post.  maybe 20% o' boardies laughed.  no surprise at breakdown o' replies save that the biowarians were near complete in the 20% who saw the post as humorous.  the bg boards back in those days were a bit clannish and outsiders who shared opinions contrary to accepted groupthink were tending to be treated... poorly.  am admitting we were relieved to see that the developers were not part o' the problem.

 

bio/black isle never did fix magical defence adjustment. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

 

 

 

The game Gromnir was based on this poster, apparently he and some other forum-goers at the time were included in the game. Always wondered whether he and the others gave consent for this and what they thought of it.

I'm pretty sure they wanted to be included (was there a contest? I don't remember any more), though not everybody liked the specific manner in which they were portrayed.

I dunno, only read it on some wiki somewhere, though I do recall seeing Gromnir posting about it not that long ago on these boards saying that there was at least one person who didn't like their portrayal (she was apparently a Coran fan-girl and didn't like them taking the mick in the game). Meant to use that post he made about it as a chance to ask further questions like that and how he and the others felt about it all but never got round to it.

Lanfear just didn't have a sense of humor.

[Leferd]

Gromnir, I vaguely remember either during TotSC or BG2 development, you stated that you had your secretary monitor the BI Boards and tell you when someone responded for you to reply. Please tell me I am remembering that right.

 

That is absolutely gangsta.

 

 

NSFW - Parental advisory.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Leferd

[Bartimaeus]

*sigh*

 

this is long time ago kinda stuff, so you get extreme abbreviated version.  'bout contemporaneous with totsc release, Gromnir begins posting as Gromnir.  first post in this manner were an observation that our bg character o' the same name were not benefiting from "mag. def. adj." for high wisdom as described in the bg manual.  our character were a vanilla fighter that, thanks to the vagaries o' chance and poor judgement to not re-roll, were having high wisdom and low intelligence.  other stats were utter forgettable.  in any event, having recognized that the magic defence adjustment for high wisdom characters as displayed in both the bg and totsc manuals were not being applied to game characters, we post and kinda ham-up the low intelligence angle o' our cheated character, and add lurid and ridiculous threats o' the smash and bash type if bioware did not fix magical defence adjustment... worse, we would keep posting as Gromnir til they fixed mag. def. adj.

 

half the board were mortified at the disrespectful manner o' our post.  maybe 20% o' boardies laughed.  no surprise at breakdown o' replies save that the biowarians were near complete in the 20% who saw the post as humorous.  the bg boards back in those days were a bit clannish and outsiders who shared opinions contrary to accepted groupthink were tending to be treated... poorly.  am admitting we were relieved to see that the developers were not part o' the problem.

 

bio/black isle never did fix magical defence adjustment. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I've always wondered about your typing style and why you were always so true to it...not even oby could be so perfectly consistent. This is also about the best possible explanation I can imagine for it. I admire your dedication and general person even more now.

[Nonek]

Wasn't it Obsidian whom expanded on Revan's strategy, in that his war on the Republic was only targeting non essential structural assets, so that once he had conquered them he could quickly turn the Republic into a war ready state to be used against the true Sith? It was I believe Malak whom, because he was a brainless cackling big bad (the usual Bioware antagonist) disrupted this plan, damaging and alienating useful planets and assets for no real reason.

 

Kreia also refers to her one time pupil as the burning heart of the force, or some such flattery if I recall correctly. It certainly does not seem that, dark or light side of the force, Revan was treated with anything but respect.

[Gromnir]

Gromnir, I vaguely remember either during TotSC or BG2 development, you stated that you had your secretary monitor the BI Boards and tell you when someone responded for you to reply. Please tell me I am remembering that right.

 

That is absolutely gangsta.

 

 

 

NSFW - Parental advisory.

*chuckle*

 

if we said that, we were joking.  our secretary at the time were a matronly woman who never showed any sign o' having a sense o' humor, which made her genuine affection for Gromnir puzzling.  the number o' times she saved our bacon were beyond counting, and that were in spite o' the fact that we called her "Penguin" when she were being particular humorless, stern or officious.  she never understood the reference, even when we explained.  inexplicably, she liked us anyways. is no way we woulda' ever suggested she monitor game message boards.  can only imagine the kinda chastisement we woulda' suffered for such temerity.  

 

regardless, the Gromnir schtick were mostly a result o' our annoyance o' the interplay boards at the time.  the die-hard regulars were, from our pov, mindlessly antagonistic towards critics o' bg and bioware.  perhaps more curious to us were how frequent new folks with difficulty typing in english, or folks unfamiliar with crpg conventions were mocked and ridiculed, so Gromnir painted a big ol' target on our chest and then jumped into the fray.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps, to explain the penguin bit, we submit the following clip. warning: sweary.

 

[Tale]

Wasn't it Obsidian whom expanded on Revan's strategy, in that his war on the Republic was only targeting non essential structural assets, so that once he had conquered them he could quickly turn the Republic into a war ready state to be used against the true Sith? It was I believe Malak whom, because he was a brainless cackling big bad (the usual Bioware antagonist) disrupted this plan, damaging and alienating useful planets and assets for no real reason.

 

Kreia also refers to her one time pupil as the burning heart of the force, or some such flattery if I recall correctly. It certainly does not seem that, dark or light side of the force, Revan was treated with anything but respect.

Yes.

 

I think people are reading too much into Obsidian's interpretation of the consequences of a Jedi Civil War. How many force users did we kill throughout KOTOR 1? Lightside or darkside ending, there's not going to be many left after all that.

 

I'm still amazed that they bothered to show the consequences of a war like that.

[Gfted1]

*sigh*

 

this is long time ago kinda stuff...

 

Interesting. I never knew that and have occasionally wondered what was the inspiration for "Gromnir".

[HoonDing]

[Harrold Andraste]

Epilepsy alert.